Sky is Falling at USAirways!!

[cl65200]

"being that most us carries passager are part 121 8hrs flt time and 16hr duty . a pilot flying most will never have a 24 day . unless he on a heavy crew 18hr max duty or 4 man crew . so if your working 4day on 4 off with a average 12on duty and with a average 3.0 to 7.0 hrs of flt time and 12hrs "....etc,etc


I do not really care how you guyes twist and turn it. The reality is that ground personell gets to go home everyday but aircrew is away from home most of the time. Looking on my last 3 months I averaged 365 hrs pr month from the time I check in at my base, to the time I leave my base. That is 18.25 hrs a day if you count a normal 5 days a week job, so do not complain about my 15 days off a month.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

O.K., I'll bite. Although this should be obvious for any one in the industry. The ramp workers day is generally 8 hours long, and the pilots day is 24 hours, with the duty time exceeding 12 hours on a regular basis. So with that in mind, that 72 hours is actually 275 to 350 a month compared to 160 on average for the ramp worker.

Just wanted to show your comparison was not a good one. [/QUOTE

being that most us carries passager are part 121 8hrs flt time and 16hr duty . a pilot flying most will never have a 24 day . unless he on a heavy crew 18hr max duty or 4 man crew . so if your working 4day on 4 off with a average 12on duty and with a average 3.0 to 7.0 hrs of flt time and 12hrs a day for duty x 4 days =36hrs hrs on duty . being that most carrer do sch 4on 3off ,4on 4off . most sch bids have reverve lines high time line and low times lines don't forget about 1/7 too. in the end . 36hrs duty per week x 4 = 144hrs a month . for the most part pilots make good money for what they do and have more time off that most other people [ramp,crew sch ,dispatcher, other office personel ] in the avation biz
most of the schdules are build with 8-12 duty in a day
just my 02cents in avation and what i seen happen

When that ramp worker is at home with his family, the pilot is sitting in a hotel away from his family. I just flew a 5 day trip, and was at work 100 hours in that five days.Yes, I said at work, as in not home. The ramp worker worked 40 hours that same five days. So, whats your point???


Any one can do the ramp workers job, but it takes a lot of specialized and expensive training to do the pilots job. So again, I ask what's your point???

And don't say the hotel time does not count because that is down time because we all know the ramp worker is idle a lot. That is the nature of what they do. When I leave on a trip, I am at work as in away from home, and I put in a lot more hours than any ramp workrer. That is a fact.

 

[jetops]

my point is ramp personel earn a fair pay for what they do . also pilots earn fair pay for what they do . granted when you at a regional they start pilots and ground pounders at fair pay ,but then you get a major you will make better than average pay for the hours that you work . also if you don't like staying away from home don't be a pilot. It seem's like pilots tend to bitch more than any other group in avation .

 

[General Lee]

Ramp guys get a free tan and also get a free workout (lifting the bags)---so quit whining!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NEDude]

If I remember correctly part of the ramp issue that USAirways has had is that by contract, mechanics have had to be the ones doing pushbacks, not less expensive ramp workers like most other airlines.

 

[CitationLover]

based on the grammar being displayed here, i can see why you are a ramper........please take an english class as it is hard to read your post.

 

[Lear70]

you get a wining pilot that bitching because he only got 13day off this month,and he should had 15 days

being that most carrer do sch 4on 3off ,4on 4off .

so if your working 4 day on 4 off with a average 12on duty and with a average 3.0 to 7.0 hrs of flt time and 12hrs a day for duty x 4 days = 36hrs hrs on duty.

Oh God, it took me five read-throughs with the grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors before I got all of it, but I'll try to respond, even though it appears this may be the flame bait of a 5th grade (that's about the writing level we're working with here).

Jetops, your posts are filled with contradictions, you trip all over yourself from post to post. First, you say that pilots whine because they only got 13 days off instead of 15, then you say that "most carriers do 4 on 3 off, 4 on 4 off which yields 13 - 14 days off, then you post a response wherein the pilot gets 12-13 days off... which is it?

Oh, and by the way, you're "4 day on, 4 day off with an average of 12 hours on duty x 4 days" is 48 hours on duty... (12 times 4 = 5th grade math)

Incidentally, 4 trips at 4 days each times 48 hours of duty each is 192 hours per month, versus your ramp worker's 8 hour day 5 days per week averaging 160 hours per month. In plain English, pilots work more duty hours under your own example! Oh, and we don't get paid for duty hours, just block... would you come to work and get paid for only the hours you're actually throwing a bag or pushing an airplane or would you insist on getting paid from when you clock-in until you clock-out? That's what I thought.

while the pilot core aka people like you with the mentality that some ramp guy makes to much money . most ramp guy make far less than a pilot makes for the same amount of time .they work far more hrs a month .

I just proved that under your own example, ramp workers work far less hours per month, although they do make far less.

the problem with us air is pilots over payed and under worked .

my point is ramp personel earn a fair pay for what they do . also pilots earn fair pay for what they do .

Which one is it? Do pilots earn fair pay or are pilots over-"payed" (incidentally, the word is "paid"). Back on track, are you a US Airways pilot? No. Have you gotten called up to fly on your off days every day you've been off this month? Since you're not a pilot, I'd hazard a guess that answer is "No". US Airways has furloughed to the point that their pilots are working 16-18 days per month on average and receiving 12-14 days off. I wouldn't call that "under-worked" by any stretch of the imagination.

granted when you at a regional they start pilots and ground pounders at fair pay ,but then you get a major you will make better than average pay for the hours that you work .

OK, I had to retype this 3 times to take all the curse words out of my response... At a regional, they start pilots off at fair pay? Put down the crack pipe and pay close attention.

Let's assume you have your G.E.D. and you decide to invest about $3,000 a year at a local in-state college for 4 years to get a degree, that's $12,000. Then you pay another $15,000 to $20,000 to get the half dozen or so different pilot licenses we have to have to fly for an airline. Then you either go out and flight instruct for 2 or 3 years to get the flight time to get on with a regional OR you spend another $25,000 at a PFT school to get an interview with a regional and are lucky enough to get on.

Now pay attention, because this is the question we have for you: If YOU PERSONALLY had just spent 4-7 YEARS of your LIFE in college working two jobs just to eat and go to school, and/or assumed tens of thousands of dollars in debt just to get on as a regional airline pilot, just to get paid a wage that qualifies you for food stamps your first year as a "PROFESSIONAL AIRLINE PILOT", would you then CONSIDER YOURSELF FAIRLY PAID??!!

Until you've walked a mile in a pilot's shoes, and I say this in the nicest way, why don't you have a big steaming cup of STFU and leave this board to the people who live in the real world?

 

[JohnDoe]

jetops:

If you are going to try and argue your point in a forum, you should make sure your arguements are, at minimum, coherent and readable by your target audience. Not contradicting yourself is also a "good thing."

"also pilots earn fair pay for what they do . "

So which is it?? Are they "underworked and overpaid" or do they earn fair pay??

". also if you don't like staying away from home don't be a pilot. "

See.....there you go again. That logic works against you as well.
If you have a problem with the salaries and supposed time off pilots have when compared to yourself and others, you can fix that. You can become a pilot. You have that choice.

 

[ALPO]

Pilots are gone from home average 72 hours a week, that doesn't even compare to a rampers 40, they are unskilled workers. They are the main reason USAir can not compete with JetBlue's and Southwest's cost, the pilots are paid close to the same per seat mile as the low cost carriers.

 

[Sky_Goddess]

Regional Pilot Pay......FA Pay.........Ramper Pay

Ok people...if you are a regional pilot or FA none of us make any money....and you all know it, espesially Mesa shooting themselves in the foot. And if you people are talking about Ramper for instance PSA in PIT, they work **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hard they are very good, and start at seven dollars an hour with no insurance etc.
None of us make any money and yes we are gone from home a lot, and that does count, bottom line we all need raises, we ALL work for subpar wages....

 

[Lequip]

I have lots of good friends who are at the regionals and they make a good living. They are all RJ Captains at Mesaba, Comair and ZW. The are all making 6 figures. Regional FO's will never make much because there are tons and tons of starving CFI's waiting to replace them and they will work for peanuts just to wear a uniform. Nothing will change until the brain washed wanna be's coming out of UND and ERAU put their foot down and refuse low paying entry level commuter positions....AINT GONNA HAPPEN. If you don't lke it quit and do something else because it's not going to change. The left seat is where the $$ is and thats the way it's always going to be.

 

[wheelsup]

Lequip I disagree with what you say about 'brainwashed' graduates coming out of aviation colleges. The lowest time pilot that I know of was hired out of Riddle to ACA back in the summer of '01 with 275 TT and 25 multi through their 'bridge' program. No it was not PFT, or PFJ, or whatever. It was an internship followed by a job offer after graduation from ERAU.

You're flipping nuts if you're saying that if you were at that total time in the civilian world you would 'reject' the offer just because it didn't pay whatever-your-quota-is per year.

Same thing goes for me. I make about $15,000/yr working as a CFI and pay rent designing websites. If a regional offered me a job with my 700 TT and 85 multi you're **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** straight I'd take it no matter what it paid to fly something bigger with a constant paycheck.

In fact, I don't think the lowering of wages is due to pilots accepting it. As a fact of life, there will always be people accepting $0.01 (or more) less per hour than the guy currently doing whatever it is he does. It's the union's job to keep the wages up. Yes I know pilots vote for contracts, but why vote themselves out of a job? Bend over and smile is what I say, atleast you're flying .

I recently visited a part 91 operator that flies it's own cargo (nevermind what it is, and no it's not drugs ). They START their pilots at $60,000/yr with full bennies and five weeks vacation.

What aircraft do they fly? They have about 15 aircraft, mostly light twins and single engine turbo props. This company realizes the value of their pilots and compensates them accordingly, and as such has almost ZERO turnover. With that comes reduced training costs, and that allows those pilots to get paid that much.

That's what the airlines should be doing. Paying people so much they won't want to leave, and the turnover will suddenly stop. Which will end up saving money in the long run.


~wheelsup

 

[Lequip]

Wheelsup, You just proved my point. You are one of ten thousand aviation graduate CFI's who is dying to get into the airlines and you will enter the field no matter what the pay and benefits and QOL are. Come and play and make peanuts and after a couple years when your still FO with no upgrade in sight you will start bitching about how grossly underpaid you are. As far as the cargo job you mention starting at 60K and going up to 125K flying bugsmashers.....I'm calling Bull-S$%t on that one. If it was / is true you would have mentioned the company as opposed to just making up some crap like you did. Lets hear it, I call your bluff Mr I'm full of crap.

 

[wheelsup]

If I mention the name everyone and their brother would be sending resumes in...which would considerably hurt my chances .

~wheelsup

 

[Lequip]

LMAO, you are so full of it. I see you edited your ogiginal post and took out out the 125K Lie and the 60 days of vacation Lie. Keep teaching and dreaming Fool.

 

[wheelsup]

yeah i thought that gave too much away about the company.

~wheelsup

 

[jetops]

Lear70

Now pay attention, because this is the question we have for you: If YOU PERSONALLY had just spent 4-7 YEARS of your LIFE in college working two jobs just to eat and go to school, and/or assumed tens of thousands of dollars in debt just to get on as a regional airline pilot, just to get paid a wage that qualifies you for food stamps your first year as a "PROFESSIONAL AIRLINE PILOT", would you then CONSIDER YOURSELF FAIRLY PAID??!!



Do you realy think a airline is going to pay you $100,000 dollars a year. Your first year out of flight school .
wow you must realy think that you are god gift to the avation world .

here some fact for you

In 2002, median annual earnings of airline pilots, copilots, and flight engineers were $109,580. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $55,800. Over 25 percent earned more than $145,000.
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

granted when your at a commuter you making less 30,000 per year when you start there . The pay equal out over the long run when your flying the 747/757/767 or airbus.
so when your making $109,580 dollars a year in the near future you were fairly paid .

 

[Lequip]

Jetops, Give it up trying to reason with these Baffoons. Nothing will make them happy. You can give them all 20 days off per month and pay them top $$$ and they will still find someting to complain about. I have my gripes at JBLU but all in all life is pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good.

 

[Lear70]

It's the union's job to keep the wages up. Yes I know pilots vote for contracts, but why vote themselves out of a job?

Yes it is the union’s job, but the line pilots are the ones directing the union in negotiations. The line pilots make their wishes known to their MEC, the MEC directs the negotiating committee what to go after, the negotiating committee brings back a Tentative Agreement to the MEC, if the MEC agrees that it meets the member’s needs that were voiced they send it out for member ratification, then the pilots vote on it.

The “union” isn’t some magic, mysterious force, it’s a group of line pilots who decide to make it their personal responsibility to help their fellow pilots in the traditions passed down by ALPA. Sometimes they do better than others (Comair versus Mesa) but the union doesn’t just “magically” keep wages up.

Vote themselves out of a job? Hardly. Go educate yourself on the effect that regional airline pilot pay has on CASM and how it affects overall profitability at a regional airline and let me know when you’re ready to debate it.

In fact, I don't think the lowering of wages is due to pilots accepting it. As a fact of life, there will always be people accepting $0.01 (or more) less per hour than the guy currently doing whatever it is he does. Bend over and smile is what I say, atleast you're flying .

Thanks for proving my point… “Bend over and smile…”? Why don’t you call Phil Trenary, our President and CEO directly at 901-348-4100 and tell him your thoughts on airline pay. He’ll probably hire you on the spot and ask how many friends you can bring with you. This is EXACTLY what the problem is – too many people willing to work for poverty-level wages making it harder for the rest of the pilots to keep the bar at a respectable level.

At least our new-hires know enough not to openly say this at work if they truly believe it – they’d quickly find themselves doing nothing but slinging the gear and running the radios for a LONG, LONG TIME!

Originally posted by Jetops
Do you realy think a airline is going to pay you $100,000 dollars a year. Your first year out of flight school .
wow you must realy think that you are god gift to the avation world .

Hmmm… Did I say that I thought a pilot straight out of flight school should be paid $100,000? Ummm… No, I didn’t. What I DID say was that a pilot straight out of flight school should NOT have to work at a compensation level that is BELOW THE MEDIAN POVERTY LEVEL as detailed by our Federal Government, nor should he or she qualify for food stamps. Stop putting words in my mouth and argue the points.

here some fact for you

In 2002, median annual earnings of airline pilots, copilots, and flight engineers were $109,580. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $55,800. Over 25 percent earned more than $145,000.
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

Unfortunately, the Bureau of Labor Statistics doesn’t separate Major Airline pay from Low Cost Carrier and Regional Airline pilot pay. Here are the REAL compensation levels you should be comparing (Copyright Kit Darby’s AIR, Inc 2004 Pilot Salary Survey):

Major Airline Median Annual Earnings: $128,520 - 23% of pilot population
Low-Cost Carrier Median Annual Earnings: $96,260 - 9% of pilot population
Regional Airline Median Annual Earnings: $46,660 - 14% of pilot population

The other 54% of pilots fall into the charter, corporate, or flight instructor category.

Incidentally, the average Regional Pilot starting salary is $18,120 per year.

granted when your at a commuter you making less 30,000 per year when you start there . The pay equal out over the long run when your flying the 747/757/767 or airbus.
so when your making $109,580 dollars a year in the near future you were fairly paid .

So now that you understand that starting “commuter” pay is not “just less than 30,000 per year”, but less than $20,000 per year and puts that pilot in the poverty level, let’s do a quick “reality check” at your claim of “in the near future… when you’re flying the 747/757/767/Airbus”:

Take a good, hard look around at the industry; most of us have been at the corporate, charter, or regional level since the early to mid 90’s, an average of 10 – 15 years. There are 7,000+ pilots from the majors on furlough with more to come from USAirways in September. How likely do you think it is that any of us are going to make it into a major airline job in the next 5 years? The next decade maybe? That means we’re stuck here for another 5 – 10 years, and our average compensation is about $50,000. So now HOPEFULLY you understand that pilot pay for the vast majority of us won’t ever reach 6 figures “in the near future”.

Lequip, your friends at the regionals must be VERY senior. 6 figures just doesn’t happen here except to the top 2 or 3 percent of the seniority group and ONLY if they work 90+ hours a month. Just for comparison, here is the industry leader’s 50-seat CRJ Captain pay at 5, 10, and 15 years (Comair) flying an 80 hour line – bear in mind, the rest of us make about 5-7% less than this:

5 year Comair pay: $65.00 per hour, $5,200 per month, $62,400 per year
10 year Comair pay: $80.00 per hour, $6,400 per month, $76,800 per year
15 year Comair pay: $95.00 per hour, $7,600 per month, $90,200 per year

At Comair, no one sees $100 per hour until this coming June with 18+ years seniority and even then you’ll have to work 85+ hours per month to break 6 figures, and that’s regional industry leading pay – the rest of us make less!

p.s. I’ll trade you – you can come make my $55k per year left seat CRJ paycheck flying 92 hours per month and I’ll go fly left seat at Blu making $90k+ at guarantee… Yes, I know, two different types of operations and companies, but things aren’t all rosy over here, there are valid reasons for the griping, b*tching, and general gnashing of teeth…

To all: Bottom line - pilots in all levels of the industry need to demand a fair wage for what they do. Some major airline pilots may be overpaid, granted, but most regionals are vastly underpaid and that needs to change. Starting F/O needs to be around $30,000, 10 year Captain (a 35-year old guy or gal with a family) needs to be 6 figures, and the regionals would STILL be profitable at those levels… just the facts.

 

[Catbird]

"The “union” isn’t some magic, mysterious force, it’s a group of line pilots who decide to make it their personal responsibility to help their fellow pilots in the traditions passed down by ALPA."

If you believe the above statement, please don't move or strain yourself. Call 911 and explain to the dispatcher that your almost brain dead and could they please send the EMT's quickly. On the other hand if you write something such as the above statement, please stay perfectly still and don't call anyone.