Should an ATP be required for both pilots?

[JustaNumber]

Answer: Who cares? The world was a much better place for pilots when the regionals truly were that, no jets more than 50 seats, and those only in tightly scoped numbers. The only benefit RJs really bring is to allow increased frequencies at UNcongested airports. Passengers hate 'em. The mainline jets and jobs they replaced paid better, had better QOL, etc. etc. You really care if Mesa, Pinnacle, GoJets, Republic, etc go T/U? Only if you work at such a place, of course. And to you who do, I am furloughed right now and would not wish it on anyone. Hopefully you'll find something better before any downsizing and it won't be an issue. What you may even find is that they have to improve their T&Cs to get qualified applicants - win/win.

Unfortunately, you're living in yesterday's world. We will never again see jets only at major airlines, with pilots paid like movie stars. The new reality is that our union has allowed and encouraged the ultimate B-scale to be created, and it's not going away. What we can hope for is that, just like in the past, the B-scales get brought closer to the A-scales. You very well may retire from a regional, but in the future it won't be such a crappy place to work.

I also think your "passengers hate 'em" comment may not be entirely accurate. Would you rather sit in the back of a DC-9-10, or anywhere on an E-170 or even CRJ-900? I would argue that today's modern RJ's are acceptable means of transportation for most of the flying public. Of course, if you ask them, they all want to fly 747's to Dothan Alabama, but that's not reality.

By the way, good luck with your employment situation-- I mean that.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss. Hell yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

 

[Nevets]

I also think your "passengers hate 'em" comment may not be entirely accurate. Would you rather sit in the back of a DC-9-10, or anywhere on an E-170 or even CRJ-900? I would argue that today's modern RJ's are acceptable means of transportation for most of the flying public. Of course, if you ask them, they all want to fly 747's to Dothan Alabama, but that's not reality.

When XJT was doing the Branded, we would here almost unanimous positive comments about the ERJ. In fact, one the things they liked about it is that it didn't take as long to board or de-board as a 747. So I don't think that comment that they all want to fly 747s is necessarily true.

 

[q100]

Unfortunately, you're living in yesterday's world. We will never again see jets only at major airlines, with pilots paid like movie stars. The new reality is that our union has allowed and encouraged the ultimate B-scale to be created, and it's not going away. What we can hope for is that, just like in the past, the B-scales get brought closer to the A-scales. You very well may retire from a regional, but in the future it won't be such a crappy place to work.

I also think your "passengers hate 'em" comment may not be entirely accurate. Would you rather sit in the back of a DC-9-10, or anywhere on an E-170 or even CRJ-900? I would argue that today's modern RJ's are acceptable means of transportation for most of the flying public. Of course, if you ask them, they all want to fly 747's to Dothan Alabama, but that's not reality.

By the way, good luck with your employment situation-- I mean that.

Thanks for the sentiment. I was, by the way, once upon a time at a regional that was a great place to work. But there were plenty of other contract regionals that were more than happy to undercut us, management that was only too happy to let them, and all of a sudden we got "merged" into a sister company that, from all accounts, is not such a great place to work. I moved on to what I thought were bigger and better things, or so I thought...

Maybe there will be regional carriers that can treat their employees well in the future, especially if the barriers to entry are raised so that it becomes harder for bottom-feeders with an impoverished bunch of SJS-suffering indentured servants to undercut them...

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Unfortunately, you're living in yesterday's world. We will never again see jets only at major airlines, with pilots paid like movie stars. The new reality is that our union has allowed and encouraged the ultimate B-scale to be created, and it's not going away. What we can hope for is that, just like in the past, the B-scales get brought closer to the A-scales. You very well may retire from a regional, but in the future it won't be such a crappy place to work.

I also think your "passengers hate 'em" comment may not be entirely accurate. Would you rather sit in the back of a DC-9-10, or anywhere on an E-170 or even CRJ-900? I would argue that today's modern RJ's are acceptable means of transportation for most of the flying public. Of course, if you ask them, they all want to fly 747's to Dothan Alabama, but that's not reality.

By the way, good luck with your employment situation-- I mean that.

I would much rather sit in the back of a 170/190 that is flown at a major airline by major airline pilots with at least 10,000 hours between them. I would not fly in the back of a 777 if it had a regional pilot with 400 hours was sitting next to a regional pilot with 3000 hours. I am a commuter and I drive farther to an airport that is served by mainline flights rather than take the toy jets flown by two dorks from "The Real World"

 

[brokeflyer]

I also think your "passengers hate 'em" comment may not be entirely accurate. Would you rather sit in the back of a DC-9-10, or anywhere on an E-170 or even CRJ-900? I would argue that today's modern RJ's are acceptable means of transportation for most of the flying public. Of course, if you ask them, they all want to fly 747's to Dothan Alabama, but that's not reality.

its not the plane, its the "below average" captain america flying it.

I would rather sit in the back of a dc9 than a RJ....dc9 pilots aren't 400 hour wonders just up from vero beach....it takes a lotta skill and good instrument discipline to fly non glass these days.

 

[j41driver]

I also think FO's should go to the sim every 6 months like captains. Its idiotic to think FOs do stall recovery only once a year, have an engine failure once a year, fly a non-precision approach once a year, etc.

Did that at ACA back in the day. Not so much at the 'Tran.

 

[JustaNumber]

No posts in this thread in a while, but lots of people still taking the poll. I would like to know why 112 people don't think requiring the ATP would be a good idea. If you voted no, could you please explain?

 

[cjdriver]

Because they don't have the min's to get one, or just don't have one if they do.

 

[FO 4 Life]

No posts in this thread in a while, but lots of people still taking the poll. I would like to know why 112 people don't think requiring the ATP would be a good idea. If you voted no, could you please explain?

I voted no because that is not the fix. The ATP is a piece of paper/plastic. If the poll would have said "Should ATP minimums be required" I would have voted yes.

I took my ATP in a Seminole along with an Eagle driver. I flew so much better the next week in the 72 after that.

 

[JustaNumber]

I voted no because that is not the fix. The ATP is a piece of paper/plastic. If the poll would have said "Should ATP minimums be required" I would have voted yes.

I took my ATP in a Seminole along with an Eagle driver. I flew so much better the next week in the 72 after that.

Agreed, taking the ATP doesn't necessarily make better pilots. But creating the extra hoop to jump through, especially the ATP mins required to get the piece of plastic, initially drastically decreases the number of people who would qualify to fly an RJ. When the regionals eventually start hiring again to cover new flying, they won't be able to. The price of the existing flights will go up. Airlines will make more money, and will want to fly more to meet increasing demand, but can't hire enough for the wages they offer. You do the math: they convert the additional revenue into higher pilot wages to be able to add the flights they want.

Now with higher wages offered, more people will want to become regional pilots. Corporate pilots, ex-military pilots, and others will start competing for the RJ slots. Now the regionals will have a larger pool of much more qualified pilots from which to choose, and much better pilots can be hired.

So it's not that Johnny living in his parent's basement will be hired because he now has a fancy ATP certificate in his pocket; he will be bypassed for the much more qualified and mature individual who already had his ATP but never considered working for $19K a year.

 

[Erlanger]

Requiring an ATP atleast should be good to perpetuate the pilot shortage or for the shortage to come and hopefully that would drive up wages.

 

[jonjuan]

Requiring an ATP atleast should be good to perpetuate the pilot shortage or for the shortage to come and hopefully that would drive up wages.

Nope-requiring an ATP as a prerequisite for a regional pilot job would simply mean more fly by night ATP shops would go into business. It would drive up wages at these joints, but not the regionals. Likewise, there's no lack of supply of pilots with a 737 type going to Southwest.

 

[skyaddict]

Nope-requiring an ATP as a prerequisite for a regional pilot job would simply mean more fly by night ATP shops would go into business. It would drive up wages at these joints, but not the regionals. Likewise, there's no lack of supply of pilots with a 737 type going to Southwest.

Nope. Sure it would boost wages at a gazillion fly by night ATP outfits, but it would also limit the supply of regional fodder by virtue of the 1500 h requirement for an ATP. I agree with the post that really all that is required is a 1500 h time requirement, not the actual ATP piece of plastic... however, it is much more politically palitable to sell it as an ATP requirement and if we pick an arbitrary number of 1500 -why not?- after all the mighty ATP (which is, after all, in essence nothing more than an multi-engine IFR checkride again) is required for Captains, so let Joe Q. Public rest assure that the SJS FO is also legally "ready" to be a "Skygod"- even if really it is all about the 1500 h.

As for the ATP fly by nights-- if someone is silly enough to waste their money on one, fine. But there are a ton of ways to get 1500 h (get all your CFI ratings for one, and instruct at least a little bit) other than forking over money to a scumbag outfit. The ATP checkride is straightforward and passing the mickey mouse written doesn't require wasting time or money at a seminar either- a simple copy of Gleim' book and some self-study over a few months hile one builds the 1500 h is sufficient.

 

[livin'thesim]

In addition, new hires should be able to pass a captain ride and earn the type.

No more trainees in the right seat.

 

[cjdriver]

In addition, new hires should be able to pass a captain ride and earn the type.

No more trainees in the right seat.

I don't know if you're serious, but I totally agree with this. Send a new hire with an ATP to type school. The hires will be better, and the whole operation will be much safer.

 

[livin'thesim]

Dead serious.

If you're going to sit in the front seat of a transport category aircraft, you should have an airline transport category certificate with type rating.

You should also be about 70% on the captaining skills. Think 2000 hour freight dog IFR expert instead of 300 hour bridge program systems expert.

 

[rustypigeon]

Nope-requiring an ATP as a prerequisite for a regional pilot job would simply mean more fly by night ATP shops would go into business.

Is the current system with fly by night Commercial shops better?

 

[WayBack]

an ATP won't fix stupid. Just look at the Captain of that ExpressJet flight. She couldn't think for herself.

 

[fam62c]

It's a great idea and one that I wish would happen but it never will. The airlines will fight it and say that it's not in the best interest of the consumer because it could drive costs and ticket prices up. Economics will always win out over safety and there's no way that the airlines are going to see their supply of green pilots who are willing to work for nothing shut off. A large surplus of pilots keeps unions and pilot wages in check and that's what the industry wants. The race to the bottom will continue and the thing in Buffalo will fade from the public's memory very quickly as they search for the cheapest ticket.

 

[cjdriver]

an ATP won't fix stupid. Just look at the Captain of that ExpressJet flight. She couldn't think for herself.

Actually, this might prove the theory. If an ATP were required, judging by her behavior, she may not have had the intestinal fortitude to continue her training to that level and quit before she even got on with a carrier. Someone else that had come up the hard way through determination and grit, would have been in the captains seat and got those poor souls off. Just a hypothesis.

 

[BoilerUP]

Actually, this might prove the theory. If an ATP were required, judging by her behavior, she may not have had the intestinal fortitude to continue her training to that level and quit before she even got on with a carrier. Someone else that had come up the hard way through determination and grit, would have been in the captains seat and got those poor souls off. Just a hypothesis.

Reaching juuuuuuuuuuuuust a bit, doncha think?

 

[av8orboy]

So, you REQUIRE an ATP:

-PFT skyrockets
-Low-timers will work for free (not just nearly free) to build time
-Loopholes are employed (Scheduled 135)

On the up side, more pilots will be exposed to "real flying" in the 135/91 environment and that may payoff in the end.

1500 across the board. 135, 91K and 121.

 

[livin'thesim]

135 Cargo 1000TT
135 Passenger 1200TT
121 CA or FO - ATP with type rating prior to revenue flight.

Don't forget that 135 VFR is still 500TT. So, you theoretically could have a 500 hr hour pilot flying a 402 full of pax in the Caribbean.

Personally, I don't think there is much difference between 1000 and 1200 hours, at least for a piston twin job.

 

[brokeflyer]

2500TT

i got grandkids.

 

[wlacy]

Back in my school days I had an Ex-Eastern captain as a B727 sim instructor. He'd tell us stories about diverting into a remote Rocky-mountain airstrip, deplaning the passengers, emptying out the catering carts and liquor trays while resting in the shade beneath the wings of his three-hole'r for multiple hours before the company discovered their actual location. True or not: it demonstrates how our litigious-minded society and sue-happy habits have coerced such actions from malleable, and spineless captains.

 

[acpilot]

135 Cargo 1000TT
135 Passenger 1200TT
121 CA or FO - ATP with type rating prior to revenue flight.

Don't forget that 135 VFR is still 500TT. So, you theoretically could have a 500 hr hour pilot flying a 402 full of pax in the Caribbean.

Personally, I don't think there is much difference between 1000 and 1200 hours, at least for a piston twin job.

Lowering mins for freight (99% single pilot ops; rare to have autopilot) wouldn't fix anything. If a change is really necessary, requiring 1,500 for cargo would be the way to go.

1,500 across the board sounds pretty good.

 

[BoilerUP]

Lowering mins for freight (99% single pilot ops; rare to have autopilot) wouldn't fix anything.

Actually, allowing developing pilots to perform single-pilot ops with no autopilot, in a situation that puts no passenger's lives at risk, would go a long way to building pilot-in-command decision making skills, not to mention reducing the growing & prevailing dependence on automation.

 

[b19]

Reality Check

Just to add a little reality to the discussion, I would suggest that people familiarize themselves with the ICAO MPL Crew license.

It is essentially a video game ticket that allows a 200 hour pilot to pretend to be an FO.

It is already in the EU, it could come here.

Any thoughts ?

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Actually, allowing developing pilots to perform single-pilot ops with no autopilot, in a situation that puts no passenger's lives at risk, would go a long way to building pilot-in-command decision making skills, not to mention reducing the growing & prevailing dependence on automation.

Bingo!

Peace.

Rekks