SIC Time Counting in Regional Interview?

[xdashdriver]

Part 61 controls what can and cannot be logged by a pilot. Let's not confuse what can be legally LOGGED with what a specific company may allow you to COUNT to meet their specific requirements.

Part 121, two typed guys up front (like SWA), right-seat pilot can log PIC per sole manipulator if he's flying, left seat pilot (assuming he's the one that signed for the machine) can log PIC because he's acting PIC while using the privileges of his ATP. No ambiguity, he can log it, legally. Now, whether his company will let him use it to meet certain requirements (like experience for upgrade) that is a different question, however no company can tell you what you can and cannot put in your logbook. Whether you choose to use that time in an interview situation is totally up to you, or up to the company if they define what they're looking for.

On my resume, I have Logged PIC and Acting PIC separated. In other words, the Logged PIC matches up with my logbook, and for those flights that I logged PIC per sole manipulator but wasn't the head honcho for the flight, then I subtracted those hours from my logged PIC and came up with Acting PIC. That way, you please everyone.

So, log everything that is legal to log. When it comes time for an interview, then pick and choose.

 

[Twotter76]

DHC-6 SIC time

Regarding ILStoMins question abuot logging SIC time in a Twotter I can and have done it - as have many people I know. The important part here is that we were operating under part 121 - two pilots clearly required. Our ops specs VERY cleary stated the need for two pilots - an PIC and a SIC - even to taxi. So even though the aircraft can be certified for single pilot operations (not under part 121) because we operate it in a 121 environment that is not relevant. I never had anyone question my 1000 or so hours of SIC Twotter time at an interview.

Just be really careful about loggin PIC in it. I didn't do it because I am not signing for the aircraft or sitting in the left seat so I figure I am not the PIC. But I know people that have used the "sole manipulator" argument - I wont get into whether or not that is legal but really keep in mind that a job interview is the absolute last place that you want to be defending the validity of your flight time.

 

[xdashdriver]

Part 61 controls what can and cannot be logged by a pilot. Let's not confuse what can be legally LOGGED with what a specific company may allow you to COUNT to meet their specific requirements.

Part 121, two typed guys up front (like SWA), right-seat pilot can log PIC per sole manipulator if he's flying, left seat pilot (assuming he's the one that signed for the machine) can log PIC because he's acting PIC while using the privileges of his ATP. No ambiguity, he can log it, legally. Now, whether his company will let him use it to meet certain requirements (like experience for upgrade) that is a different question, however no company can tell you what you can and cannot put in your logbook. Whether you choose to use that time in an interview situation is totally up to you, or up to the company if they define what they're looking for.

On my resume, I have Logged PIC and Acting PIC separated. In other words, the Logged PIC matches up with my logbook, and for those flights that I logged PIC per sole manipulator but wasn't the head honcho for the flight, then I subtracted those hours from my logged PIC and came up with Acting PIC. That way, you please everyone.

So, log everything that is legal to log. When it comes time for an interview, then pick and choose.

I don't see why some people see the sole manipulator "argument" as being any kind of a grey area. It's in the regulations, black and white, you can log sole manipulator time as PIC in an aircraft that you're rated for. Just because airlines only want to know about your acting PIC time, doesn't mean you can't LOG the sole manipulator time. If you don't want to answer questions about it on the interview, then don't count it towards your PIC when filling out the airline application. The FARs tell you what you can and cannot LOG, not the company your work for. Now, if you don't WANT to log any sole manipulator time, because you feel it's "cheating" then that is your discretion. But just because one or two people don't, doesn't make it questionable or illegal.

Personally, I find it extremely odd that an aviation authority would allow 2 people to log PIC at the same time. It does not make much sense. It took a while to get my head around this idea when I first came to the U.S. It would be easier and make a lot more sense if there were just one definition of PIC. Despite not understanding the rationale, I still log everything that is legal to log.

 

[lymanm]

...

It IS illogical to have two people logging PIC time, but that is what the regs allow. In other countries, you can only have one PIC per flight - which makes infinitely more sense. When counting my time on my resumé, I indicate my "PIC" time and then my "Actual Command" time; they are always quite different. This actual command time is essentially what gets people hired.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Jesus guys...

Look on the release to see who is the "PIC"...in the 121 environment, it ain't the right seater!

 

[xdashdriver]

Roger that, but even the release still doesn't determine what is legal to log. As I mentioned before, I'm not disputing who is the actual PIC, or which makes more sense or anything. ALL I am saying is that the regulations allow for a wider range of loggable PIC time, no matter how strange or loose it may seem. Some people are hinting at the fact that they think that logging PIC time when you're not the aircraft commander is illegal, which it quite plainly is not.

I agree, the guy who signed the release IS the PIC. But he may not be the only one who is legally allowed to log it.

 

[Crosscheck]

SIC

How are co-pilots with companies like FLight Options/fractionals with King Air 200s in their fleets logging the time?

I fly for a company that uses King Air 300s and 200s. POI at FAA for the company says ok to log SIC if ground school, check ride per 135 are complete. I keep a copy in a safe place of each check. Understand we have A Lot of guys from this large turbine 135 operation going to good regionals like COMAIR, AirWis, etc. No one reported back being dinged in interview. We fly a lot of air ambulance into places that need below min takeoffs thus needing second man. A lot of hand flying so auto-pilot off most of the time. OPS specs require 2 asses in seats before wheels can turn. I think if you can explain it with reference to regs you'll be OK most of the time, but I understand it is a bit grey at times.

I think the 135 SIC time is a little easier to explain than someone logging it in a baron part 91. Just my thoughts

 

[OPECJet]

I've got a similar one. I have a few hours of SIC in a smaller twin Cessna, obviously not needing a SIC under 91. I had an 8410 in the airplane for VFR PIC, and IFR SIC. I was in the airplane as SIC for two reasons, one being no working autopilot, the other was so the company could abuse us more (extra two hours of flying per duty day).

I know I'm going to catch some flack on this one, but under 135 its all legal, and due to the lack of autopilot, also required.

Here's a question for you guys also. I fly SIC in a jet I haven't been to school in. This particular aircraft is not a single pilot airplane. I was given instruction in the aircraft by the non-cfi owner, and he gave me a "checkride", as well as the training manuals on the aircraft which I studied on my own and had Q&A sessions with the owner. If I remember correctly, 61.55 says what you have to do to fly SIC in the aircraft legally, but doesn't specifically say who you have to demonstrate this to. I'm hung up there.

Does this sound like a trainwreck to you guys?

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Re: DHC-6 SIC time

Regarding ILStoMins question abuot logging SIC time in a Twotter I can and have done it - as have many people I know. The important part here is that we were operating under part 121 - two pilots clearly required. Our ops specs VERY cleary stated the need for two pilots - an PIC and a SIC - even to taxi. So even though the aircraft can be certified for single pilot operations (not under part 121) because we operate it in a 121 environment that is not relevant. I never had anyone question my 1000 or so hours of SIC Twotter time at an interview.

Just be really careful about loggin PIC in it. I didn't do it because I am not signing for the aircraft or sitting in the left seat so I figure I am not the PIC. But I know people that have used the "sole manipulator" argument - I wont get into whether or not that is legal but really keep in mind that a job interview is the absolute last place that you want to be defending the validity of your flight time.

TwOtter76 states exactly what I was wondering. I know a couple guys loggin PIC when they are 'sole manipulator.' They say thats what needs to be done to meet the 550 PIC or whatever it is for the ATP rating - true, not true?

I'd be sweating bullets if I was asked in a interview how I logged PIC from the right seat of a Twin Otter -

 

[charlie1]

metroliner like the ones skywest use to fly or ameriflight currently fly. that is legal SIC time. don't let anyone tell you otherwise. to begin it's over 12,500 and you're flying part 135. you can log ALL sic time even if you don't touch the controls on a particular leg!!! you're doing the right thing...not padding your log book with sic time in a king air!!! good luck!

 

[Slye]

...not padding your log book with sic time in a king air!!! good luck!

SIC time in a King Air is not padding your logbook provided you comply with all FAR part 135 and OpSpecs rules and regulations...

 

[charlie1]

you are correct, sir. but when you try to do it under Part 91, then questions start to fly.

 

[Slye]

this is true...and by the way, Chappelle show starts in 19 minutes! <I'm Rick James, b1tch!>

 

[j328ernest]

So do you fly Big Sky right now ?

 

[FlyBigE]

logging SIC

I came from a similar instance of logging SIC time. I am now working in 121 and they didn't question any my SIC time in a similar airplane to the metro.

You can log it if:

1. The plane requires two pilots
2. You company ops spec requires two pilots (regardless if the plane requires it or not)
3. You are rated (i.e. Comm, multi, instrument) ATP and TYPE not req'd for SIC

If the answer to either one of these questions is yes then you may log it as SIC. All the time you are in the right seat is loggable.

I don't see any problem with loging the Metro time as SIC as long as you can legitimately defend it.