Shuttle America

[GuinessGuy]

The question of the week........why does RAH need three certificates?

Maybe Wexford wants to use the Blitzcreig approach in taking over the entire world HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!............or at least a large segment of the glorious and professional regional airline industry.

 

[SlapShot]

So now the argument is who is benefiting more?

Well I think that answer is obvious, Shuttle America pilots benefit a lot more from this deal. However, in the long run Chautauqua pilots will benefit as well because Wexford will no longer be able to use one pilot group against the other.

Our 86 pilots will not even make a dent in the total seniority list of Chautauqua.

 

[TWAER]

The question of the week........why does RAH need three certificates?

Maybe Wexford wants to use the Blitzcreig approach in taking over the entire world HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!............or at least a large segment of the glorious and professional regional airline industry.

They need three to get around the DAL scope of 70 or less seats. The MA planes I believe have more than 70. It's all about scope my friend. Nothing more and nothing less. RAH=get around mainline scope.

 

[KingAirer]

So now the argument is who is benefiting more?

Well I think that answer is obvious, Shuttle America pilots benefit a lot more from this deal. However, in the long run Chautauqua pilots will benefit as well because Wexford will no longer be able to use one pilot group against the other.

Our 86 pilots will not even make a dent in the total seniority list of Chautauqua.

No the argument isnt who is benefiting more. Its about integration. The CHQ pilot shouldnt be punished by a DOH integration, SA should be placed on the bottom at the time the of integration (after the fence is down, they would go where their new DOH would place them. A "Fair" Deal is Shuttle getting to enjoy the growth, while CHQ isnt penlized by the integration.

 

[tindriver72]

No the argument isnt who is benefiting more. Its about integration. The CHQ pilot shouldnt be punished by a DOH integration, SA should be placed on the bottom at the time the of integration (after the fence is down, they would go where their new DOH would place them. A "Fair" Deal is Shuttle getting to enjoy the growth, while CHQ isnt penlized by the integration.

How do you figure that the CHQ pilots would be punished by an integration? 86 numbers lower for the most JUNIOR CQ pilot, but the ability to add a few hundred underneath. Doesn't sound like a punishment to me.

You gotta remember, these guys have been working their a$$e$ off using the garbage cans that CHQ had to get off the certificate to IPO. You can't think of it as CHQ buying SA. It's republic buy SA. It's not a merger of any company. Just a joining of the list under common carrier.

 

[tyuwerty]

No the argument isnt who is benefiting more. Its about integration. The CHQ pilot shouldnt be punished by a DOH integration, SA should be placed on the bottom at the time the of integration (after the fence is down, they would go where their new DOH would place them. A "Fair" Deal is Shuttle getting to enjoy the growth, while CHQ isnt penlized by the integration.

Hey I posted the CHQ contract link before, you may need to review it a little more. Here is the relevant section. Staple is not fair and equitable, it ain't going to happen. Drop it already, all you are doing is creating hard feelings. There will be SA guys that hold senior Captain positions on a combined list.

"In the event of a merger of airline operations between the Company


and another air carrier the Company will require, as a condition of

any such operational merger that provisions be included requiring

that the surviving carrier shall provide for fair and equitable

integration of the pre-merger pilots’ seniority lists in accordance

with Articles 3 and 13 of the Allegheny Mohawk LPPs."

​

 

[godsgift2aviatn]

A staple is hardly reasonable and is most certainly advocated by the most junior pilots at CHQ. Their impudence has no limits. As I see it the SA union has the upper hand with respect to decisions made regarding integration on its certificate. I'm not surprised by the commotion regarding this relatively simple issue, it simply reinforces my observation that the pilot group in general is self serving and suffers from advanced stages of envy and implacable greed. Thankfully these decisions will be made by more reasonable minds.

 

[Flash]

I have a question about the contract, if it has been answered already, please forgive me.

Who's contract will be followed at SA once these shiny new jets are flying? Is a new contract being negotiated or will it be the same old Shuttle contract. Just curious as I know the contract at SA is not such a good one, although I'm sure the Chq one is not a whole lot better.

 

[GuinessGuy]

Flash, hope this helps answer the question

April 8, 2005





Mr. Wayne Heller

Executive Vice President and

Chief Operating Officer

Republic Airways Holdings, Inc.

8909 Purdue Road

Suite #300

Indianapolis, IN 46268





RE: Shuttle America, Inc.





Dear Mr. Heller:



As you have informed me in our recent discussions, ERJ-170 aircraft may be assigned to the Shuttle America certificate prior to the proposed acquisition by Republic Airways Holdings, Inc. We understand that this would facilitate the FAA ERJ-170 certification process. The owner/lease status of those ERJ-170 aircraft remains to be resolved.



While we understand the Company’s desire to have Shuttle certified as a 170 operator as soon as possible and to utilize existing Chautauqua 170-qualified pilots, we do have major concerns about allowing Chautauqua pilots to fly 170 aircraft operated by another airline in advance of an acquisition permitted under Article 1.D.3 to which the protections set forth in Article 1.H. apply.



Cognizant of the Company’s unique situation and the desire of this Local to provide growth opportunities for our Chautauqua pilots through Republic’s potential acquisition of Shuttle America, Inc., the Union will grant a limited waiver of our Scope clause allowing Chautauqua pilots to operate ERJ-170 aircraft on the Shuttle certificate owned and operated by Shuttle America, Inc. on the terms and conditions set forth below:



1. Upon the acquisition of Shuttle America by Republic, all ERJ-170 aircraft on the Shuttle certificate or on firm order will be considered to be Chautauqua/Republic aircraft for the purposes of Article 1.H.5.e. of the Chautauqua/IBT Collective Bargaining Agreement and will be flown by pilots on the Chautauqua pilots’ system seniority list during any period of separate operations.




2. All provisions of the Chautauqua/IBT Collective Bargaining Agreement will govern Chautauqua pilots flying the ERJ-170 aircraft on the Shuttle certificate prior to and after Republic Airways Holdings, Inc.’s acquisition of Shuttle America.



3. Chautauqua Airlines may continue to publish bids for the ERJ-170 Shuttle flying prior to the acquisition, however no more than ten (10) Captains and ten (10) First Officers may fly the ERJ-170 aircraft on the Shuttle certificate prior to the complete purchase of Shuttle America by Republic Airways, Inc.



4. This Scope waiver and the terms and conditions contained herein will terminate, and not be continued in effect by the status quo provisions of the RLA, unless the Shuttle acquisition by Republic Airways Holdings, Inc. is completed within three (3) months of the date of signing of this Agreement, in which event this Letter of Agreement shall run concurrent with the Chautauqua/IBT Collective Bargaining Agreement unless otherwise agreed in writing by the parties.



Please understand that we will not recognize the validity of the April 1, 2005 bid, or consent to the entry of pilots into training, unless and until this Letter of Agreement is executed by the Company.





cc: Bryan Bedford, President and CEO of Republic Airways Holdings, Inc.

(Via US Mail and Facsimile Transmission)

Ron Henson, Esq. - (Via US Mail and Facsimile Transmission)

Don Treichler, Director, Airline Division – (Via US Mail and Facsimile Transmission)

Roland Wilder, Esq. – (Via US Mail and Facsimile Transmission)

CHQ Executive Council - (Via US Mail

 

[Flash]

Thanks GuinessGuy!

 

[StuckInASaab]

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]I want to thank the CHQ FO who walked up to me in the G gates yesterday and said, "Welcome aboard, it is nice to see something good happen for a pilot group that has had it hard for the past few years." [/font]

 

[sleddriver77]

Musta been a guy with an upgrade class date later this month...

 

[BendOverAgain?]

Musta been a guy with an upgrade class date later this month...

Probably, and he knows that his growth is due to Shuttle America haven taken over the SAAB's making the IPO more profitable, and not to mention the jet growth for Chq prior. And Shuttle's certificate enabling the addition of more larger a/c to the Republic holdings - with no scope clauses or large penalties unlike Chq or Republic.

This merger is overdue and good for everyone. Seems only part of the most junior at Chq are upset as they don't apparently see the whole picture, only the picture during their short time there at Chq and are afraid of loosing a space or two from the seniority list, not realizing that this will bring several hundred more shortly after the merger to the seniority list with the growth that will be permitted. Nor do they realize that by Shuttle taking on the SAAB's and allowed no quality of life to make them work, opened the door for Chq to become an all jet carrier with the growth potential we see today.

1 year from now when the smoke settles this will be but a memory and the industry will have seen major growth in Republic holdings.

 

[HughBeamont]

It is so pathetic to hear any CHQ pilot b!tching about DOH integration with 86 pilots. You have been lucky enough to have experienced extreme growth in the last five years (some attribute it to bottom-feeding whorish behavior, but I do not subscribe to that line of thinking). Don't ruin your Karma.

 

[sleddriver77]

Wow. If the last one was directed at me, I guess my previous post was not read with the humor with which it was intended. Of course, most of the junior guys at CHQ aren't exactly ecstatic about having the SA guys filter in between us, most of us came to CHQ for the fairly rapid upgrade, while still making somewhat livable pay. Failing that, we'd have gone to Colgan or someplace and upgrarded in two weeks still flying for top ramen. The 90 or so guys on the SA list isn't a whole lot, and it's not gonna drop any CHQ pilot unbearably far down the list. We are starting to lose guys off the top here a little faster than we were, and an additional 9 170's will provide slots for all the Shuttle guys. When you figure in CHQ's love of seatlocks and such, it's not like the Saab drivers are gonna be training to be jet captains tomorrow, and the Jet F/O's are gonna train into the Saab, etc. The SA guys' integration into the CHQ system will probably happen very SLOWLY, as the Saabs are phased out, and for the most part, should be unnoticed by virtually all current CHQ pilots. Also, I think you'll see ALL operations move to the Republic certificate as soon as it is up and running, except that CHQ will operate any of the "red headed stepchild" stuff, such as the STL AAconnection base, in order to get around AA scope. So, ShuttleDudes, welcome to RepubTauqMerica Holdings, or whatever we are this week.

 

[91100 100 set]

Everybody always gets their panties in a wad over integration issues. Some people even go so far as to say things like "THEY aren't buying US out". From some line schmuck no different than you or I, as if that individual's contribution to the company makes one bit of difference to the success of the company, or some SA pilot's own contribution to that company is why they are being "bought out". Illusions of grandeur from a tiny, replaceable cog in a huge, greasy machine.

Wishing anything other than a fair integration for BOTH parties is simply bad karma. Welcome them aboard, literally and figuratively, because what goes around will come around. And I'm relatively junior at CHQ now.

Sled, give me a call the next time you're in BUF, we can go to Otto's again. And bring that sexy, crazy FA with you. Actually, just tell her to come by herself. I'd rather take just her...

 

[KingAirer]

Probably, and he knows that his growth is due to Shuttle America haven taken over the SAAB's making the IPO more profitable, and not to mention the jet growth for Chq prior. And Shuttle's certificate enabling the addition of more larger a/c to the Republic holdings - with no scope clauses or large penalties unlike Chq or Republic.

This merger is overdue and good for everyone. Seems only part of the most junior at Chq are upset as they don't apparently see the whole picture, only the picture during their short time there at Chq and are afraid of loosing a space or two from the seniority list, not realizing that this will bring several hundred more shortly after the merger to the seniority list with the growth that will be permitted. Nor do they realize that by Shuttle taking on the SAAB's and allowed no quality of life to make them work, opened the door for Chq to become an all jet carrier with the growth potential we see today.

1 year from now when the smoke settles this will be but a memory and the industry will have seen major growth in Republic holdings.

If you are so willing to commit CHQ jr FOs to a DOH merger, with all this growth, why are YOU so worried??

 

[BendOverAgain?]

If you are so willing to commit CHQ jr FOs to a DOH merger, with all this growth, why are YOU so worried??

I'm sorry, I've re-read my post and I don't see where I "appear" worried. Just stating what appears obvious from the other side of the company (Wexford).

Right now it appears that the merger is going to happen - no one knows for sure how the intergration will go. Any fair intergration (DOH, 12-1 ratio, etc) should be how it turns out. That's all anyone should ask for and not try to get a bump up on someone or hold another down.

 

[KingAirer]

You, and others, appear to be worried about a staple. Although this may be the incorrect action to take, it does seem ironic that you keep telling us that our Jr FOs should be Ok at the bottom of the list b/c of all the new growth thanks to SA. That their time there will be short. This same bottom of the list that you are so afraid of. Please dont believe all the growth hype. We may add, but be prepared to lose airplanes also.

 

[I.P. Freley]

it does seem ironic that you keep telling us that our Jr FOs should be Ok at the bottom of the list b/c of all the new growth thanks to SA. That their time there will be short. This same bottom of the list that you are so afraid of.

You don't see why a three-year captain at SA would be "worried" about a staple to the bottom at CHQ? You don't see how a three-year seniority pilot at a union carrier about to be integrated into another carrier's seniority list with the same union is more "worried" about a staple to the bottom and less worried about a six-month FO at the bigger carrier?

Am I reading this right?

Shirley you can't be serious. You call it ironic... I call it anything but ironic. People want to keep their seat, keep their relative seniority even. Those Krazy Saab drivers!

 

[tyuwerty]

There is nothing to "worry" about. There will be no staple. Shuttle pilots have a legal right to the flying on their certificate. They will not give that right up for a staple. The merger will be fair and they will not get screwed, end of story. If a few junior folks at chq want to bait us, then let them.

 

[TWAER]

There will be no staple, PERIOD!! The union has already come out and said so. Don't expect straight DOH, but enough with staple crap. Why argue something that isn't going to happen. And it won't be put out for a vote either.

 

[godsgift2aviatn]

Echoing the words of Henry Clay:

"A good compromise is when both parties are dissatisfied."

Hopefully that's what we will have here.

 

[I.P. Freley]

"Welcome to RAH. We're not happy until you're not happy."

 

[SlapShot]

The most recent thing I heard was DOH with the exception of the dates in which both companies had new hire classes starting on the same date. In that case the CHQ class would be senior to the SA class regardless of age.

 

[cargoflyr69]

Slap, Where did you hear DOH? Was there an official annoucement from our MEC today? April 18th is coming quick, and I'd sure like to know something before the training for the 170's start.

 

[TWAER]

There has been NO ANNOUNCEMENT. The two sides have not even met yet and not scheduled to do so. I think there would be some sort of DOH but not straight DOH. I would think some sort of ratio would be fair. Just my opinion.

 

[FlyingDawg]

The seniority list SHOULD be merged as follows:

1. SA pilots who signed off their CHQ rights after 9/11 as a requirement to SA employment will be replaced with their original CHQ DOH. (This will be refered to as the "Modified CHQ seniority list")

2. SA will recieve a ratio merge into the Modified CHQ seniority list, however no SA pilot will be placed above any CHQ pilot with a longer longevity.

In other words: CHQ will take care of the pilots screwed by the 9/11 firings, then merge the lists. Next the SA pilots who recieve a "super seniority" in respect to DOH will fall in the seniority list to their correct DOH position.

 

[SlapShot]

I believe the 2 unions are scheduled to meet next week.

The seniority list SHOULD be merged as follows:

1. SA pilots who signed off their CHQ rights after 9/11 as a requirement to SA employment will be replaced with their original CHQ DOH. (This will be refered to as the "Modified CHQ seniority list")

2. SA will recieve a ratio merge into the Modified CHQ seniority list, however no SA pilot will be placed above any CHQ pilot with a longer longevity.

In other words: CHQ will take care of the pilots screwed by the 9/11 firings, then merge the lists. Next the SA pilots who recieve a "super seniority" in respect to DOH will fall in the seniority list to their correct DOH position.

So with this scenario, a pilot on the SA seniority list could jump ahead of me on the CHQ list.



I realize they got screwed before and the CHQ union dropped the ball by not protecting them. However why should that allow them to now jump me 3 ½ years later?



Your ratio/DOH idea sounds good in theory. However I do not think it is going to be both ways.



There is no way to pull this off without screwing some people over. A ratio benefits the more senior guys at SA and affects the senior guys at CHQ. A DOH will screw the more junior guys at CHQ and benefit (in terms of ratio) the more junior at SA. Shuttle did a lot of hiring in the year after 9/11 when CHQ did none. Therefore a lot of SA pilots would fall in that slot on the CHQ seniority list.

 

[FlyingDawg]

I believe the 2 unions are scheduled to meet next week.

http://www.ibt747.org/airlines/chq/news/2005/041205chqB.htm

So with this scenario, a pilot on the SA seniority list could jump ahead of me on the CHQ list.

Response:
Only those SA pilots who were on the CHQ list prior to 9/11, and that date of hire is senior to your SA date of hire.


I realize they got screwed before and the CHQ union dropped the ball by not protecting them. However why should that allow them to now jump me 3 ½ years later?

Response:
CHQ fired these guys rather than furlough them, some out of seniority order. Then before the union could respond to this injustice, they get baited into signing their recall rights away to become employees at SA. This will right the wrong committed in the past.



Your ratio/DOH idea sounds good in theory. However I do not think it is going to be both ways.

Response:
SA has everything to gain here. Better pay, better equipment, better QOL and future job security (more people behind them on the seniority list). The CHQ/Republic pilots in most cases will lose seniority numbers with either a ratio or DOH. This formula allows a rational means to justify their loss, since they would be no worse off than a ratio or DOH merge. A straight date of hire merge will hurt the bottom of the CHQ list the most. And a ratio will hurt the senior CHQ pilots the most. Remember both pilots groups must agree otherwise an arbitrator will decide for us. I think the CHQ pilot group will only accept a merge along these lines, otherwise they will take their chances with the arbitrator. Traditionally arbitrators will give some slight advantage to the acquiring/surviving company and this merge formula follows these lines by slighty favoring the CHQ pilots.



There is no way to pull this off without screwing some people over. A ratio benefits the more senior guys at SA and affects the senior guys at CHQ. A DOH will screw the more junior guys at CHQ and benefit (in terms of ratio) the more junior at SA. Shuttle did a lot of hiring in the year after 9/11 when CHQ did none. Therefore a lot of SA pilots would fall in that slot on the CHQ seniority list.

This merge needs to happen without dividing the pilot groups against each other.