Should captain pay top out at 150K?

[imacdog]

Why don't you read the whole post before you open your mouth and insert your foot.

My point was simply, if someone can't survive on $107K/year with a wife and three kids, while I've got 22 year olds that can do it on 1/3rd of that, he needs to reevaluate.

Way to jump to conclusions though and make yourself look like an ass.



You CHOOSE to put away a ridiculous amount for college fund.

You CHOOSE to have a mortgage on what I hope is a $300,000 house.

You CHOOSE to carry two car payments and have some outrageous utility bills. I remember growing up with my dad as an airline pilot making ******************** at Republic, we were a one car family.

You're not starving on $107K/year, and if you can't survive on that, again, you've got priority issues. It can be done, there are luxuries you seem to deem as priority.

Leave it to the Flight Info morons to come up with the idea that a 300K home is some luxury resort. Or that a family having two cars is outrageous. Way to go SIG, I think you just came up with the dumbest post of the year.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

This thread began with the argument that our wide body captains should make less than what LAN Peru (a lower paid subsidiary of LAN Chile) pays their A 320 captains think about it, I'm talking about an airline based in a country which GDP is smaller than one of our states. Some of you are placing these new lower standards on the economy and what not, there have always been economic and industry downturns, this is nothing new. Some of you have convinced yourselves that it is ok to expect these new lower standards because there are thousands of pilots on the street, guys there have always been plenty of pilots in the world to supply the markets, during the 60's and 70's there was plenty supply of pilots from the military and the salary levels where maintain and increased actually, Why? because it starts with an individual saying, no I'm not working for what you are paying and because they spoke with their feet and when one walked, they all walked. When did we convinced yourselves that it is our responsibility to lower our salaries so that the company stays profitable? I saw an interview while in Japan on the BBC with an Alitalia captain and his wife, she is a F/A for Alitalia and the reporter asked them, Why don't you sign this new contract? you are both going to be out of a job if Alitalia goes under, she jumped right away and said, "I would rather be an average paid waitress than the lowest paid flight attendant" He said, "my son is now 17 and he wants to be a pilot, what kind of a career I will leave behind for him if I accept these terms? No, I'll rather abandon the career before I leave that kind of legacy for my son" and when he said that, I remembered my father's words before he retired, "the only constant in this business is that you will loose your job and the next job is around the corner" I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old but I believe that you gentlemen are the best pilots on the planet and should earn as such, we are the lowest paid pilots of all other industrialized nations on earth and the argument of this thread is that those standards should be lowered?

 

[Mamma]

This thread began with the argument that our wide body captains should make less than what LAN Peru (a lower paid subsidiary of LAN Chile) pays their A 320 captains think about it, I'm talking about an airline based in a country which GDP is smaller than one of our states. Some of you are placing these new lower standards on the economy and what not, there have always been economic and industry downturns, this is nothing new. Some of you have convinced yourselves that it is ok to expect these new lower standards because there are thousands of pilots on the street, guys there have always been plenty of pilots in the world to supply the markets, during the 60's and 70's there was plenty supply of pilots from the military and the salary levels where maintain and increased actually, Why? because it starts with an individual saying, no I'm not working for what you are paying and because they spoke with their feet and when one walked, they all walked. When did we convinced yourselves that it is our responsibility to lower our salaries so that the company stays profitable? I saw an interview while in Japan on the BBC with an Alitalia captain and his wife, she is a F/A for Alitalia and the reporter asked them, Why don't you sign this new contract? you are both going to be out of a job if Alitalia goes under, she jumped right away and said, "I would rather be an average paid waitress than the lowest paid flight attendant" He said, "my son is now 17 and he wants to be a pilot, what kind of a career I will leave behind for him if I accept these terms? No, I'll rather abandon the career before I leave that kind of legacy for my son" and when he said that, I remembered my father's words before he retired, "the only constant in this business is that you will loose your job and the next job is around the corner" I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old but I believe that you gentlemen are the best pilots on the planet and should earn as such, we are the lowest paid pilots of all other industrialized nations on earth and the argument of this thread is that those standards should be lowered?

Great post!

 

[Browntothebone]

Instructordude's schtick is old, tired and played out. Yet some of you still fall for it.

Ten years ago, when airlines were hiring like mad and most of the threads on this site were about who was getting interviewed and hired, a buddy of mine confessed that he used to screw with people on here. He would come on here and let on like he was a young women and "she" would complain because United/US Airways/(insert desired major airline) turned "her" down for the second time and claim that "she" had 1500 hrs and 60 hrs of multi engine and isn't it an outrage that they wouldn't hire "her".

Then he would sit back and watch guys fall all over themselves berating "her" because they had 7600 hrs, 3300 hrs jet PIC and couldn't even get an interview and where did "she" get off complaining....and so on.......

That's what Instructor dude does and people still fall for it......He's laughing at you.

He's not the only one! :laugh:

 

[Green]

Leave it to the Flight Info morons to come up with the idea that a 300K home is some luxury resort. Or that a family having two cars is outrageous. Way to go SIG, I think you just came up with the dumbest post of the year.

lol.....Where I live on the west coast 300k buys you a 1600sqft, 80 year old, fixer upper, in a bad neighborhood. Now with the property bust you might be able to buy that gem for 280 but it's still in the bad neighborhood. A starter home in a nice part of town will set you back at least 500k.

Great Post from Dumb Pilot....We make less than quite a few of our colleagues in South America yet idiots on here think we're overpaid because sailors live on less...?

FYI..An Air France A330/340 Captain makes roughly $355,000USD/year while only flying 65-70 hours/month. Now as airline pilots for what is arguably the richest nation in the world should we be comparing ourselves to Lan Peru or Air France????!!!!! Cmon guys, have a little self worth...

 

[Bringupthebird]

The airline industry in 2008 doesn't begin to resemble the industry of 1971, so why bother comparing salaries? The cumulative effect of 37 years of wage erosion isn't going to be reversed in one generation, if at all.

Airlines are like the buggywhip industry - I don't recommend anyone getting into it.

 

[Bringupthebird]

FYI..An Air France A330/340 Captain makes roughly $355,000USD/year while only flying 65-70 hours/month. Now as airline pilots for what is arguably the richest nation in the world should we be comparing ourselves to Lan Peru or Air France????!!!!! Cmon guys, have a little self worth...

How does one become an Air France pilot? How many do they hire per year? Do they take every guy with 1500TT and 500 PIC Turbine? Does Air France hold a monopoly on any routes or do they compete with everyone on Travelocity on every route?

Pilots have some influence, but they can't change an entire industry.

When the dominant carrier in the US is successful primarily due to extrordinary productivity and it is shifting to a new business model (ex.LGA expansion)that puts that productivity at risk, wage cuts can't be far behind.

 

[Green]

How does one become an Air France pilot? How many do they hire per year? Do they take every guy with 1500TT and 500 PIC Turbine? Does Air France hold a monopoly on any routes or do they compete with everyone on Travelocity on every route?

Pilots have some influence, but they can't change an entire industry.

When the dominant carrier in the US is successful primarily due to extrordinary productivity and it is shifting to a new business model (ex.LGA expansion)that puts that productivity at risk, wage cuts can't be far behind.

Well first off you have to learn French and then marry a French girl...

Yes Air France competes with a multitude of low cost carriers throughout Europe. They do not pay their CEO's 40 Million dollars for a few years of work so I guess they have some savings there. I don't know about the hiring minimums but I imagine you don't see any new hires with 5000 hours total time and years spent at a regional. That is a uniquely American phenomenon in our industry.

As for Southwest Airlines potentially taking wage cuts to 'save the company' I wouldn't be surprised but the pilots would have nobody to blame but themselves. Salaries should be a relatively fixed cost. The history of US Airlines is rife with failed airlines but only recently have pilots convinced themselves that pay cuts are necessary for success. As long as we keep bending over management is going to keep asking for paycuts. Why bother managing an airline when you can just ask the suckers who fly the planes to give up 200, 300, 900 million dollars? If low wages equaled success then US Airways would be dominating the industry.

It all comes down to skilled management. Ryan Air pays their FO's roughly 125k/year to fly a 737. That airline operates in arguably the most cutthroat market in the world and they are the lowest of the low cost carriers. You have to buy your own cokes and uniforms but their pilots make more than most passenger carriers in the US. I get the feeling that, in general, top management at foreign carriers actually knows something about the airline biz...Here in the states we get blowhards like Kirby, Parker, Lorenzo, Icahn, Tilton, Carty, etc who talk a good game and then bail with a handsome payout.

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/77452/jal-ceo-takes-a-pay-cut-flies-airline-out-of-turbulence.html

 

[Bringupthebird]

Salaries should be "relatively fixed"? What's that mean? Relative to what?

And does Air France, et. al. compete with Ryanair or do their affiliates?

The airline business is a commodity and commodities tend not to attract the best CEO's. Overpaid? Yes, but not the best. The best CEOs are in growing industries trying to establish their place in uncharted waters, kind of like the airlines in the 40's and 50's. You are likely to see more Parkers and fewer Juan Trippes.

And because of that, you are likely not to see pilot wages going up significantly.

 

[SSDD]

So with all this banter, no one is willing to stick their neck out as say how much is adequate compensation for an airline pilot?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I think that a 777 or comparable CA should make no less than 270K-330K a year.
A 320 or 737 CA should be making 220K a year.
A 757/767 CA should be making 250K
A second year narrow body FO should be making over 125K a year.
12 Year guy 180-200K a year
An RJ CA should be making over 130K a year.
A new hire RJ FO should be making 40K

How is that. I would like more but I think that is reasonable.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I think a captain should make $2 per seat per hour. I think a first officer should make $1 per seat per hour. I don't think there should be longevity. I think everyone should get paid based on the maximum number of seats the aircraft is certified for. You can do the math if you want. I think this should apply from the Beech 1900's all the way up to the 747-400's or A380's. This would also allow pilots to "start over" at another company.

 

[waveflyer]

ring up the bird--
what's the point of telling us that we don't think we should be paid more? why say that?

hockeypilot- well said!

 

[Mooseflyer]

Leave it to the Flight Info morons to come up with the idea that a 300K home is some luxury resort. Or that a family having two cars is outrageous. Way to go SIG, I think you just came up with the dumbest post of the year.

Ditto!!!

 

[milky]

Hell, why stop at $250 or $300? I deserve $500,000. Who the hell cares if the market forces have shown that my peers will work for $60,000 and just b*itch about it a little? Why do pilots in peru make more than you? How about UAE? Maybe because nobody with the skills required wants to live there, so they have to offer more money? Couldn't be market forces in action. If 4,000 of you send your applications there all at once, they may figure out they can pay less, too. I know you'll tell me how stupid I am that I believe in capitalism and market forces. I can overcome those by forcing my company to pay me more until they go bankrupt again because they cannot compete in this market. Then I'll have to change to a different airline and start over at the bottom. Sounds like a great industry to work in.

 

[DIAMONDDD]

................. I can overcome those by forcing my company to pay me more until they go bankrupt again because they cannot compete in this market. Then I'll have to change to a different airline and start over at the bottom. Sounds like a great industry to work in.

I find it funny. The price of new airplanes has gone up. Terminal rent goes up. The price of a new tug goes up. CEO pay has gone way up. Hell, the price of fuel freaking DOUBLED in less than a year. Yet, when we all start talking about getting pay raises, THAT is what is going to bankrupt the company. Yes, THAT is the thing that puts the company over the edge.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree. I think that the company can afford to pay us more, but it is a lot easier not to.
The less they pay the employees the more wiggle room they have on everything else.
I want to see more money!

 

[Mamma]

I agree. I think that the company can afford to pay us more, but it is a lot easier not to.
The less they pay the employees the more wiggle room they have on everything else.
I want to see more money!

I don't know. Things are tough these days. The airlines, I hear, have called their insurance companies and said times are tough so we are only going to pay half the premium for the full policy. CEOS and top management have given back most of their pay and stock options. They also called Ford and Harrison and said they are only paying 1/3 of the asking rate. This also happened with the caterers, airport landing fees, deicing fluid, and terminal fees....all the airlines are going to pay them less than asking price for the full service. The govt is being tough about the security fees but I think the airlines will win in the end. Times are tough out there so just like everyone else, we greedy pilots need to dig into our pockets and take a big pay cut to keep our airlines solvent. They are all depending on us! Who's with me?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I don't know. Things are tough these days. The airlines, I hear, have called their insurance companies and said times are tough so we are only going to pay half the premium for the full policy. CEOS and top management have given back most of their pay and stock options. They also called Ford and Harrison and said they are only paying 1/3 of the asking rate. This also happened with the caterers, airport landing fees, deicing fluid, and terminal fees....all the airlines are going to pay them less than asking price for the full service. The govt is being tough about the security fees but I think the airlines will win in the end. Times are tough out there so just like everyone else, we greedy pilots need to dig into our pockets and take a big pay cut to keep our airlines solvent. They are all depending on us! Who's with me?

That makes me sick. We have given enough.

 

[HalinTexas]

With supply and demand being what it is, you're lucky to make more than a school teacher. Look at the demand for them vs. their pay. Then, look nurses and what they're paid and the demand for them. Now look at which have unions demanding "fair" compensation.

Now, step back and look at the supply/demand curve for pilots in the states. I know most probably were educated in public schools in the US. That's why you think the way you do.

Stop thinking you're entitled to anything 'cause you're not.

 

[Bringupthebird]

ring up the bird--
what's the point of telling us that we don't think we should be paid more? why say that?

Because the sentiment here is that if you want it bad enough, you can get it ("it" being significantly higher wages). The reality is that airline flying didn't become the high paying profession it once was simply because the pilots wanted it. That had something to do with it, but it was also a combination of industry growth and maturity that we are not likely to ever see again. So those who really want to pull in 200k+ better choose their careers more wisely, because it will likely not be found in the front office of an airplane.

And life is way too short to pin your hopes on "tomarrow" making it any better.

 

[waveflyer]

so how does that translate when it comes time for you to vote on a pay package? do you vote to release scope b/c of this view of yours? Do you vote to decrease your pay?

I would say that the pay had a lot more factors involved. #1- the solid belief that you are a professional and deserve professional pay. Apparently you don't- that's sad. Don't tell me to get out of the industry. With your attitude... you should--- and our industry would have that much more pride.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

There is zero chance I would vote yes on a concession. I got hired under a concessionary contract...I've gotta see something more to have something to give back.

 

[Ty Webb]

Times are tough out there so just like everyone else, we greedy pilots need to dig into our pockets and take a big pay cut to keep our airlines solvent. They are all depending on us! Who's with me?

Couple o' scabs . . . . maybe. Certainly not anyone with a modicum of common sense or self-respect.

Ty

 

[Sedona16]

For those of you who can’t remember here are the twelve year captain rates from United (Delta had similar rates on same equipment) eight years ago.

747 $355.84/hr, 777 $316.48/hr, 757/767 $264.89/hr, A320 $254.01/hr, 737 (old generation) $226.60/hr

Also $8/hr international override and $15/hr night override.

Now compare to the current rates:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/united.html

Never has the pay been gutted so bad (mostly by BK judges) as it was directly after 911. Now we have a bunch of management apologists and "market conditions" guys explaining year after year why they need to stay lower than they have historically ever been save pre-ALPA and Dave Benekie (not sure how you spell his name). It’s just sad. The regionals are littered with these types who never grew any. We must keep fighting. I believe there will be an opportunity in the next four years to make some gains barring all the naysayers out there.

When the current contract expires at Delta in four years top pay will be roughly $227/hr. A fifth year 737 F.O. will make $114/hr. Still pretty crappy from a historic standpoint. A decent place to launch a nice pay raise from however. I know most guys I have talked to at Delta want "restoration". Depending on if you add inflation into that or not makes a HUGE difference. Does anybody here know the exact total percentage of pay cuts the Delta guys ended up with? If you look at the top pay at Delta now on the 777 verses pre 911 it shows a 65% drop. Not sure if that was the exact same percent for lower paying or F.O. Positions. I believe Leo Mullen and Co dropped the pay during two separate pay cuts?

 

[milky]

The unions would have a leg to stand on if the companies were making money. How do you say that the management is screwing you when the company is barely solvent? You can make fun of us 'market guys' all you want, but your company is in business to MAKE MONEY, not to give you a job. They are going to pay you as little as the market dictates. Right now, even paying you what they pay you, they are not making money. Funny how you guys make fun of the auto execs on these boards, but when you ask your company to pay you more when they are already losing money, you think they are idiots and evil for not doing so. You are not entitled to any amount of pay. They are required to pay you the amount that you will take for the service you provide. Maybe it will change, but right now, there are plenty of you willing to work for what the company is paying. I would venture a guess that MANY of you would work for a less than you're currently being paid. Sure, you'd mumble under your breath about it, but you'd do it because you don't want to find a job doing something else, or you're afraid to go to a different company because you cannot afford to start over (another great job your unions have done for you). Call us what you will, but reality will hit you someday.
Should you try to get every dime the company will pay you to fly? Of course. Should you have some idea of reality when you look at your company's solvency before you demaind your pay rates go back to 1990's levels? If you want that new pay raise to last more than a few months, you will.

Ok, start attacking me.

 

[Sedona16]

The unions would have a leg to stand on if the companies were making money. How do you say that the management is screwing you when the company is barely solvent? You can make fun of us 'market guys' all you want, but your company is in business to MAKE MONEY, not to give you a job. They are going to pay you as little as the market dictates. Right now, even paying you what they pay you, they are not making money. Funny how you guys make fun of the auto execs on these boards, but when you ask your company to pay you more when they are already losing money, you think they are idiots and evil for not doing so. You are not entitled to any amount of pay. They are required to pay you the amount that you will take for the service you provide. Maybe it will change, but right now, there are plenty of you willing to work for what the company is paying. I would venture a guess that MANY of you would work for a less than you're currently being paid. Sure, you'd mumble under your breath about it, but you'd do it because you don't want to find a job doing something else, or you're afraid to go to a different company because you cannot afford to start over (another great job your unions have done for you). Call us what you will, but reality will hit you someday.
Should you try to get every dime the company will pay you to fly? Of course. Should you have some idea of reality when you look at your company's solvency before you demaind your pay rates go back to 1990's levels? If you want that new pay raise to last more than a few months, you will.

Ok, start attacking me.

If you are not an active commercial pilot and you don’t have anything to motivate those who are to raise the bar please go somewhere else. Fyi there are people that also thought oil tripled on price in a very short period of time due to supply and demand. I can tell you it was not how much oil was being consumed across the globe but rather speculation and perceptions perpetuated by a relative few. If you keep telling the 25 year old regional pilots market conditions have be laid to never get a raise and they should expect pay cuts because its the only way the business will survive then that is what will happen.

There have been countless times in history when much more insurmountable odds as raising the bar in one industry have been overcome. You people who want to focus on the negative and the why nots instead of the whys are the biggest part of the problem. Perhaps you and Michael Moore can go make another movie that focuses on the problems. There are still some out her however who will focus on the positive and where necessary step up the fight for positive change. Have fun rolling over and crying into your cannot do blanket.

PS- The point of this thread was to show things are improving and the time to strike while the iron is at least warm is coming. No more rolling over, not now.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Everyone is entitled to the fantasy that they can magically turn back the clock. In fact there is a union out there just for guys like you : USAPA.

Of course many rational people have to suffer for their delusion.

I stand by my statement that if you want 200K+, you'll never find it in the cockpit of an airplane.

Some folks have higher thresholds for disappointment than others.

 

[Bringupthebird]

so how does that translate when it comes time for you to vote on a pay package? do you vote to release scope b/c of this view of yours? Do you vote to decrease your pay?

What "pay package" do you think will be put in front of you. Contracts are negotiated, not dictated. Pilots don't have line item veto on contracts either.

With Obama's fascination with meddling in private industry, you can practically be assured that there will be some sort of ATSB 2 to save the airline business. And with that will come the restrictions on employee pay and raises. And the government is not about to let pilots go on strike and put their investment in jeopardy not as long as they have the NMB to protect them.

All I'm saying is give reality a chance!

 

[Ty Webb]

All hail the new Village Idiot!

I stand by my statement that if you want 200K+, you'll never find it in the cockpit of an airplane.

You're a moron. AirTran had dozens of pilots make that last year, you jackass.

Get up off your knees, wipe off your friggin' chin, and be a man, fool.