Should we start a union?

[dsptchrnja]

Recently, some dispatchers at the 135 Fractional on-demand operator I work for, NJA, felt a union would be beneficial and would like to vote the Teamsters in. Thought I would inquire from those of you in unions or not, to see if you feel unions are necessary for Flight Dispatchers. Pay and benefits do not seem to be the issue as we are on par with other dispatch offices, if not better. Mostly, I think, people feel like they need a voice to make changes they feel are needed, and have more control.

Thanks.

 

[propsarebest]

there is a dispatcher union already. United is a member.

 

[dsptchrnja]

there is a dispatcher union already. United is a member.

I believe United is represented by PAFCA. My company would be represented by IBT243 if voted in.

 

[En Mort Main]

My advice would to be avoid voting in a Union if you do a good job, if you suck and need the protection of a senority list then by all means vote one in.
Just remember your work group will be a tiny group in the IBT and they will not invest much time or energy into your work group because the financial pay off for them will be very minimal.
Take that one percent that you could be giving to the union and apply it to your 401k and you will have a much better life.

En Mort Main

 

[Squirrel29]

Unions could be bad or good depends on what you need one for. I would suggest first that the dispatchers just try to together with management as a group or select a few to sitdown and talk with management. We did that at my last airline and it worked out nicely. We first did it about pay and then once a year we would meet with the President of the company if we had any issues. Now if the company doesnt want to meet with you that way you might want to look into a union. But I would try that first.

 

[pilotyip]

Been there done that, unions are limited in what they can deliver. One thing they can not deliver is job security. I was ALPA at TransAmerican (L-188/DC-8), 1978-79, owner decided he could make more money selling airplanes than flying them, going backward in seniority, airline ended up in 1982 with C-130's in Angola Africa and New Guina. Folded in 1984, I bailed to the corp world in 1979. Hand writing was on the wall and there was nothing a union could do to protect my job. Zantop Teamsters (L-188) in 1996, union got in by one vote, first pay raise on contract due 3-26-1997, owner shut the company down on 3-25-1997. Jimmy Zantop figured why risk my $35M, Nothing a union could do to protect my job. But indirectly, enlightened management knows you have to match industry standards to be competitive in retaining and attracting employees. Therefore employees at those non-union companies benefit from the union company work rules without having to pay dues.

 

[Plankster]

If everyday concerns are your only complaint, I would strongly caution against voting in a union. If a union gets voted in there is still very little compelling management to address everyday concerns. As a matter of fact, with union contracts in a dispatch office, often times, the manager's hands are tied because of the collective bargaining agreement. If you are not cutting too many releases on a daily basis, or being asked to follow an unreasonable number of flights, I would avoid the collective bargaining process, and count on open door policies to voice concerns. At the last carrier i dx'ed for, we were cutting a lot of releases and i believe that is what lead to a union being voted in, not working conditions. Also, unions are expensive. As soon as a collective bargaining agreement is ratified, the 2% pay cut begins.

 

[dispatchguy]

Avoid a union, all they care about is you paying dues - nothing less, and definitely nothing more.

If your managment at your place does suck rocks though - and isnt willing to listen, then a union might be a nice bargaining club, but like someone else said, it is no panacea. Plus, you run the risk of the union being in bed with management - so you dont get what you want, and you get to pay 1.5-2.0% for the privilege.

 

[Hamburger]

As long as your employer is treating you well, there is not need for a Union.

Honest and forthright employers understand this. They see a Union as a failure on their part.

If you are getting bent over and reasonable profits are becoming unreasonable profits on your back, you have no choice.

Management HATES Unions, but what they NEVER grasp is that Management CREATES Unions. Happy workers who get a fair share don't organize.

 

[shooter]

As long as your employer is treating you well, there is not need for a Union.

Honest and forthright employers understand this. They see a Union as a failure on their part.

If you are getting bent over and reasonable profits are becoming unreasonable profits on your back, you have no choice.

Management HATES Unions, but what they NEVER grasp is that Management CREATES Unions. Happy workers who get a fair share don't organize.

Well said.

 

[knowone]

so how many are too many flights to follow for a day, or too many releases to cut. Unlike the airlines, NJA dispatchers do not have canned routes to file everyday. Another point is NJA is not required to have a dispatch dept.

 

[deltabobo]

I work for a 121 Supp carrier that traverses the world. No route is the same. We have a small group of dispatchers (10) and we are represented by the other "union" out there: TWU. Like DG said, Unions for small groups aren't really effective, compared a large one like PAFCA at UAL & DAL. The bigger the group, the bigger bargaining power they have.

I'm for unions if they go for the basics: guaranteed pay, guaranteed seniority, and guaranteed number of hours. When you go negotiate a contract, you've got a list of things you want, but you have realize that management is not going to side with you on most-going have to be willing to sacrifice some wants to get the needs.

Again, like DG said, some shops have leadership that's in bed with management and you lose your effective ability to be a strong, cohesive unit.

 

[Squirrel29]

I agree the pay based on experienced but most managers dont want the headache of people complaining that people are being brought in at a hire wage. Last company I worked at we had a great system. We had a base scale and then we had merit pay raises. Everyone received the base pay raise but if you did your job above and beyond you received the merit raise too. It really worked out well in helping to get experienced people in the office and kept everyone happy.

 

[dispatchguy]

Now on a bigger picture.. I think dispatchers should have some way of being paid based on their overall experience in the field.. like in many trades where there are apprentices/ journeymen/ masters.. etc.. I think it's stupid that a person must start over at a "green ticket" wage anytime they go to another company..
There should be a minimum "green-ticket" starting dispatcher pay rate.. say $15/hr..
After you have 3 years under your belt another level, say $18/hr, once you have 5 another level and so on..
The position should garner maximum respect by the airlines.. after all, next to the flight crews, we have the ability to make the largest single operational difference between profit and loss.. .

And tell me how well the very same thing has worked for the pilots.........





Hell freeze over yet? Didnt think so

 

[Buck_Boley]

When we started our union (TWU) at Mesaba about 10 years ago, we were up to 110 releases a shift (NOT KIDDING!) we had only one superviser and we had to do all the routing and swapping ourselves. There was no set plan for overtime award so that changed each month, one month it would be from seniority, the next month someone just grabbed it and it was "first come first serve." There was no training pay, there was no shift differential and there was nothing laid out for vacation awards. Our pay wasn't that great, either but there were just so many other things we needed to have a say over and we had no voice that it wasn't our primary concern.

A Union can spell out a lot of things that need to be in writing and a good Union works WITH management for the better of both labor and the company. Even if you think things are currently fine with management, you never know what the next management team will bring. The next group might decide to get rid of the high time employees to save money so there goes your job security. For us, on a very difficult forced move to Memphis that we had no idea was coming at the time of the contract we fortunately had things spelled out that the company will at least pay for the move as well as a few other things that will help make the move a little easier. We also got a rather large settlement for the sale of the airline that the other union employees got, otherwise we would have received a couple hundred dollars like the non-union employees received. But more importantly, job workload was cut by more than half, we have supervisers to do routing and a Duty Manager to help with management decisions and this helps out a ton on the workload. We also have a schedule bid where we know what our schedule will be at least 2 weeks in advance, we have overtime equalization that is not only fair but helps management on expenses and many other things that help make our job a little easier and more fair as well.

For us at Mesaba, it was a great choice and I am glad we did it. Now with a move to Memphis, any type of help with security and seniority lists are extremely important in a move that will be very difficult to make. Good luck on your decision!!

 

[bcp7]

Hey Buck, How long does your dispatch shift schedule run. Most all of my jobs, we had the schedule for the whole year by mid-December, so you could bid the year's vacation also.
One place had a 4 on 4 off schedule that would have run continuously through the years so the senior people could not cherry pick vacation time and holidays

 

[Buck_Boley]

Hey Buck, How long does your dispatch shift schedule run. Most all of my jobs, we had the schedule for the whole year by mid-December, so you could bid the year's vacation also.
One place had a 4 on 4 off schedule that would have run continuously through the years so the senior people could not cherry pick vacation time and holidays

We usually have a 6 month bid period for the schedule and then after that, we bid our vacation time. However, there have been so many people leaving and new people coming in that we have had numerous changes to the schedule so we have been gtting new schedules far more frequently. Vacations are done in three rounds, the first one is for full weeks only so everyone can get a shot at a decent week off.

This used to be an extremely senior dispatching office. I think we had an average of at least 10 years of experience per dispatcher a couple years ago. I do not know of any regional that had this many high timers but things are very different these days at Mesaba.

 

[Pull To Guns]

You’re talking apples and oranges D.

Thousands of pilots are Hugh impact to over head costs of the operation, with many opinions to control and narrow down into a few ideas.. A few dollar an hour raise their means millions in added costs to the airline, It’s messy and I don’t propose to offer an expert opinion on what the pilots do or don’t need.. we are talking about dispatchers and unions..

On the other hand, Dispatch departments are maybe 50 to 100 people, it’s a much smaller number to handle.. All with common interests and desires.. So pay raises of the same amount given to pilots would equal a few thousand dollars.. not much of an impact to the airline, a much more manageable number, and we the dispatchers could get paid a respectful wage.

This example further magnifies the reason dispatchers don't need a union.. Maybe you forgot that on a "per person" basis, dispatchers have one of the highest (if not the highest) direct impact on the daily profit and loss any airline operation.. (I’m not talking about an executive order to stop flying or something that sever) but on a general daily operational basis..
It's our decisions and judgments, our attitudes and how well we get along with other groups to get things done to keep the metal moving in the most efficient way and doing it all under the FAA regs that govern all of us.. it’s a lot to do right and everything we do can save or cost big dollars to our employers..

I know you don't have any respect for me or my opinion and thats ok man.. but this principal has been my montra on every position I have held in many different fields including dispatch. I have received top merit increases, bonus pay and I did not need to worry about what others thought of my work, because it lead the pack..

And the sooner you and other stop comparing us to the pilots, or any other airline group the sooner we will have our own identity.. apples and oranges..

Ps, your little girl is getting cute.. must take after her mother..

Dispatchers: never have so few done so much for so many (apologies to Winston Churchill). Our numbers are small but we have a major influence on the safety and profitability of our airlines because of the daily decisions we make.

In my last airline, there was a staff of 70 or so DXers for about 1800 flights a day. Compare that with the thousands of flight crew and ground support required for a day's operation and it becomes clear that we are the best bang for the airline's buck of any other group.

Because of our small numbers, our salary could easily be tripled without any negative impact to the bottom line. Yet the current pay scales (union or not) are at best barely above subsistence levels. With regionals starting around $35/yr and the top majors at ~$50K/yr, it is near insulting. Adding to that, a general lack of respect for dispatch ("dickscratch") from management and other employee groups makes me question why I have stayed with it since 1998.

Another aggravating thing is that if I was to go back to my previous emplover or a new one, I would start at the same rate as a guy freshly out of Sheffield despite my 13 years of experience. This discourages career mobility and flexibility. One gets to feeling trapped.

That is where I am now. Although my current position is tolerable, I would like to move back to the US at some time but I just can't afford to do that, even with what the majors are paying. Because of the current system, my choices are limited and I am figuring out that to make a living in the aviation business is to look outside of the airlines.

Rant over. Things are broken in our profession and I have no idea how to fix them.

That being said, I still enjoy going to work everyday and running an airline with my fellow dispatchers. We are a rare breed!

 

[Pull To Guns]

Well put CFA. If I was a CPA with 13 years of experience, I could expect to make more than a newly minted grad. Not so in the airline biz.

Yes, I do somewhat blame unions. They have put us in the ""labor" category rather than "mgt" which boxes us in by ironclad contracts and leaves us without any individual negotiating power.

This is the contract, take it or leave it. Plays into management's hands. If any experienced DXer wants to change jobs, they start at the bottom again which is a real deterrent to career progression and limits choices.

Mid-level mgt ALWAYS has the option to individually negotiate pay based on experience and are paid accordingly. They can go from job to job expecting a pay increase each time unhampered by strict union rules.

I am tired of being screwed in this way and the TAF forecasts that my next job will still be in aviation ops, just not with an airline.

 

[dispatchguy]

figuring out that to make a living in the aviation business is to look outside of the airlines.

Rant over. Things are broken in our profession and I have no idea how to fix them.
!

So very much so concur. There will be no upward mobility of the dispatch profession until a lot of things happen.

A - We stop working for crappy wages. 12 bucks an hour to move metal is near criminal. Even dispatchers can get SJS - Shiny Jet Syndrome; accept a job with Crappy Airlines to hopefully one day get on with a major flying long haul crap. Guess what, having done both - its all the same. The crews can still be idiots flying the 12 hour flight as the hour long domestic flight. Plus, Crappy Airlines can be your entire career.

B - Be professionals. Stop trying to find the end of the internet, period. Use your time to improve your skills - learn what it really means to be 2nd segment climb limited, learn the regs, read the GDMF Airmans Info Manual. How many North Atlantic Qualified Dispatchers have ever taken the time to read all the ball flags and pages of notes on the Jepp Atlantic Orientation Chart? Same over the Pacific - theres a LOT of golden info in there, but my guess is that few dispatchers have actually taken time to read them, even if theyre theater qualified. The loss is yours, or your flights when there are problems.

As far as looking outside the airlines -I so completely agree. I just dont know what.

And also, youre right, my daughter gets it from her birth mom - she was adopted from the Jiangxi Province, People's Republic of China, 2 years ago this month.