Should captain pay top out at 150K?

[Bringupthebird]

ring up the bird--
what's the point of telling us that we don't think we should be paid more? why say that?

Because the sentiment here is that if you want it bad enough, you can get it ("it" being significantly higher wages). The reality is that airline flying didn't become the high paying profession it once was simply because the pilots wanted it. That had something to do with it, but it was also a combination of industry growth and maturity that we are not likely to ever see again. So those who really want to pull in 200k+ better choose their careers more wisely, because it will likely not be found in the front office of an airplane.

And life is way too short to pin your hopes on "tomarrow" making it any better.

 

[waveflyer]

so how does that translate when it comes time for you to vote on a pay package? do you vote to release scope b/c of this view of yours? Do you vote to decrease your pay?

I would say that the pay had a lot more factors involved. #1- the solid belief that you are a professional and deserve professional pay. Apparently you don't- that's sad. Don't tell me to get out of the industry. With your attitude... you should--- and our industry would have that much more pride.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

There is zero chance I would vote yes on a concession. I got hired under a concessionary contract...I've gotta see something more to have something to give back.

 

[Ty Webb]

Times are tough out there so just like everyone else, we greedy pilots need to dig into our pockets and take a big pay cut to keep our airlines solvent. They are all depending on us! Who's with me?

Couple o' scabs . . . . maybe. Certainly not anyone with a modicum of common sense or self-respect.

Ty

 

[Sedona16]

For those of you who can’t remember here are the twelve year captain rates from United (Delta had similar rates on same equipment) eight years ago.

747 $355.84/hr, 777 $316.48/hr, 757/767 $264.89/hr, A320 $254.01/hr, 737 (old generation) $226.60/hr

Also $8/hr international override and $15/hr night override.

Now compare to the current rates:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/united.html

Never has the pay been gutted so bad (mostly by BK judges) as it was directly after 911. Now we have a bunch of management apologists and "market conditions" guys explaining year after year why they need to stay lower than they have historically ever been save pre-ALPA and Dave Benekie (not sure how you spell his name). It’s just sad. The regionals are littered with these types who never grew any. We must keep fighting. I believe there will be an opportunity in the next four years to make some gains barring all the naysayers out there.

When the current contract expires at Delta in four years top pay will be roughly $227/hr. A fifth year 737 F.O. will make $114/hr. Still pretty crappy from a historic standpoint. A decent place to launch a nice pay raise from however. I know most guys I have talked to at Delta want "restoration". Depending on if you add inflation into that or not makes a HUGE difference. Does anybody here know the exact total percentage of pay cuts the Delta guys ended up with? If you look at the top pay at Delta now on the 777 verses pre 911 it shows a 65% drop. Not sure if that was the exact same percent for lower paying or F.O. Positions. I believe Leo Mullen and Co dropped the pay during two separate pay cuts?

 

[milky]

The unions would have a leg to stand on if the companies were making money. How do you say that the management is screwing you when the company is barely solvent? You can make fun of us 'market guys' all you want, but your company is in business to MAKE MONEY, not to give you a job. They are going to pay you as little as the market dictates. Right now, even paying you what they pay you, they are not making money. Funny how you guys make fun of the auto execs on these boards, but when you ask your company to pay you more when they are already losing money, you think they are idiots and evil for not doing so. You are not entitled to any amount of pay. They are required to pay you the amount that you will take for the service you provide. Maybe it will change, but right now, there are plenty of you willing to work for what the company is paying. I would venture a guess that MANY of you would work for a less than you're currently being paid. Sure, you'd mumble under your breath about it, but you'd do it because you don't want to find a job doing something else, or you're afraid to go to a different company because you cannot afford to start over (another great job your unions have done for you). Call us what you will, but reality will hit you someday.
Should you try to get every dime the company will pay you to fly? Of course. Should you have some idea of reality when you look at your company's solvency before you demaind your pay rates go back to 1990's levels? If you want that new pay raise to last more than a few months, you will.

Ok, start attacking me.

 

[Sedona16]

The unions would have a leg to stand on if the companies were making money. How do you say that the management is screwing you when the company is barely solvent? You can make fun of us 'market guys' all you want, but your company is in business to MAKE MONEY, not to give you a job. They are going to pay you as little as the market dictates. Right now, even paying you what they pay you, they are not making money. Funny how you guys make fun of the auto execs on these boards, but when you ask your company to pay you more when they are already losing money, you think they are idiots and evil for not doing so. You are not entitled to any amount of pay. They are required to pay you the amount that you will take for the service you provide. Maybe it will change, but right now, there are plenty of you willing to work for what the company is paying. I would venture a guess that MANY of you would work for a less than you're currently being paid. Sure, you'd mumble under your breath about it, but you'd do it because you don't want to find a job doing something else, or you're afraid to go to a different company because you cannot afford to start over (another great job your unions have done for you). Call us what you will, but reality will hit you someday.
Should you try to get every dime the company will pay you to fly? Of course. Should you have some idea of reality when you look at your company's solvency before you demaind your pay rates go back to 1990's levels? If you want that new pay raise to last more than a few months, you will.

Ok, start attacking me.

If you are not an active commercial pilot and you don’t have anything to motivate those who are to raise the bar please go somewhere else. Fyi there are people that also thought oil tripled on price in a very short period of time due to supply and demand. I can tell you it was not how much oil was being consumed across the globe but rather speculation and perceptions perpetuated by a relative few. If you keep telling the 25 year old regional pilots market conditions have be laid to never get a raise and they should expect pay cuts because its the only way the business will survive then that is what will happen.

There have been countless times in history when much more insurmountable odds as raising the bar in one industry have been overcome. You people who want to focus on the negative and the why nots instead of the whys are the biggest part of the problem. Perhaps you and Michael Moore can go make another movie that focuses on the problems. There are still some out her however who will focus on the positive and where necessary step up the fight for positive change. Have fun rolling over and crying into your cannot do blanket.

PS- The point of this thread was to show things are improving and the time to strike while the iron is at least warm is coming. No more rolling over, not now.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Everyone is entitled to the fantasy that they can magically turn back the clock. In fact there is a union out there just for guys like you : USAPA.

Of course many rational people have to suffer for their delusion.

I stand by my statement that if you want 200K+, you'll never find it in the cockpit of an airplane.

Some folks have higher thresholds for disappointment than others.

 

[Bringupthebird]

so how does that translate when it comes time for you to vote on a pay package? do you vote to release scope b/c of this view of yours? Do you vote to decrease your pay?

What "pay package" do you think will be put in front of you. Contracts are negotiated, not dictated. Pilots don't have line item veto on contracts either.

With Obama's fascination with meddling in private industry, you can practically be assured that there will be some sort of ATSB 2 to save the airline business. And with that will come the restrictions on employee pay and raises. And the government is not about to let pilots go on strike and put their investment in jeopardy not as long as they have the NMB to protect them.

All I'm saying is give reality a chance!

 

[Ty Webb]

All hail the new Village Idiot!

I stand by my statement that if you want 200K+, you'll never find it in the cockpit of an airplane.

You're a moron. AirTran had dozens of pilots make that last year, you jackass.

Get up off your knees, wipe off your friggin' chin, and be a man, fool.

 

[milky]

Don't try to sell your reality here. Nobody wants to hear it. I think that's the sentiment. We deserve more, and we'll keep complaining on a chat forum until we get it.

Oh, you want to me risk my job for it? I do have a family to raise and bills to pay. I'm 'barely' getting by on what I make. I cannot afford to risk that.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Oh, you want to me risk my job for it? I do have a family to raise and bills to pay. I'm 'barely' getting by on what I make. I cannot afford to risk that.

They are betting on that.

 

[Bringupthebird]

You're a moron. AirTran had dozens of pilots make that last year, you jackass.

At $153/hr, seems pretty difficult.

I don't begrudge anyone making money, that's what we're here for. But to think that the clock will be rolled back to 1971 just because we think it should be just makes the entire profession look like fools.

Your post proves that you're a reasonable, thoughtful man. What evidence can you cite that shows wages headed on the upswing in the next 6-12 months?

 

[Ty Webb]

Anyone who knows our contract/work rules/scheduling inefficiencies has no problem understanding that making 25- 50% more than your hourly rate x 1,000 is not that hard to do.

 

[Green]

At $153/hr, seems pretty difficult.

I don't begrudge anyone making money, that's what we're here for. But to think that the clock will be rolled back to 1971 just because we think it should be just makes the entire profession look like fools.

Your post proves that you're a reasonable, thoughtful man. What evidence can you cite that shows wages headed on the upswing in the next 6-12 months?

you've either spent too long at AWA or have listened to too many brown bag lunches. You sound like you're starting to believe Parker's BS! Oil can go from 40 to 90 a barrel and the company still makes money yet they can't afford to pay us 200k??? That spike in oil eclipses any pay raise we could dream of and the company adjusted just fine. I believe the cp's office was quoting 100/barrel as our break even point. Of course they won't come out and say "sure we can afford to pay more.." But if we ever grow the cajones to demand more they will adapt just fine.

 

[jhiflyin]

no it shouldn't

 

[Bringupthebird]

you've either spent too long at AWA or have listened to too many brown bag lunches. You sound like you're starting to believe Parker's BS! Oil can go from 40 to 90 a barrel and the company still makes money yet they can't afford to pay us 200k??? That spike in oil eclipses any pay raise we could dream of and the company adjusted just fine. I believe the cp's office was quoting 100/barrel as our break even point. Of course they won't come out and say "sure we can afford to pay more.." But if we ever grow the cajones to demand more they will adapt just fine.

The company "adjusted" by kicking 98 fellow pilots to the curb and due to hedges is still paying double or more for jet fuel, but that's not the point.

The point is that the underlying fundamental source of leverage that pilots need to gain substantial gains in wages (and it's more than having a collective will)simply doesn't exist. Wages spiraled upwards during a time when the survival of an airline depended on rapid expansion. Now Parkers and the rest of the CEO underachievers could care less if an airline survives or not. They have little invested personally and could have an easier time attracting start-up capital than they would funding an airline whose labor costs were even slightly skewed upward. In fact airlines like NW scrambled to perpetuate the post 9-11 crisis in order to foster an environment that hindered wage rebounds even if it meant largely missing out on the small sliver of good times the airlines enjoyed.

No, I do not believe that pilot wages are tied to what management perceives they can afford, but on their collective willingness to let the wage genie out of the bottle when they've spent the last 25 years getting him in.

The original title of this thread asked if captain pay SHOULD top out at 150K. I am simply saying that 150K will likely be the "good old days" 5 years from now and there won't be one pilot job that goes unfilled, although many of the current pilots will (or should) leave for for more lucrative careers by then.

 

[C180drvr]

InstructorDude and the other person are truly ignorant. Only in the airline profession will you find goofballs even discussing what we "should" earn or what a company "can afford". Completely ridiculous. My friends in other professions such as law, medicine, etc. never would discuss they shouldn't earn more than X. As far as experience, I have friends who hired on with law firms starting at $165K with 3 years training - law school. They never went to the firm and said it's too much. Ignorant people such as these denigrate the profession. Airline pilots have significant training and responsibility comparable to other highly skilled professions, yet only we have goofballs that would suggest caps on earning or think they're qualified to suggest what we "should" earn.

 

[Aviator7576]

200k...why yes we can!

Bringupthebird...

Not sure where you are getting you salary info,but ALL ups captains make over 200k/yr. I'm sure the same can be said of fedex captains as well. Just because you have lowered expectations for yourself, don't pass those on to your children for heaven's sake. They deserve a better life than apparently you can dream.

As far as Sig and his fighter pilot resume, not sure how you can amass 12k hours flying and still be in your 20s. I've heard of the rubber pencil, but that is ridiculous! Navy fighter guys just don't accumulate that kind of time 1.2 at a time.

JTF

Aviator7576

 

[Green]

The company "adjusted" by kicking 98 fellow pilots to the curb and due to hedges is still paying double or more for jet fuel, but that's not the point.

The point is that the underlying fundamental source of leverage that pilots need to gain substantial gains in wages (and it's more than having a collective will)simply doesn't exist. Wages spiraled upwards during a time when the survival of an airline depended on rapid expansion. Now Parkers and the rest of the CEO underachievers could care less if an airline survives or not. They have little invested personally and could have an easier time attracting start-up capital than they would funding an airline whose labor costs were even slightly skewed upward. In fact airlines like NW scrambled to perpetuate the post 9-11 crisis in order to foster an environment that hindered wage rebounds even if it meant largely missing out on the small sliver of good times the airlines enjoyed.

No, I do not believe that pilot wages are tied to what management perceives they can afford, but on their collective willingness to let the wage genie out of the bottle when they've spent the last 25 years getting him in.

The original title of this thread asked if captain pay SHOULD top out at 150K. I am simply saying that 150K will likely be the "good old days" 5 years from now and there won't be one pilot job that goes unfilled, although many of the current pilots will (or should) leave for for more lucrative careers by then.

It was never easy to get significant payraises....Point to one good post-deregulation contract that didn't require significant risks (strike, slowdown, etc). Instead of coming up with excuses for management we should be developing strategies to restore the profession. Pilots these days just don't seem to have the cajones to get the job done. It's embarrassing.

You talk market forces, management, etc...Do you truly believe that gibberish? Don't you think Dave Benchke was given some pretty sound reasoning why pilots can't make more? He didn't believe the bs. We all need to have some respect for our career and stop making excuses for management...