Should we start a union?

[bcp7]

Hey Buck, How long does your dispatch shift schedule run. Most all of my jobs, we had the schedule for the whole year by mid-December, so you could bid the year's vacation also.
One place had a 4 on 4 off schedule that would have run continuously through the years so the senior people could not cherry pick vacation time and holidays

 

[Buck_Boley]

Hey Buck, How long does your dispatch shift schedule run. Most all of my jobs, we had the schedule for the whole year by mid-December, so you could bid the year's vacation also.
One place had a 4 on 4 off schedule that would have run continuously through the years so the senior people could not cherry pick vacation time and holidays

We usually have a 6 month bid period for the schedule and then after that, we bid our vacation time. However, there have been so many people leaving and new people coming in that we have had numerous changes to the schedule so we have been gtting new schedules far more frequently. Vacations are done in three rounds, the first one is for full weeks only so everyone can get a shot at a decent week off.

This used to be an extremely senior dispatching office. I think we had an average of at least 10 years of experience per dispatcher a couple years ago. I do not know of any regional that had this many high timers but things are very different these days at Mesaba.

 

[Pull To Guns]

You’re talking apples and oranges D.

Thousands of pilots are Hugh impact to over head costs of the operation, with many opinions to control and narrow down into a few ideas.. A few dollar an hour raise their means millions in added costs to the airline, It’s messy and I don’t propose to offer an expert opinion on what the pilots do or don’t need.. we are talking about dispatchers and unions..

On the other hand, Dispatch departments are maybe 50 to 100 people, it’s a much smaller number to handle.. All with common interests and desires.. So pay raises of the same amount given to pilots would equal a few thousand dollars.. not much of an impact to the airline, a much more manageable number, and we the dispatchers could get paid a respectful wage.

This example further magnifies the reason dispatchers don't need a union.. Maybe you forgot that on a "per person" basis, dispatchers have one of the highest (if not the highest) direct impact on the daily profit and loss any airline operation.. (I’m not talking about an executive order to stop flying or something that sever) but on a general daily operational basis..
It's our decisions and judgments, our attitudes and how well we get along with other groups to get things done to keep the metal moving in the most efficient way and doing it all under the FAA regs that govern all of us.. it’s a lot to do right and everything we do can save or cost big dollars to our employers..

I know you don't have any respect for me or my opinion and thats ok man.. but this principal has been my montra on every position I have held in many different fields including dispatch. I have received top merit increases, bonus pay and I did not need to worry about what others thought of my work, because it lead the pack..

And the sooner you and other stop comparing us to the pilots, or any other airline group the sooner we will have our own identity.. apples and oranges..

Ps, your little girl is getting cute.. must take after her mother..

Dispatchers: never have so few done so much for so many (apologies to Winston Churchill). Our numbers are small but we have a major influence on the safety and profitability of our airlines because of the daily decisions we make.

In my last airline, there was a staff of 70 or so DXers for about 1800 flights a day. Compare that with the thousands of flight crew and ground support required for a day's operation and it becomes clear that we are the best bang for the airline's buck of any other group.

Because of our small numbers, our salary could easily be tripled without any negative impact to the bottom line. Yet the current pay scales (union or not) are at best barely above subsistence levels. With regionals starting around $35/yr and the top majors at ~$50K/yr, it is near insulting. Adding to that, a general lack of respect for dispatch ("dickscratch") from management and other employee groups makes me question why I have stayed with it since 1998.

Another aggravating thing is that if I was to go back to my previous emplover or a new one, I would start at the same rate as a guy freshly out of Sheffield despite my 13 years of experience. This discourages career mobility and flexibility. One gets to feeling trapped.

That is where I am now. Although my current position is tolerable, I would like to move back to the US at some time but I just can't afford to do that, even with what the majors are paying. Because of the current system, my choices are limited and I am figuring out that to make a living in the aviation business is to look outside of the airlines.

Rant over. Things are broken in our profession and I have no idea how to fix them.

That being said, I still enjoy going to work everyday and running an airline with my fellow dispatchers. We are a rare breed!

 

[Pull To Guns]

Well put CFA. If I was a CPA with 13 years of experience, I could expect to make more than a newly minted grad. Not so in the airline biz.

Yes, I do somewhat blame unions. They have put us in the ""labor" category rather than "mgt" which boxes us in by ironclad contracts and leaves us without any individual negotiating power.

This is the contract, take it or leave it. Plays into management's hands. If any experienced DXer wants to change jobs, they start at the bottom again which is a real deterrent to career progression and limits choices.

Mid-level mgt ALWAYS has the option to individually negotiate pay based on experience and are paid accordingly. They can go from job to job expecting a pay increase each time unhampered by strict union rules.

I am tired of being screwed in this way and the TAF forecasts that my next job will still be in aviation ops, just not with an airline.

 

[dispatchguy]

figuring out that to make a living in the aviation business is to look outside of the airlines.

Rant over. Things are broken in our profession and I have no idea how to fix them.
!

So very much so concur. There will be no upward mobility of the dispatch profession until a lot of things happen.

A - We stop working for crappy wages. 12 bucks an hour to move metal is near criminal. Even dispatchers can get SJS - Shiny Jet Syndrome; accept a job with Crappy Airlines to hopefully one day get on with a major flying long haul crap. Guess what, having done both - its all the same. The crews can still be idiots flying the 12 hour flight as the hour long domestic flight. Plus, Crappy Airlines can be your entire career.

B - Be professionals. Stop trying to find the end of the internet, period. Use your time to improve your skills - learn what it really means to be 2nd segment climb limited, learn the regs, read the GDMF Airmans Info Manual. How many North Atlantic Qualified Dispatchers have ever taken the time to read all the ball flags and pages of notes on the Jepp Atlantic Orientation Chart? Same over the Pacific - theres a LOT of golden info in there, but my guess is that few dispatchers have actually taken time to read them, even if theyre theater qualified. The loss is yours, or your flights when there are problems.

As far as looking outside the airlines -I so completely agree. I just dont know what.

And also, youre right, my daughter gets it from her birth mom - she was adopted from the Jiangxi Province, People's Republic of China, 2 years ago this month.

 

[Pull To Guns]

When I was working at a huge regional, there was a time when new dispatchers were needed but none could be found. So instead of jacking up the pay scale to attract talent, mgt decided to send rampers and station ops people to a dispatcher school in Arizona, tuition, living expenses and salary paid.

The result of that was the same pitiful pay scale for the existing dispatchers and a bunch of newbies with a fresh certificate that couldn't even decipher a TAF or NOTAM. The school was a scam and diploma mill. Nothing personal against the candidates but they were supposedly on a 3 year contract and owed the company money if they left before then. Most did leave and were not penalized.

This way of thinking astounds me! Instead of raising pay to attract and keep talented people, mgt decided to roll the dice on a an unknown entity. They blew a lot of money for nothing.

Those of us that payed for our certificate were pizzed off at the whole situation. Instead of making the place where talented and experienced DXers want to work for, mgt chose an ill-fated scheme that backfired. Why they begrudge us a decent wage is beyond my understanding.

Tripling dispatchers pay would not even be a blip on any airlines' bottom line, there are so few of us.

$15-$18/hr to start is an insult and borders on criminal for the responsibility we assume. Are you ready to lose all your assets from a court decision because of an error? Flight crews are covered but not DXers.

Sorry to be so negative, but I have been there and done that.

 

[Buck_Boley]

Well I feel the pain of everyone on here, that's for sure. Management will pay Dispatchers as a group whatever they can get away with and as little as they can. This philosophy is extremely short sighted because a good dispatcher can save their employer thousands, and even millions of dollars over time. The revolving door philosophy might save money on payroll short term, but that is quickly eradicated from higher training costs and a good dispatcher can make one decision that will make that difference up in just one day.

I agree that Dispatchers as a group are extremely underpaid, but I do not expect this to change anytime soon.

 

[ShutupandFly]

Keep a few of things in mind.

The union can tell you anything you want to hear to get you to vote them in.

Once you vote in a union it's all but impossable to get them out, even if they don't deliver.

You will most likely not get another raise until you have a contract.

The union becomes the only voice for the group, the prefrences of individuals are not and cannot be considered. If you don't like what the union is negotiating, too bad.

If you have a contract with a pay scale and the cost of living goes up, lets say because the treasury starts printing trillions of dollars, your stuck with that scale until the CBA becomes amendable.

 

[SKC]

Also, if you want a union, assume that from the time you vote them in until you have a contract will be at least 12 and probably more likely 18 months.

 

[Troutbait]

When I was working at a huge regional, there was a time when new dispatchers were needed but none could be found. So instead of jacking up the pay scale to attract talent, mgt decided to send rampers and station ops people to a dispatcher school in Arizona, tuition, living expenses and salary paid.

And they're doing the exact same thing again.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." :smash: