SIOUX (anti-GJ rally)

[redbook]

Negotiations like those you had with TSA holdings have taken place at other airlines, most accepted concessions and less than favorable contract provisions to get or keep the flying in house. TSA's MEC and pilot group did not! Your mistake, game over!

If this country was made up of people with your kind of courage we would all be speaking German.

 

[jetfo]

some refresher for you...this is what g0jet is all about.


ALPA President to Trans States Management: We'll Cooperate, but We're Not Backing Down
ST LOUIS, MO - The head of the union that represents pilots at St. Louis-based Trans States Airlines today told pilots at a rally at Lambert Airport that the union is taking a carrot-and-stick approach to resolving labor issues at the airline.
"I have come here today to personally issue a public challenge to your management to alter the course that they have taken in dealing with their pilots," said Capt. Duane Woerth, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, International, in remarks prepared for the rally.
"I have come to challenge them to work cooperatively with our union to help build this airline for the future. And I have come to offer to help promote new business opportunities for this airline and new job opportunities for its ALPA pilots. I am convinced that, together, we can build Trans States into a strong, solid company for decades to come," Woerth said.
"I have also come here to draw public attention to the fact that, sadly, our efforts to discuss the issues before us in cooperation with the company have, to date, met with little to no success. Using only the most tenuous thread of justification, Trans States management has sought to create an alter-ego carrier that they intend to staff with pilots not sheltered by an ALPA-bargained contract," he said.
"In response to this tactic, we have been forced to file a grievance concerning this alter-ego carrier, because management has made it clear that ************************* exists solely to evade ALPA and the TSA-ALPA agreement. The clearest proof? Management's premature and illegal attempt to install a separate union before ************************* employs any pilots or begins operations.

Thank you for bringing up DW's speech at a rally that took place before the single carrier petition was adjudicated.

Since then not a peep from ALPA national or DW. In fact they advertised the new GJ positions on the ALPA website until GJ voted to be represented by IBT.

The real facts are that you had a poorly drafted contract that enabled not TSA, but "TSA Holdings" to start another carrier. You and/or your MEC was overconfident thinking you guys could prevail in a single carrier petition and consequently played your cards wrong.

ALPA failed you, your MEC failed you, TSA mgmt failed you and you failed yourself.

Too bad, this is just another bad precedent set in this industry, due to sloppy drafting of a contract and poor advice by your MEC and ALPA, leading you guys into making a bad decision.

The only good thing that may come of this that we will all be more careful in reviewing our respective contract language and provisions in the future to prevent such loopholes at our carriers.

Regardless, good luck guys! I am tired of beating a dead horse, lets move on to what can be done better in the future.

 

[jetfo]

If this country was made up of people with your kind of courage we would all be speaking German.

Sieg Heil ;-)

Actually, German as the official language of the colonies was voted down by one vote.

By the way, courage is not contesting and brooding over that which you can no longer change, but in advocating your point of view more effectively in future circumstances to reach better results.

 

[jetfo]

As a sidenote Redbook, you post your flight time being 8700 hours and say you fly the ERJ.

You must be a Captain at TSA by now. If you don't mind my asking, what the hell are you still doing there?

Instead of posting this TSA/GJ nonsense you should be filling out apps and moving on. Just a thought.

 

[redbook]

Sieg Heil ;-)

Actually, German as the official language of the colonies was voted down by one vote.

By the way, courage is not contesting and brooding over that which you can no longer change, but in advocating your point of view more effectively in future circumstances to reach better results.

Guess we have different dictionaries and definitions of courage.

Courage = Advocating your point of view? WTF?

You really think g0jet is so invulnerable? TSH management will sell them down the river in a heartbeat.

 

[jetfo]

Guess we have different dictionaries and definitions of courage.

Courage = Advocating your point of view? WTF?

You really think g0jet is so invulnerable? TSH management will sell them down the river in a heartbeat.

I don't think they are so invulnerable and I agree that TSH would sell them down the river if it suits them. I just doubt they are going away anytime soon.

Again, I am not an advocate of what has happened at TSH. It has set another bad precedent. I just don't think there is any point to this GJ bashing, and fighting other pilots and denying jumpseats is unprofessional and counterproductive.

The adversary in this industry is management, unfortunately. And, I have said it before, you will gain more insight and ammunition to use in your fight with management when you have GJ pilots riding in your jumpseat and vice versa and sharing information against your common adversary.

I think you guys made a mistake when you began this conflict with the GJ pilots. Had this animosity not existed, or been directed toward TSH, they might have voted ALPA in and there may have been a way down the road in combining the seniority list. Now, with IBT there I doubt that's possible.

From what I heard, I wouldn't like the management TSH, either TSA or GJ, but then I am not fond of the management at my carrier either.

 

[redbook]

I don't think they are so invulnerable and I agree that TSH would sell them down the river if it suits them. I just doubt they are going away anytime soon.

Again, I am not an advocate of what has happened at TSH. It has set another bad precedent. I just don't think there is any point to this GJ bashing, and fighting other pilots and denying jumpseats is unprofessional and counterproductive.

The adversary in this industry is management, unfortunately. And, I have said it before, you will gain more insight and ammunition to use in your fight with management when you have GJ pilots riding in your jumpseat and vice versa and sharing information against your common adversary.

I think you guys made a mistake when you began this conflict with the GJ pilots. Had this animosity not existed, or been directed toward TSH, they might have voted ALPA in and there may have been a way down the road in combining the seniority list. Now, with IBT there I doubt that's possible.

From what I heard, I wouldn't like the management TSH, either TSA or GJ, but then I am not fond of the management at my carrier either.

TSH MANAGEMENT INSTALLED the IBT at g0jet. They recruited a few management pilots with "special deals" to go to g0jet with the understanding that the teamsters would be brought in ASAP. They even attempted to do it earlier than was legally possible and got slapped on the wrist.

G0jet pilots knew what they were doing in joining the alter ego whipsaw carrier. THe company made no secret of their intentions.

The tsa pilots had rallies, picketing etc..before g0jet launched. There is no reason to pretend to like those that deliberately stabbed us in the back.

 

[jetfo]

TSH MANAGEMENT INSTALLED the IBT at g0jet. They recruited a few management pilots with "special deals" to go to g0jet with the understanding that the teamsters would be brought in ASAP. They even attempted to do it earlier than was legally possible and got slapped on the wrist.

G0jet pilots knew what they were doing in joining the alter ego whipsaw carrier. THe company made no secret of their intentions.

The tsa pilots had rallies, picketing etc..before g0jet launched. There is no reason to pretend to like those that deliberately stabbed us in the back.

I know you probably know more than I do, but you have to agree that ALPA and your MEC dropped the ball, both with the poorly drafted contract and not figuring out a way to keep the flying on one seniority list.

I don't doubt the TSH mgmt planned to screw you guys, but you did have a chance to have one list. I know you turned it down because it was a lousy deal, but get the flying and then argue about pay rates later.

Why would TSH have offered the TSA pilot group the flying and put it up for a vote if they had other plans all along. They didn't have to do that. They could have just gone and start carrier number two without giving you guys the option.

In any event, even if some of the original management pilots that moved over to GJ were in collusion with TSH and their nefarious plans, the new guys taking a job there now had nothing to do with this and you can't expect them to fight your war.

 

[temcgrew]

You guys need to get a life, get your upgrade and time whereever you are and move on. A dump regional is just that and there is no point wasting any more time or effort there than you have to.

How many captains are at G0JET? well, for that many TSA pilots, it will take alot longer to upgrade. and just where do you suggest that EVERY regional pilot move on to? There isn't very many companies to "move on" to!! I've had my apps in at 6 major airlines for about 3 years now. It's very likely that I will spend a career at this "DUMP REGIONAL". I appreciate the insult and so do hundreds of good people who have spent careers at companies like this.

It began with your stupid jumpseat war that you tried to instigate, trying get other regional captains to also deny jumpseats to GJ pilots. I say other regional captains, because no mainline captain would support this, or care. They just want to get back and forth to work on whomever.

We didn't try to get anyone else to deny the jumpseat, it just happened. Others new what g0jet really meant to the pilot group at TSA. Like I said, it took opportunities away from us to upgrade. It wasn't just the regionals that supported us, I've heard of many guys commuting on LUV that had the crews ask about GJ and say that they were taking part in the "stupid" jumpseat wars.

If you do not work at G0JET then why are you defending them so much and putting down all of the TSA pilots who are upset with good cause?

 

[TSA ERJ]

It wasn't just about pay rates. You should familiarize yourself with their proposal before commenting. The proposal would have given the GJ guys furlough protection as well as other items that kept this from truely being a combined list. This was not managements good will offer to their beloved pilots, it was executing what GJ was implemented to do, harm labor. The people who have and will go to GJ are enablers of TSA management and are complicit in their actions. They are just as bad as management and are actively pursuing jobs that are positioned to harm not only TSA but other regional pilots as well. They are not innocent pawns, they knew what they were getting into and made the decision to be a part of managements plans. We don't expect them to help us fight the war, they have already positioned themselves on the side of the enemy.

 

[redbook]

I know you probably know more than I do, but you have to agree that ALPA and your MEC dropped the ball, both with the poorly drafted contract and not figuring out a way to keep the flying on one seniority list.

I don't doubt the TSH mgmt planned to screw you guys, but you did have a chance to have one list. I know you turned it down because it was a lousy deal, but get the flying and then argue about pay rates later.

Why would TSH have offered the TSA pilot group the flying and put it up for a vote if they had other plans all along. They didn't have to do that. They could have just gone and start carrier number two without giving you guys the option.

In any event, even if some of the original management pilots that moved over to GJ were in collusion with TSH and their nefarious plans, the new guys taking a job there now had nothing to do with this and you can't expect them to fight your war.

TSH offered the g0jet flying in exchange for a four year contract extension.

Our contract had already been extended for two years previously. It was a substandard or charitably speaking, barely standard contract when it was first negotiated, as a four year contract.

If we had taken the deal offered, the substandard four year contract would have become a ten year contract. (original 4 year + 2 year extension + 4 year extension)And then the company would have found a way to make it a 12 year or 14 year contract. So it wasn't as simple as "get the flying and worry about the pay rates later."

You are right; ALPA failed us. The original two year extension was signed without tightening scope language. Hindsight.

I am still not sure why you think tsa pilots should turn a blind eye to g0jet pilots.

 

[redbook]

It wasn't just about pay rates. You should familiarize yourself with their proposal before commenting. The proposal would have given the GJ guys furlough protection as well as other items that kept this from truely being a combined list. This was not managements good will offer to their beloved pilots, it was executing what GJ was implemented to do, harm labor. The people who have and will go to GJ are enablers of TSA management and are complicit in their actions. They are just as bad as management and are actively pursuing jobs that are positioned to harm not only TSA but other regional pilots as well. They are not innocent pawns, they knew what they were getting into and made the decision to be a part of managements plans. We don't expect them to help us fight the war, they have already positioned themselves on the side of the enemy.

Thank you TSA ERJ, well said.

 

[temcgrew]

I don't doubt the TSH mgmt planned to screw you guys, but you did have a chance to have one list. I know you turned it down because it was a lousy deal, but get the flying and then argue about pay rates later.

Why would TSH have offered the TSA pilot group the flying and put it up for a vote if they had other plans all along. They didn't have to do that. They could have just gone and start carrier number two without giving you guys the option.

Have you JUST NOW heard about this situation?

Of course TSH set out to keep the company seperate!!! It's simple and the CP was overheard saying that there is no way this pilot group will vote in favor of this contract. They gave us a crappy contract and then were worried that we would vote it in. They know the MEC very well, and sent a crappy contract for the express reason of it fail.

I thought the same thing when you said "get the flying then worry about pay later", but now I see that if we would have done that, we would have been every regional airlines enemy and instigating the "race to the bottom".

 

[temcgrew]

If you don't mind my asking, what the hell are you still doing there?

Instead of posting this TSA/GJ nonsense you should be filling out apps and moving on. Just a thought.

There you go again about the "move on" crap. Is that all it takes, to just fill out apps and move on? Wow, have I missed that one!!!

 

[waterski_heavy]

Have you JUST NOW heard about this situation?

Of course TSH set out to keep the company seperate!!! It's simple and the CP was overheard saying that there is no way this pilot group will vote in favor of this contract. They gave us a crappy contract and then were worried that we would vote it in. They know the MEC very well, and sent a crappy contract for the express reason of it fail.

I thought the same thing when you said "get the flying then worry about pay later", but now I see that if we would have done that, we would have been every regional airlines enemy and instigating the "race to the bottom".

Nobody at GJ wants to hurt anyone at tsa....we were all pulling for you to get the contract that continental offered...we are mature enough to realize that the us versus them attitude is what has put the aviation industry in the hurt it is.....as far as our contract negotiations.....you name another airline that I could go to and make 56 dollars an hour after being employed by three months.....I have spent many a night murking around in lousy equipment delivering checks all over the country and have finely honed my flying skills and am taking an opportunity that presented itself. I cant help that tsa pilots didnt see this as a great chance for them and decided to stay where right where they are at.....if you are unhappy than do something about it....i quit the last miserable job that i had before I had a job to go to but that is just me.....if i dont like something, than i move on....it is a lot easier than being a miserable person......I suggest you do the same. Go bag some groceries that is probably where you belong instead of spreading your misery all over this website......by the way....you wont hurt my career one bit because miserable people dont have any power.

 

[temcgrew]

you name another airline that I could go to and make 56 dollars an hour after being employed by three months

CLASSIC!! At TSA it takes about 3-4 years!! I don't need to say anything else, you guys have dug your grave and with comments like that are just making it deeper.

......I suggest you do the same. Go bag some groceries that is probably where you belong instead of spreading your misery all over this website......by the way....you wont hurt my career one bit because miserable people dont have any power.

What motivational speaker said that? 56 dollars an hour and you are able to go to seminars? I'm not worried about you guys at G0jet, TSH will take care of you.

 

[jetfo]

If you do not work at G0JET then why are you defending them so much and putting down all of the TSA pilots who are upset with good cause?

I am not trying to put down TSA pilots. I know you guys got screwed. My only point is that your jumpseat actions and GJ pilot bashing and intimidation by a few on this board are misdirected and unprofessional.

Ultimately, TSH management did this to you and it sucks. As far as moving on, I know it doesn't seem like it, but things will go forward again and more and more regional guys will move to the majors again and that's what I would focus on if I were at your or any other regional.

Good Luck to all of you guys at TSA!

 

[temcgrew]

I am not trying to put down TSA pilots. I know you guys got screwed. My only point is that your jumpseat actions and GJ pilot bashing and intimidation by a few on this board are misdirected and unprofessional.

There really wasn't a "jumpseat war" like you think. There were, unfortunately, a few crews who tried to deny some g0jet guys a seat on a TSA flight. The G0jet guys were riding on a company pass and the crews were dealt with by management. Nobody is forcing any other crew at any other airline to deny a jumpseat, so if it happens outside of TSA, it is simply out of the kindness of their hearts to support us.

Ultimately, TSH management did this to you and it sucks. As far as moving on, I know it doesn't seem like it, but things will go forward again and more and more regional guys will move to the majors again and that's what I would focus on if I were at your or any other regional.

I agree with you, but when seniority is everything in the airlines, and we all want to move on and obtain a seniority number at LUV, CAL, JBLUE, AIRTRAN, B9 etc....don't you think its a bit frustrating when someone takes a job at a company that was started like g0jet was and then say "where else can you make 56 buck and hour in 3 months?" It slows down guys from getting PIC time and making more money while waiting for that "dream job" that may or may not come to them. As far as I'm concerned, this whole deal has kept me from making more money at TSA. (notice that I didn't say..."they took money out of my pocket".)


Thanks for your kind words.

 

[jetfo]

TSH offered the g0jet flying in exchange for a four year contract extension.

Our contract had already been extended for two years previously. It was a substandard or charitably speaking, barely standard contract when it was first negotiated, as a four year contract.

If we had taken the deal offered, the substandard four year contract would have become a ten year contract. (original 4 year + 2 year extension + 4 year extension)And then the company would have found a way to make it a 12 year or 14 year contract. So it wasn't as simple as "get the flying and worry about the pay rates later."

You are right; ALPA failed us. The original two year extension was signed without tightening scope language. Hindsight.

I am still not sure why you think tsa pilots should turn a blind eye to g0jet pilots.

Ok, thanks, that's more information than I had before. I still wish you guys would have gotten the flying! I don't know exactly how bad it would have been and what COLA or other increased were built into your contract, and if that would have been less of a problem with more chances of advancement had you gotten the flying.

I guess I can understand how you may dislike GJ pilots, but I still think you are misdirecting your frustration. It is ultimately TSH management, along with poor contract language which let them get away with it, that is to blame.

Regardless, best of luck!

 

[temcgrew]

I am still not sure why you think tsa pilots should turn a blind eye to g0jet pilots.

This is why we shouldn't!

you name another airline that I could go to and make 56 dollars an hour after being employed by three months.....

This is why Waterski Heavy went to g0jet.