Sky is Falling at USAirways!!

[Lequip]

I have lots of good friends who are at the regionals and they make a good living. They are all RJ Captains at Mesaba, Comair and ZW. The are all making 6 figures. Regional FO's will never make much because there are tons and tons of starving CFI's waiting to replace them and they will work for peanuts just to wear a uniform. Nothing will change until the brain washed wanna be's coming out of UND and ERAU put their foot down and refuse low paying entry level commuter positions....AINT GONNA HAPPEN. If you don't lke it quit and do something else because it's not going to change. The left seat is where the $$ is and thats the way it's always going to be.

 

[wheelsup]

Lequip I disagree with what you say about 'brainwashed' graduates coming out of aviation colleges. The lowest time pilot that I know of was hired out of Riddle to ACA back in the summer of '01 with 275 TT and 25 multi through their 'bridge' program. No it was not PFT, or PFJ, or whatever. It was an internship followed by a job offer after graduation from ERAU.

You're flipping nuts if you're saying that if you were at that total time in the civilian world you would 'reject' the offer just because it didn't pay whatever-your-quota-is per year.

Same thing goes for me. I make about $15,000/yr working as a CFI and pay rent designing websites. If a regional offered me a job with my 700 TT and 85 multi you're **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** straight I'd take it no matter what it paid to fly something bigger with a constant paycheck.

In fact, I don't think the lowering of wages is due to pilots accepting it. As a fact of life, there will always be people accepting $0.01 (or more) less per hour than the guy currently doing whatever it is he does. It's the union's job to keep the wages up. Yes I know pilots vote for contracts, but why vote themselves out of a job? Bend over and smile is what I say, atleast you're flying .

I recently visited a part 91 operator that flies it's own cargo (nevermind what it is, and no it's not drugs ). They START their pilots at $60,000/yr with full bennies and five weeks vacation.

What aircraft do they fly? They have about 15 aircraft, mostly light twins and single engine turbo props. This company realizes the value of their pilots and compensates them accordingly, and as such has almost ZERO turnover. With that comes reduced training costs, and that allows those pilots to get paid that much.

That's what the airlines should be doing. Paying people so much they won't want to leave, and the turnover will suddenly stop. Which will end up saving money in the long run.


~wheelsup

 

[Lequip]

Wheelsup, You just proved my point. You are one of ten thousand aviation graduate CFI's who is dying to get into the airlines and you will enter the field no matter what the pay and benefits and QOL are. Come and play and make peanuts and after a couple years when your still FO with no upgrade in sight you will start bitching about how grossly underpaid you are. As far as the cargo job you mention starting at 60K and going up to 125K flying bugsmashers.....I'm calling Bull-S$%t on that one. If it was / is true you would have mentioned the company as opposed to just making up some crap like you did. Lets hear it, I call your bluff Mr I'm full of crap.

 

[wheelsup]

If I mention the name everyone and their brother would be sending resumes in...which would considerably hurt my chances .

~wheelsup

 

[Lequip]

LMAO, you are so full of it. I see you edited your ogiginal post and took out out the 125K Lie and the 60 days of vacation Lie. Keep teaching and dreaming Fool.

 

[wheelsup]

yeah i thought that gave too much away about the company.

~wheelsup

 

[jetops]

Lear70

Now pay attention, because this is the question we have for you: If YOU PERSONALLY had just spent 4-7 YEARS of your LIFE in college working two jobs just to eat and go to school, and/or assumed tens of thousands of dollars in debt just to get on as a regional airline pilot, just to get paid a wage that qualifies you for food stamps your first year as a "PROFESSIONAL AIRLINE PILOT", would you then CONSIDER YOURSELF FAIRLY PAID??!!



Do you realy think a airline is going to pay you $100,000 dollars a year. Your first year out of flight school .
wow you must realy think that you are god gift to the avation world .

here some fact for you

In 2002, median annual earnings of airline pilots, copilots, and flight engineers were $109,580. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $55,800. Over 25 percent earned more than $145,000.
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

granted when your at a commuter you making less 30,000 per year when you start there . The pay equal out over the long run when your flying the 747/757/767 or airbus.
so when your making $109,580 dollars a year in the near future you were fairly paid .

 

[Lequip]

Jetops, Give it up trying to reason with these Baffoons. Nothing will make them happy. You can give them all 20 days off per month and pay them top $$$ and they will still find someting to complain about. I have my gripes at JBLU but all in all life is pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good.

 

[Lear70]

It's the union's job to keep the wages up. Yes I know pilots vote for contracts, but why vote themselves out of a job?

Yes it is the union’s job, but the line pilots are the ones directing the union in negotiations. The line pilots make their wishes known to their MEC, the MEC directs the negotiating committee what to go after, the negotiating committee brings back a Tentative Agreement to the MEC, if the MEC agrees that it meets the member’s needs that were voiced they send it out for member ratification, then the pilots vote on it.

The “union” isn’t some magic, mysterious force, it’s a group of line pilots who decide to make it their personal responsibility to help their fellow pilots in the traditions passed down by ALPA. Sometimes they do better than others (Comair versus Mesa) but the union doesn’t just “magically” keep wages up.

Vote themselves out of a job? Hardly. Go educate yourself on the effect that regional airline pilot pay has on CASM and how it affects overall profitability at a regional airline and let me know when you’re ready to debate it.

In fact, I don't think the lowering of wages is due to pilots accepting it. As a fact of life, there will always be people accepting $0.01 (or more) less per hour than the guy currently doing whatever it is he does. Bend over and smile is what I say, atleast you're flying .

Thanks for proving my point… “Bend over and smile…”? Why don’t you call Phil Trenary, our President and CEO directly at 901-348-4100 and tell him your thoughts on airline pay. He’ll probably hire you on the spot and ask how many friends you can bring with you. This is EXACTLY what the problem is – too many people willing to work for poverty-level wages making it harder for the rest of the pilots to keep the bar at a respectable level.

At least our new-hires know enough not to openly say this at work if they truly believe it – they’d quickly find themselves doing nothing but slinging the gear and running the radios for a LONG, LONG TIME!

Originally posted by Jetops
Do you realy think a airline is going to pay you $100,000 dollars a year. Your first year out of flight school .
wow you must realy think that you are god gift to the avation world .

Hmmm… Did I say that I thought a pilot straight out of flight school should be paid $100,000? Ummm… No, I didn’t. What I DID say was that a pilot straight out of flight school should NOT have to work at a compensation level that is BELOW THE MEDIAN POVERTY LEVEL as detailed by our Federal Government, nor should he or she qualify for food stamps. Stop putting words in my mouth and argue the points.

here some fact for you

In 2002, median annual earnings of airline pilots, copilots, and flight engineers were $109,580. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $55,800. Over 25 percent earned more than $145,000.
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

Unfortunately, the Bureau of Labor Statistics doesn’t separate Major Airline pay from Low Cost Carrier and Regional Airline pilot pay. Here are the REAL compensation levels you should be comparing (Copyright Kit Darby’s AIR, Inc 2004 Pilot Salary Survey):

Major Airline Median Annual Earnings: $128,520 - 23% of pilot population
Low-Cost Carrier Median Annual Earnings: $96,260 - 9% of pilot population
Regional Airline Median Annual Earnings: $46,660 - 14% of pilot population

The other 54% of pilots fall into the charter, corporate, or flight instructor category.

Incidentally, the average Regional Pilot starting salary is $18,120 per year.

granted when your at a commuter you making less 30,000 per year when you start there . The pay equal out over the long run when your flying the 747/757/767 or airbus.
so when your making $109,580 dollars a year in the near future you were fairly paid .

So now that you understand that starting “commuter” pay is not “just less than 30,000 per year”, but less than $20,000 per year and puts that pilot in the poverty level, let’s do a quick “reality check” at your claim of “in the near future… when you’re flying the 747/757/767/Airbus”:

Take a good, hard look around at the industry; most of us have been at the corporate, charter, or regional level since the early to mid 90’s, an average of 10 – 15 years. There are 7,000+ pilots from the majors on furlough with more to come from USAirways in September. How likely do you think it is that any of us are going to make it into a major airline job in the next 5 years? The next decade maybe? That means we’re stuck here for another 5 – 10 years, and our average compensation is about $50,000. So now HOPEFULLY you understand that pilot pay for the vast majority of us won’t ever reach 6 figures “in the near future”.

Lequip, your friends at the regionals must be VERY senior. 6 figures just doesn’t happen here except to the top 2 or 3 percent of the seniority group and ONLY if they work 90+ hours a month. Just for comparison, here is the industry leader’s 50-seat CRJ Captain pay at 5, 10, and 15 years (Comair) flying an 80 hour line – bear in mind, the rest of us make about 5-7% less than this:

5 year Comair pay: $65.00 per hour, $5,200 per month, $62,400 per year
10 year Comair pay: $80.00 per hour, $6,400 per month, $76,800 per year
15 year Comair pay: $95.00 per hour, $7,600 per month, $90,200 per year

At Comair, no one sees $100 per hour until this coming June with 18+ years seniority and even then you’ll have to work 85+ hours per month to break 6 figures, and that’s regional industry leading pay – the rest of us make less!

p.s. I’ll trade you – you can come make my $55k per year left seat CRJ paycheck flying 92 hours per month and I’ll go fly left seat at Blu making $90k+ at guarantee… Yes, I know, two different types of operations and companies, but things aren’t all rosy over here, there are valid reasons for the griping, b*tching, and general gnashing of teeth…

To all: Bottom line - pilots in all levels of the industry need to demand a fair wage for what they do. Some major airline pilots may be overpaid, granted, but most regionals are vastly underpaid and that needs to change. Starting F/O needs to be around $30,000, 10 year Captain (a 35-year old guy or gal with a family) needs to be 6 figures, and the regionals would STILL be profitable at those levels… just the facts.

 

[Catbird]

"The “union” isn’t some magic, mysterious force, it’s a group of line pilots who decide to make it their personal responsibility to help their fellow pilots in the traditions passed down by ALPA."

If you believe the above statement, please don't move or strain yourself. Call 911 and explain to the dispatcher that your almost brain dead and could they please send the EMT's quickly. On the other hand if you write something such as the above statement, please stay perfectly still and don't call anyone.

 

[SRMairlines]

Lear70:

HIT IT RIGHT ON THE NOSE!

We also need Nat'l ALPA to get their heads out of their a$$ and support the regional pilots. If Duane Woerthless would have not signed the MESA & MESABA TA's and gave them more support in a positive direction, than those MEC's might have had better bargaining power. Granted both unions achieved improvements to their contracts, they would have faired better with more support. ALPA should set a minimum standard for the regional pilots so we can achieve what LEAR70 said...

I was not one of those brainswashed college grads. My first 121 job (right out of und with 900hrs) was with a company "PDT" that had a very good contract and great pay rates for both props and jets (had no jets though but had the jet rate formula). But.........., unfortunately CH 11 changed things and paycuts were forced upon us. Now I find myself at a company that needs to improve on their contract and we need support from everyone to do it.

Most people out of college aren't familiar with the politics of the industry and will accept low pay to have their dreams jobs. Everyone has to start somewhere and it is the job of the pilots that are currently employed to make the job better for those coming in.

 

[jetops]

Jetops, Give it up trying to reason with these Baffoons. Nothing will make them happy. You can give them all 20 days off per month and pay them top $$$ and they will still find someting to complain about. I have my gripes at JBLU but all in all life is pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good.

you are so right in that statement

 

[Lear70]

If you believe the above statement, please don't move or strain yourself. Call 911 and explain to the dispatcher that your almost brain dead and could they please send the EMT's quickly. On the other hand if you write something such as the above statement, please stay perfectly still and don't call anyone.

First, I do believe the above, primarily because at PCL I personally know just about every status rep and have no doubt that their intentions are strictly honorable and in line with the highest standards of professional conduct as a pilot for what they believe is in our common interests for the greater good.

Secondly, you'll notice I said absolutely nothing about ALPA. Obviously you're a supporter of the RJDC and while SOME of the RJDC arguments are very true, the underlying themes that scope should be elliminated and that the regionals should drop ALPA completely is LUDICROUS, unless of course you really WANT to work for a regional the rest of your life...

Third, if you'd like to debate the points of the RJDC, start a different thread, don't hijack this one.

SRMAirlines, keep plugging away, you're exactly right that it's up to us to educate our coworkers and then all of us fight together to make things better, not only for ourselves, but for those who come behind us.

By the way Jetops, nice reply, and thanks for admitting that you have NO intelligent counter-arguments for ANY of my points by posting with a complete lack of anything even resembling a cohesive argument or counter-point.

 

[jetops]

Lear70

Vote themselves out of a job? Hardly. Go educate yourself on the effect that regional airline pilot pay has on CASM and how it affects overall profitability at a regional airline and let me know when you’re ready to debate it.

People don't buy plane ticket based on airline pilot's ,
it based on price .............................

why pay more to fly on american,northworst,overpriced us airways when you can fly on jetblue or southwest . Fa make the the passager experience good or bad ..................



Major Airline Median Annual Earnings: $128,520 - 23% of pilot population
Low-Cost Carrier Median Annual Earnings: $96,260 - 9% of pilot population
Regional Airline Median Annual Earnings: $46,660 - 14% of pilot population

by the number you posted median income even higher than i posted .......................



Incidentally, the average Regional Pilot starting salary is $18,120 per year.

well hate to brake it to you have to start some where.






p.s. I’ll trade you ?you can come make my $55k per year left seat CRJ paycheck flying 92 hours per month and I’ll go fly left seat at Blu making $90k+ at guarantee? Yes, I know, two different types of operations and companies, but things aren’t all rosy over here, there are valid reasons for the griping, b*tching, and general gnashing of teeth?



you sound like unhappy and no matter how much money you make you will not be happy . ..................

 

[Lear70]

Re: Lear70

People don't buy plane ticket based on airline pilot's ,
it based on price .............................

why pay more to fly on american,northworst,overpriced us airways when you can fly on jetblue or southwest . Fa make the the passager experience good or bad ..................

Again, educate yourself on the effect of a regional airline pilot's salary on CASM (that's Cost per Available Seat Mile). You will find out that our salary has very little effect on what an airline ticket costs a passenger. Then again, how about just getting an education?

Major Airline Median Annual Earnings: $128,520 - 23% of pilot population
Low-Cost Carrier Median Annual Earnings: $96,260 - 9% of pilot population
Regional Airline Median Annual Earnings: $46,660 - 14% of pilot population

by the number you posted median income even higher than i posted .......................

No, you posted an average median income for ALL pilots of $109,580. I pointed out that since we were discussing REGIONAL airline pilot's salaries, that it would be appropriate to clarify that the only people who make those six-figure salaries are MAJOR airline pilots or senior LCC pilots. If you don't understand that, then again I suggest you go back to school.

Incidentally, the average Regional Pilot starting salary is $18,120 per year.

well hate to brake it to you have to start some where.

Yes, we do. I suggest we start somewhere between half again that number ($24,000) to double that number ($36,000). That would be comparable to other learned professionals in a skilled workplace.

you sound like unhappy and no matter how much money you make you will not be happy . ..................

You're not getting the point. I wasn't posting about being unhappy, I was correcting your obvious misunderstandings about the aviation industry.

Happiness in this job isn't all about money, but about overall Quality Of Life, which is days off, trip and duty limitations, and corporate culture. I have a great time with my crews and coworkers, but I also know that the quality of time I spend at home with my family is just as important, and two of the larger determiners of home QOL are income and time off, things that are not plentiful at the regional level and need to be rectified. Other than that, I love my career.

I "sound like unhappy"? Jesus man, please get an education before you post any more on these message boards. A good command of the English language is the basis for getting ahead anywhere, including aviation.