SIM time and Total Time

[hogdriver00]

Can Sim time be counted towards total time? Does it depend on the type of sim?

 

[nosehair]

No. The term "Total Time" infers "Total Flight Time". Sim time is never flight time. It can be used to meet certain certificate/rating time requirements, in leu of some of the flight time requirements, but is still not counted as a part of the "total time". It can only be logged as "sim time" and "dual time".

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Level D would still be considered sim time. Any other sims commonly found around training centers like Frascas (FTD) and PC's (PCATD) won't count towards TT either.

 

[hogdriver00]

Sim Time

Thanks guys

 

[CJCCapt]

FAA Interpretation of 61.51

The previous poster is correct.

The FAA used to have a wonderful FAQ document on their website. It has been removed. I was fortunate to have copied it before they did. This is from version #16, 12/12/2001, put together by Allan Pinkston at the FAA in Washington. The question was asked and answered as follows (I have bolded pertinent statements by Mr. Pinkston):

"QUESTION: Don't have a specific example, but can you give me the low down on how flight simulator and flight training device time can be logged (flight time, pic, sic, night, x-c, etc.) in a persons log book.

ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(b)(1)(iv), (b)(3)(iii), (g)(4), and (h)(1) and §61.51(a)(1) and (2); But keep in mind the requirements for logging time is only required for the purposes stated in §61.51(a)(1) and (2). As per §61.51(a)(1) and (2), it states:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

I also direct you to the definition of “flight training” as per §61.1(b)(6) which states: “Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.” Emphasis added “in flight in an aircraft.” And furthermore, §61.51(h)(1) addresses logging of training time as “A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.”

However, time in a flight simulator or flight training device CANNOT be logged as “flight time” or as “PIC time” or as “SIC time” or as “night time” or as “daytime” or as “cross country time” or as time in an “aircraft category, class, or type.” Time in a flight simulator or flight training device can only be logged in the columns noted as “Flight Simulator or Flight Training Device” time and “Dual Received” time. And in most logbooks, the person has to write in the notation “FS/FTD” as a heading on one of the extra columns. And in some logbooks they do have a column noted as “Synthetic Trainer.”

Now, where the FARs specifically permit it [i.e., §61.57(c)(1) and (d)(1)(ii), §61.58(e), §61.65(e), §61.109(i), §61.129(i), §61.157(i), §61.187(c)(2), etc.], time in a flight simulator or flight training device can be credited in lieu of the required flight time towards meeting the total aeronautical experience or recency of experience, but it CANNOT be logged as flight time.

For example, an ATP applicant with 1,475 hours total time as a pilot in aircraft that includes at least 500 hours cross-country and 100 hours night, but only 50 hours instrument flight time would meet minimum aeronautical experience using 25 hours instrument training in a flight simulator or flight training device (FTD) in accordance with §61.156(a)(3)(iii). Though the 25 hours in the sim/FTD can not logged as flight time, it may be used in lieu of flight time for the minimum aeronautical experience requirement of 1,500 hours total time. But, only because it is allowed under §61.156(a)(3)(iii)..."

Also note that there is no definition in the 14 CFR for "total time". From an FAA perspective it doesn't exist. In our logbooks the column we commonly refer to as "total time" actually says "total duration of flight". All time in this column must occur in flight (defined as from first movement out of the blocks, with intention to fly, to setting the parking park into the blocks at the end of the flight - pre-start, engine warm-up, and engine shutdown doesn't count).

However, there is a definition for "Pilot time" in 61.51(b)(12) which states "...means that time in which a person - (i) serves as a required pilot flight crewmember; (ii) receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or (iii) gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device."

My logbook does not have, nor do any that I've seen, a preprinted column for "pilot time". You could add one to a blank column if you wanted. "Pilot time" is as close to the undefined "total time" as you can get.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The previous poster is correct.

The FAA used to have a wonderful FAQ document on their website. It has been removed.

It ws removed because of inaccuracies, sometimes very big ones.

 

[Way2Broke]

Question: I used some sim time towards my ATP per part 61.159(a), 142.1, and 121.400. The examiner I used made me count it towards total time in order to use to towards the ATP. So I made a "correction" line in my logbook. Now I want to remove that time from my total time. Would you just make another "correction" line removing the time? What would you write under the Remarks explaining why you did it?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Question: I used some sim time towards my ATP per part 61.159(a), 142.1, and 121.400. The examiner I used made me count it towards total time in order to use to towards the ATP. So I made a "correction" line in my logbook. Now I want to remove that time from my total time. Would you just make another "correction" line removing the time? What would you write under the Remarks explaining why you did it?

"Totals Time adjusted to reflect flight time only."

That's the problem. I don't think the examiner should have asked you to change your logbook to begin with. Jumping off nosehai'sr post, there really isn't any such thing as "total time." It's either total "flight" time or total "pilot" time. Total "pilot" time includes sim time; total "flight" time does not. Most logbooks (and when they don't, most pilots) reserve the total time column for total "flight" time for practical reasons as much as legal. Asking you to change a standard "bookkeeping method" for one checkride is silly.

 

[nosehair]

I don't think the examiner should have asked you to change your logbook to begin with. Jumping off nosehai'sr post, there really isn't any such thing as "total time."

In the examiner's defense, if he is as old as I am, there once was a "total time" concept. Back when 4 engine airplanes had 'flight engineers', and overseas flights had 'navigators', there was sich a thing as legal 'air time' which was not 'pilot time', and I think I remember that these times could be a part of the 'total time' required for the ATP.
So I think maybe this old guy was still operating off of that concept.

 

[Way2Broke]

In the examiner's defense, if he is as old as I am, there once was a "total time" concept. Back when 4 engine airplanes had 'flight engineers', and overseas flights had 'navigators', there was sich a thing as legal 'air time' which was not 'pilot time', and I think I remember that these times could be a part of the 'total time' required for the ATP.
So I think maybe this old guy was still operating off of that concept.

You can still use certain simulator time towards the toal time required for the ATP. See the above quoted regs (two posts above). I was in a pinch to get the ATP on time for a job that I was interviewing for and used the sim time towards the ATP total time requirement. I even called the FSDO before doing so to make sure they agreed with using the time, however it was the examiner alone that requested the change. He wanted to see the total time column add up to above 1500. Anyhow, when you are doing a check ride of any type and the examiner wants you to do something my experience has shown that it is best to agree with it unless you are very confident that you can change a old timers mind (impossible).

The same examiner tried to bust me for doing my circling approach with right traffic, instead of left traffic. He said that when doing a circling approach you have to enter the appropriate traffic pattern. It was a VOR approach at a uncontrolled airport, that had no one else in the pattern. When we broke out, dead on the radial, we were established perfectly for a right midfield downwind, so that is exactly what I did. And trust me, there was no convincing him otherwise. He "let it go" and said that I learned something from it.....whatever that means.