Short Field Performance - Best Swept-Wing Corp. Jet?

[xrated]

Airliners have to work and work all the time. Let's just run a G-String and a Legacy around the clock and see which one breaks first. The Legacy will cycle the G-V into the ground I bet.

*Imagines a caricature of a Gulfstream huffing and puffing (sucking wind) as the Legacy smiles and taxies by.*
.

You don't know much about Gulfstreams do you? I'd put a G up against an EMB any day. As far as the airliner deal, My best friend is a capt. on the 145/135 for Eagle, and boy does he have stories about how well the thing is built.

 

[GVFlyer]

Go on, bust a gut and gives us the full story ! Just exactly why isn't a Legacy a serious corporate jet ? I have a sneaking suspision you haven't yet quite come to terms with the fact that a corporate jet isn't a toy for the flight crew...but lets see.

OK, I don't know what you mean by your comments and you obviously don't understand Gulfstream's design philosophy, but are you really a flight test engineer? I have to know how to approach the Legacy's design deficiencies with you. What's the p sub q of dirt? Answer this and we'll talk structures and AD's, otherwise I'll address the 3100nm, 39,000 ft ceiling, .80 mach, no flow pack at max take-off power limitations of the Barbie Jet in depth.

http://www.safe-skies.com/EMB145_1.jpg









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[Silver Wings]

I tend to agree with GV. The Legacy is a commuter/regional aircraft built for the regionals by the regionals.....not to mention designed in a third world country.

Dear oh dear ! I see you two really believe that the primary objective of a business jet is to excite the crew with new gadgets and the last 0.001% of performance. I bet you floor the pedal to race away from the lights every time as well......some sort of male ego thing.

Let me explain. A business jet is primarily a tool for doing business. good business is when you do a good job at a low cost and make a healthy profit. bad business is when you have hgh costs and high ego and low profit.

The Legacy may not be able to beat a GV in many areas of pure performance, but it can carry just as many people in pretty much the same comfort and with the same amenities to all the same places (and perhaps more)... OK it may have to re-fuel.... adding 60 mins on a 14hr flight time..... but hell it'll only save you $50,000 or more on the operating costs.

If the GV/GX are so great for the long range flights, then how come the fleet average cycle time is around 2hrs ? gee that doesn't seem to me like most of the time these birds are doing the job they were designed for...and that seems like a real stupid ego driven buying decision.

Way I see it...about 90% or more of the GV/GX flights can be done perfectly adequately by a Legacy....when (and only when) you need the ultra long range then charter in on e of these...or a really big jet and have some luxury...a B747 VIP or similar BBJ2.... You'll save a fortune doing this...

Nice little trick I don't see the GV/GX doing is being in two places at the same time on two different missions !?! Yhe well think about it ... for the price of one G550 sat on the deck, tanks dry you get two Legacy and full tanks in both for hundreds of hours for years.............

The third world comment...clearly shows you are mentally challenged and I don't wish to cause you more suffering by pointing out that you are talking rubbish......ignorance can be cured.......as long as the diagnosis is accepted....

 

[LegacyDriver]

The BARBIE JET is a Challenger.

As for the Legacy...

I've flown it for nearly four years now and have never had a single problem with it.

Your mileage may vary.

A Gulfstream wouldn't take the pounding an airliner takes. It isn't made to do that.

The Gulfstream is a fine airplane in its own right, there is no doubt about it. So is the Legacy.

FL410 is overrated. I'm not into melanoma and cosmic radiation myself.

And I've flown all the Citations except the X and the ERJ is more advanced in the cockpit than all of them. You can't just call something a "Primus 1000" and compare it to another "Primus 1000". The Ultra doesn't have five tubes. It has horrid ergonomics. They stuck a couple of CRTs into a 1970s design. It is still just plain awful to use.

The Primus 2000 is okay, but it doesn't do *that* much more than a 1000. I personally do not consider the 2000 worth the additional cost. VNAV? Big deal. Do it in your head. That's why they pay you the big bucks. (Yes, I have flown the Primus 2000 and I consider it a marginal improvement in some areas and slightly more annoying in others.)

No pack at max power? HUH? I think you are referring to the ancient A1 engines on the 145, not the A1E.

The Legacy is safe, reliable, redundant, affordable, and darned-near idiot proof. From a pilot's standpoint I consider it a pleasure to fly and it has that muscle car crouch that any red-blooded American should love, no matter where it's built.

 

[banned username 2]

FL410 is overrated. I'm not into melanoma and cosmic radiation myself.

That is what TinFoil hats are for! I never leave home without mine!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Direct Operating Costs:


@ $3.00 gallon (the more gas goes up the more affordable the Legacy is.)


G-V $2,475/hour
Legacy $1,243/hour

I don't think FL510 and .85 Mach are worth 1,200+ bucks an hour, do you?

 

[CatYaaak]

I, too, am curious to see why you think the Legacy is not a serious corporate jet.

This thing is a serious *AIRLINER* I think it would at *least* be an over-engineered business jet.

Airliners have to work and work all the time. Let's just run a G-String and a Legacy around the clock and see which one breaks first. The Legacy will cycle the G-V into the ground I bet.

*Imagines a caricature of a Gulfstream huffing and puffing (sucking wind) as the Legacy smiles and taxies by.*

This has GOT to be a joke, from the "serious airliner" (!!!!) bit to actually thinking an Eggshell-braer toy would see a Gulfstream at all, let alone "sucking wind"...the Gulfstream would be 10,000' higher and who-knows-how-many miles ahead...and increasing the distance...especially during those extra fuel stops the Jungle Jet will have to make.

Yeah, dispatch reliablity is so bad with Gulfstreams....that's why they sell like hotcakes to operators who fly all over the world, and into the remotest parts of it...and have for more than a few decades now. You know, the kind of ops where there are no domiciles with night-shift mx inspecting it every night, rotating aircraft through the fleet, and fixing squawks the long-gone-to-the-hotel airline pilots have written-up. You did notice that airliners "have to work all the time" though, which is good....but you obviously overlooked the fact that, because they do, airlines have to hire these guys called mx techs who have to work on airliners all the time to keep 'em that way. Check them out sometime...wave to them...they are the guys with those big red boxes containing wrenches and other tool-stuff.

But I'd strongly recommend avoiding any dogfights with Gulfstreams while you're flying your Legacy. Stay away from Globals, Falcons, Challengers too, and probably others I'm too lazy to look up. Avoid it because you'll be much, much lower, sentenced to snarking around in "airliner territory", a lot slower, and with less fuel....which adds up to you being meat.

 

[banned username 2]

I don't think FL510 and .85 Mach are worth 1,200+ bucks an hour, do you?

Obviously coming from someone who has never experienced the pride and joy of wearing a TinFoil hat!

(Levity folks, trying to inject some levity here... Is this thing on?!?!?!)

 

[LegacyDriver]

Coming from one who has done it, every airplane has its advantages in a dogfight... The victor is the one who learns to exploit his advantages and deny his enemy's.

The Legacy is quite easy to work on. Most anything that breaks at an outstation can be replaced by a Cessna mechanic in about five minutes. I doubt a Gulfstream could say the same.

Considering how rarely stuff breaks in the Embraer, however...it's not much of an issue.

I don't think a G-V could do STL-CID-STL nine times a day for very long...something far more demanding than LAX-JFK once a day.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Obviously coming from someone who has never experienced the pride and joy of wearing a TinFoil hat!

(Levity folks, trying to inject some levity here... Is this thing on?!?!?!)

Hey, I love ya' man!

 

[GVFlyer]

That is what TinFoil hats are for! I never leave home without mine!

I only wear my Tin Foil Helmet above Flight Level 490 and when I sleep (it protects me from the beams).

GV











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[banned username 2]

I only were my Tin Foil Helmet above Flight Level 49 and when I sleep (it protects me from the beams).

GV

Oh no! You are putting yourself at HIGH RISK! I was at FL430 earlier today and had my TinFoil hat securely in place (even used the chin strap)... If I am up high enough to emit ChemTrails, the TinFoil hat goes on! (Chin strap at FL410 and above, can't risk it falling off!)

 

[Silver Wings]

Summary

I think we can summarise now.

The objective was to give food for thought to a chap looking to buy a new aircraft for his flight dept in 2 years time. Requirement is for US to Hawaii and internal US, with at least 11 pax and a budget not over $25mil, with a new aircraft and full warranty preferred......

OK from that basis...... the answer is what ?

1) A $45mil+ G550/G-X

2) an 8 pax CL604/F2000Ex

3) A super fast pocket rocket Cit X and no space, and perhaps a swim at the end.

3) a Legacy that actually meets every desired criteria.

Sure they could spend the big bucks...... shave 45 minutes off the travel time and feel real clever business types. If all 11 have got golf bags and a few suitcases then they'll be needing a support aircraft chartered in due to baggage restrictions for all except the Legacy. Or they could bunk up and sit two per seat in a CL/Falcon 2000 just so their FBO knows they operate a 'real' business jet...

And that's the whole point. The guys in the pointy end get all de-focused when it comes to quoting numbers and esoteric aerodynamic effects.....who really cares......nobody who really understand what they are buying.

You really should take the time to move back and do a few flights in the back of the G550 (say a typical run) and then do the same flight in the back of a Legacy....is the experience really more than twice as good ? If you think yes....really honestly, then you should spend the big bucks......otherwise compromise. most of the guys in the back drive Mercs/BMW's anyway...they're good, but they certainly don't touch F1's for acceleration.....
It isn't always the ultimate performance that counts.

A point was made regarding operational flexibility, and yes, it is valid....but my goodness getting round at M0.8 and FL390 or perhaps FL410 eventually isn't so terrible....and sure on the odd flight the FL490/510 (which we all know you only rarely get up to) can smooth up a ride and avoid a storm or two...most of the time the big jets don't operate at max capability anyway....jsut think how many 2-3 hr sectors are flown and never climb above FL410 anyway...

There really is no point in quoting lots of detailed, but generalised statistics....it's up to the buyer to get some route studies of thier specific case done for a few of the aircraft potentially meeting the spec....Legacy / G350 I suppose.....and then to look at what practically is being offered at what price....

Goodnight

 

[banned username 2]

First post of this thread...

Which swept-wing Corporate Jet has the best Short Field performance in their size class?


As an example, the Legacy/Gulfstream/Hawker/Citation X/Lear/etc. are swept-wing and the Citation Excel/Ultra/Bravo/Westwind/etc. straight-wing (so the latter don't count).

As you may guess, I am a Legacy fan but wonder how it would compare to others in its class. I'm also curious to see how hot performers like the Lear series stack up to others of their size.

I suppose I could look it up somewhere, but any input is appreciated.

Thanks.

The objective was to give food for thought to a chap looking to buy a new aircraft for his flight dept in 2 years time. Requirement is for US to Hawaii and internal US, with at least 11 pax and a budget not over $25mil, with a new aircraft and full warranty preferred......

Who said anything about 11 passengers??? This thread is about short field performance of swept wing Corporate Jets...

 

[Silver Wings]

Too late and not enough jungle juice

Yeh.... answered another thread.........

It's too late and I'm too sober for this.

 

[banned username 2]

Yeh.... answered another thread.........

It's too late and I'm too sober for this.

LOL... Don't feel bad, I had to triple check which thread I was on to make sure I didn't do the same thing!

 

[GVFlyer]

Direct Operating Costs:


@ $3.00 gallon (the more gas goes up the more affordable the Legacy is.)


G-V $2,475/hour
Legacy $1,243/hour

I don't think FL510 and .85 Mach are worth 1,200+ bucks an hour, do you?

I don't know, the most valuable commodity most senior executives have is time...

I had to go to Conklin and DeDecker for this because Gulfstream does not consider the Legacy to be a business jet and therefore Sales Engineering has never done a Competitive Analysis on the Jungle Jet, but DOC for the Legacy is $1615 per hour for the 49,604 lb Legacy versus $1912 for the 91,000 lb G550. At it's operating deficiency, sorry efficiency, the Legacy would have a DOC of $2963 if it weighed as much as the Gulfstream.

I don't understand why you are trying to compare the two aircraft, I've had Luis Carlos Affonso tell me he couldn't afford to build an aircraft like the Gulfstream because his product is designed to offer the lowest possible seat mile cost, not the 20,000 hour airframe guarantee of the Gulfstream. It is really difficult to find an area in which to objectively compare the two products. Gulfstream has never had a structural failure, such failures are manifold for the Embraer.

It is equally hard to find a common ground upon which to compare the two jets:

G550 Normal Cruise Mach .85 (max M.885) - Legacy normal cruise Mach .78

G550 max altitude 51,000ft - Legacy max alt 39,000ft

G550 cabin alt @ 51000ft= 5960ft - Legacy cabin alt @ 39000ft = 8,000ft.

G550 range 6750nm - Legacy range 3220nm

G550 max cabin differential 10.48 psi - Legacy max cabin diff. 8.1 psi

G550 cabin dimensions: 50'.1"L X 6'2"H X 7'4"W - Legacy 43'L X5'10"H X 6'11"W

G550 automatic anti-ice/de-ice systems - Legacy no

G550 automatic fuel heating - Legacy no fuel heating system

G550 automatic autopilot descent mode for pressirization loss - Legacy no

G550 4 hydraulic systems with fully boosted controls - Legacy 2 hyd. sys. with unboosted elevator controls given to flutter and early mach effects.

G550 Hydraulic Hardover Protection System - Legacy no

G550 4 electrical systems - Legacy two 4 plexed generators

G550 maximum airport altitude 15,000ft. - Legacy max airport alt 8500 ft.

G550 MGTOW 91,000 lbs - Legacy MGTOW 49,604.

G550 Planeview 14.1 inch LCD displays, HUD, Forward Looking InfraRed Enhanced Vision - Legacy normal glass.

G550 Performance Computers, VNAV, Autothrottles, FMS that will fly all of the approaches on earth to include the course reversal without the pilot's assistance, EGPWS with Peaks Mode - Legacy nada

G550 certified for Terrain Critical High Altitude Special Approach and Departure Procedures - Legacy no

G550 automatic three zone temperature control - Legacy no

G550 automatic pressurization control (creates an idealized pressurization model from the FMS flight plan and flies it with no pilot input - not even a button push to turn it on) - Legacy no

The ability to go to 51,000 ft is an advantage not only for maximum range and the ability to get above headwinds, but it is also very usefull to top weather. Just last week on a flight from PHX to MDW I was able to get block FL490-510 to top thunderstorms while everyone else was getting hammered below me or having to divert hundreds of miles to avoid the weather.

In my view a more logical comparison would be between the Legacy and the G200. Both have similar price points and capabilities.

GV




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[GVFlyer]

...and sure on the odd flight the FL490/510 (which we all know you only rarely get up to) can smooth up a ride and avoid a storm or two...most of the time the big jets don't operate at max capability anyway....jsut think how many 2-3 hr sectors are flown and never climb above FL410 anyway...


Goodnight

You need to listen to your radios. Universal has instructions to file us at optimum altitudes which means normally 45,000 going East to take advantage of the winds and 47,000 going West. On a fllight like today from IAD to MSP (1:58) the flight plan called for FL490 to get above the winds. The only time we are stuck down at 41,000 as an initial altitude is when we are above 85,000 lbs - trips of 5725nm to 6750nm.

GV







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[empenage]

Salesperson

I hate sales people.

 

[hogdriver00]

Why do I continue to poke myself in the eye????

Captain Hogdriver,

The Global Excuse operates against the laws of nature and physics. The G550 is the only aircraft that displays pure aeronautical perfection.

GV

WHATEVER!

On a lighter note. How does an old guy like you keep up with all this technology? Are you a VOR to VOR guy?

 

[LegacyDriver]

No auto pressurization? When did this happen? You must be thinking of an EMB-120.

So, you're telling me that the extra $1,200/hour multiplied by five is worth it to save 45 minutes? NO EXECUTIVE is worth that!

I have never seen a structural failure in an EMB and I have been DH in the back with some pretty awful landings.

Why the hell do I want to lug around four hydraulic systems???????? I don't need that weight. I have two with mechanical reversion. I'll take the latter over the former.

Flutter? Mach effects? WTH do I care about that for? There is a thing called VMO/MMO. Stay at or near that number and it isn't an issue any way, and we all know this airplane will go well faster than 0.80 Mach safely.

Again, what is so great about 7000 NM range? NOBODY does that any way.

All the other stuff is simple to fix. VNAV, FMS, etc. requires a simple software change. FLIR and HUD can be added, but again, they are just nice toys and not really NECESSARY to perform the job.

No wonder your airplane weighs so much and burns so much gas. You have all these nifty toys to lug around and rarely, if ever, use...

Like the man said, all airplanes are compromises of one sort or another. I think the Legacy is a great airplane.

 

[empenage]

LegacyDriver

Good luck with GVFlyer!

You are off to a good start with your post! Keep the momentum building

 

[bigD]

I like these kinds of threads. I learn a bunch about the various airplanes you guys argue about.

And because of GVFlyer, I know more about the Gulfstream line of flying phalluses (phalli?) than I ever thought I would!

 

[GVFlyer]

Empennage - Big D

You folks never cut a guy a break!

E - my post to you was pure hyperbole.

D - we have more in common than you think, I mail order brisket, links and ribs from Cooper's in Llano, Republic of Texas.

GV

 

[GVFlyer]

So, you're telling me that the extra $1,200/hour multiplied by five is worth it to save 45 minutes? NO EXECUTIVE is worth that!

...No wonder your airplane weighs so much and burns so much gas. You have all these nifty toys to lug around and rarely, if ever, use...

The current Conklin and DeDecker shows the following Direct Operating Costs:

Gulfstream G550 - $1,912 / hr

Embraer Legacy - $1,615 / hr

GV

 

[Mudworm]

Wouldn't life be ever so much simpler if we all had the ability to choose the aircraft of our choice? Everyone would be happy!

Unfortunately for us it is the guy with the big bucks who makes this decision for us and we only can only influence the end result. That being said I am only too happy to have a job in this enjoyable line of work. Every now and then I even get to eat BBQ at my favorite BBQ joint, BS Muthers in Savannah (as long as no one sells my boss on a Legacy )!

Worm

 

[bigD]

D - we have more in common than you think, I mail order brisket, links and ribs from Cooper's in Llano, Republic of Texas.

GV

Heh heh! That's awesome. Can you get that GV of yours in and out of 4200'? You should make the trip to Llano someday.

 

[GVFlyer]

... Every now and then I even get to eat BBQ at my favorite BBQ joint, BS Muthers in Savannah (as long as no one sells my boss on a Legacy )!

Worm

LOL! BS Muthers on Augusta Road in Garden City? Never heard of it!

GV










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[Flat Spot]

The Avro RJ85 is available in corporate configuration! It would be great. Think about it, FL350, Mach .73, 4 engines and a 5500lb p/h burn at cruise. All of this with a mind blowing range of about 1200mls! On the upside short field performance is great, you also have the ability to fly a coupled 6 deg approach to an autoland.

 

[banned username 2]

You folks never cut a guy a break!

E - my post to you was pure hyperbole.

D - we have more in common than you think, I mail order brisket, links and ribs from Cooper's in Llano, Republic of Texas.

GV

F - What about "F"???? I feel soooo left out!