Short Field Performance - Best Swept-Wing Corp. Jet?

[GVFlyer]

That is what TinFoil hats are for! I never leave home without mine!

I only wear my Tin Foil Helmet above Flight Level 490 and when I sleep (it protects me from the beams).

GV











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[banned username 2]

I only were my Tin Foil Helmet above Flight Level 49 and when I sleep (it protects me from the beams).

GV

Oh no! You are putting yourself at HIGH RISK! I was at FL430 earlier today and had my TinFoil hat securely in place (even used the chin strap)... If I am up high enough to emit ChemTrails, the TinFoil hat goes on! (Chin strap at FL410 and above, can't risk it falling off!)

 

[Silver Wings]

Summary

I think we can summarise now.

The objective was to give food for thought to a chap looking to buy a new aircraft for his flight dept in 2 years time. Requirement is for US to Hawaii and internal US, with at least 11 pax and a budget not over $25mil, with a new aircraft and full warranty preferred......

OK from that basis...... the answer is what ?

1) A $45mil+ G550/G-X

2) an 8 pax CL604/F2000Ex

3) A super fast pocket rocket Cit X and no space, and perhaps a swim at the end.

3) a Legacy that actually meets every desired criteria.

Sure they could spend the big bucks...... shave 45 minutes off the travel time and feel real clever business types. If all 11 have got golf bags and a few suitcases then they'll be needing a support aircraft chartered in due to baggage restrictions for all except the Legacy. Or they could bunk up and sit two per seat in a CL/Falcon 2000 just so their FBO knows they operate a 'real' business jet...

And that's the whole point. The guys in the pointy end get all de-focused when it comes to quoting numbers and esoteric aerodynamic effects.....who really cares......nobody who really understand what they are buying.

You really should take the time to move back and do a few flights in the back of the G550 (say a typical run) and then do the same flight in the back of a Legacy....is the experience really more than twice as good ? If you think yes....really honestly, then you should spend the big bucks......otherwise compromise. most of the guys in the back drive Mercs/BMW's anyway...they're good, but they certainly don't touch F1's for acceleration.....
It isn't always the ultimate performance that counts.

A point was made regarding operational flexibility, and yes, it is valid....but my goodness getting round at M0.8 and FL390 or perhaps FL410 eventually isn't so terrible....and sure on the odd flight the FL490/510 (which we all know you only rarely get up to) can smooth up a ride and avoid a storm or two...most of the time the big jets don't operate at max capability anyway....jsut think how many 2-3 hr sectors are flown and never climb above FL410 anyway...

There really is no point in quoting lots of detailed, but generalised statistics....it's up to the buyer to get some route studies of thier specific case done for a few of the aircraft potentially meeting the spec....Legacy / G350 I suppose.....and then to look at what practically is being offered at what price....

Goodnight

 

[banned username 2]

First post of this thread...

Which swept-wing Corporate Jet has the best Short Field performance in their size class?


As an example, the Legacy/Gulfstream/Hawker/Citation X/Lear/etc. are swept-wing and the Citation Excel/Ultra/Bravo/Westwind/etc. straight-wing (so the latter don't count).

As you may guess, I am a Legacy fan but wonder how it would compare to others in its class. I'm also curious to see how hot performers like the Lear series stack up to others of their size.

I suppose I could look it up somewhere, but any input is appreciated.

Thanks.

The objective was to give food for thought to a chap looking to buy a new aircraft for his flight dept in 2 years time. Requirement is for US to Hawaii and internal US, with at least 11 pax and a budget not over $25mil, with a new aircraft and full warranty preferred......

Who said anything about 11 passengers??? This thread is about short field performance of swept wing Corporate Jets...

 

[Silver Wings]

Too late and not enough jungle juice

Yeh.... answered another thread.........

It's too late and I'm too sober for this.

 

[banned username 2]

Yeh.... answered another thread.........

It's too late and I'm too sober for this.

LOL... Don't feel bad, I had to triple check which thread I was on to make sure I didn't do the same thing!

 

[GVFlyer]

Direct Operating Costs:


@ $3.00 gallon (the more gas goes up the more affordable the Legacy is.)


G-V $2,475/hour
Legacy $1,243/hour

I don't think FL510 and .85 Mach are worth 1,200+ bucks an hour, do you?

I don't know, the most valuable commodity most senior executives have is time...

I had to go to Conklin and DeDecker for this because Gulfstream does not consider the Legacy to be a business jet and therefore Sales Engineering has never done a Competitive Analysis on the Jungle Jet, but DOC for the Legacy is $1615 per hour for the 49,604 lb Legacy versus $1912 for the 91,000 lb G550. At it's operating deficiency, sorry efficiency, the Legacy would have a DOC of $2963 if it weighed as much as the Gulfstream.

I don't understand why you are trying to compare the two aircraft, I've had Luis Carlos Affonso tell me he couldn't afford to build an aircraft like the Gulfstream because his product is designed to offer the lowest possible seat mile cost, not the 20,000 hour airframe guarantee of the Gulfstream. It is really difficult to find an area in which to objectively compare the two products. Gulfstream has never had a structural failure, such failures are manifold for the Embraer.

It is equally hard to find a common ground upon which to compare the two jets:

G550 Normal Cruise Mach .85 (max M.885) - Legacy normal cruise Mach .78

G550 max altitude 51,000ft - Legacy max alt 39,000ft

G550 cabin alt @ 51000ft= 5960ft - Legacy cabin alt @ 39000ft = 8,000ft.

G550 range 6750nm - Legacy range 3220nm

G550 max cabin differential 10.48 psi - Legacy max cabin diff. 8.1 psi

G550 cabin dimensions: 50'.1"L X 6'2"H X 7'4"W - Legacy 43'L X5'10"H X 6'11"W

G550 automatic anti-ice/de-ice systems - Legacy no

G550 automatic fuel heating - Legacy no fuel heating system

G550 automatic autopilot descent mode for pressirization loss - Legacy no

G550 4 hydraulic systems with fully boosted controls - Legacy 2 hyd. sys. with unboosted elevator controls given to flutter and early mach effects.

G550 Hydraulic Hardover Protection System - Legacy no

G550 4 electrical systems - Legacy two 4 plexed generators

G550 maximum airport altitude 15,000ft. - Legacy max airport alt 8500 ft.

G550 MGTOW 91,000 lbs - Legacy MGTOW 49,604.

G550 Planeview 14.1 inch LCD displays, HUD, Forward Looking InfraRed Enhanced Vision - Legacy normal glass.

G550 Performance Computers, VNAV, Autothrottles, FMS that will fly all of the approaches on earth to include the course reversal without the pilot's assistance, EGPWS with Peaks Mode - Legacy nada

G550 certified for Terrain Critical High Altitude Special Approach and Departure Procedures - Legacy no

G550 automatic three zone temperature control - Legacy no

G550 automatic pressurization control (creates an idealized pressurization model from the FMS flight plan and flies it with no pilot input - not even a button push to turn it on) - Legacy no

The ability to go to 51,000 ft is an advantage not only for maximum range and the ability to get above headwinds, but it is also very usefull to top weather. Just last week on a flight from PHX to MDW I was able to get block FL490-510 to top thunderstorms while everyone else was getting hammered below me or having to divert hundreds of miles to avoid the weather.

In my view a more logical comparison would be between the Legacy and the G200. Both have similar price points and capabilities.

GV




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[GVFlyer]

...and sure on the odd flight the FL490/510 (which we all know you only rarely get up to) can smooth up a ride and avoid a storm or two...most of the time the big jets don't operate at max capability anyway....jsut think how many 2-3 hr sectors are flown and never climb above FL410 anyway...


Goodnight

You need to listen to your radios. Universal has instructions to file us at optimum altitudes which means normally 45,000 going East to take advantage of the winds and 47,000 going West. On a fllight like today from IAD to MSP (1:58) the flight plan called for FL490 to get above the winds. The only time we are stuck down at 41,000 as an initial altitude is when we are above 85,000 lbs - trips of 5725nm to 6750nm.

GV







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[empenage]

Salesperson

I hate sales people.

 

[hogdriver00]

Why do I continue to poke myself in the eye????

Captain Hogdriver,

The Global Excuse operates against the laws of nature and physics. The G550 is the only aircraft that displays pure aeronautical perfection.

GV

WHATEVER!

On a lighter note. How does an old guy like you keep up with all this technology? Are you a VOR to VOR guy?

 

[LegacyDriver]

No auto pressurization? When did this happen? You must be thinking of an EMB-120.

So, you're telling me that the extra $1,200/hour multiplied by five is worth it to save 45 minutes? NO EXECUTIVE is worth that!

I have never seen a structural failure in an EMB and I have been DH in the back with some pretty awful landings.

Why the hell do I want to lug around four hydraulic systems???????? I don't need that weight. I have two with mechanical reversion. I'll take the latter over the former.

Flutter? Mach effects? WTH do I care about that for? There is a thing called VMO/MMO. Stay at or near that number and it isn't an issue any way, and we all know this airplane will go well faster than 0.80 Mach safely.

Again, what is so great about 7000 NM range? NOBODY does that any way.

All the other stuff is simple to fix. VNAV, FMS, etc. requires a simple software change. FLIR and HUD can be added, but again, they are just nice toys and not really NECESSARY to perform the job.

No wonder your airplane weighs so much and burns so much gas. You have all these nifty toys to lug around and rarely, if ever, use...

Like the man said, all airplanes are compromises of one sort or another. I think the Legacy is a great airplane.

 

[empenage]

LegacyDriver

Good luck with GVFlyer!

You are off to a good start with your post! Keep the momentum building

 

[bigD]

I like these kinds of threads. I learn a bunch about the various airplanes you guys argue about.

And because of GVFlyer, I know more about the Gulfstream line of flying phalluses (phalli?) than I ever thought I would!

 

[GVFlyer]

Empennage - Big D

You folks never cut a guy a break!

E - my post to you was pure hyperbole.

D - we have more in common than you think, I mail order brisket, links and ribs from Cooper's in Llano, Republic of Texas.

GV

 

[GVFlyer]

So, you're telling me that the extra $1,200/hour multiplied by five is worth it to save 45 minutes? NO EXECUTIVE is worth that!

...No wonder your airplane weighs so much and burns so much gas. You have all these nifty toys to lug around and rarely, if ever, use...

The current Conklin and DeDecker shows the following Direct Operating Costs:

Gulfstream G550 - $1,912 / hr

Embraer Legacy - $1,615 / hr

GV

 

[Mudworm]

Wouldn't life be ever so much simpler if we all had the ability to choose the aircraft of our choice? Everyone would be happy!

Unfortunately for us it is the guy with the big bucks who makes this decision for us and we only can only influence the end result. That being said I am only too happy to have a job in this enjoyable line of work. Every now and then I even get to eat BBQ at my favorite BBQ joint, BS Muthers in Savannah (as long as no one sells my boss on a Legacy )!

Worm

 

[bigD]

D - we have more in common than you think, I mail order brisket, links and ribs from Cooper's in Llano, Republic of Texas.

GV

Heh heh! That's awesome. Can you get that GV of yours in and out of 4200'? You should make the trip to Llano someday.

 

[GVFlyer]

... Every now and then I even get to eat BBQ at my favorite BBQ joint, BS Muthers in Savannah (as long as no one sells my boss on a Legacy )!

Worm

LOL! BS Muthers on Augusta Road in Garden City? Never heard of it!

GV










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[Flat Spot]

The Avro RJ85 is available in corporate configuration! It would be great. Think about it, FL350, Mach .73, 4 engines and a 5500lb p/h burn at cruise. All of this with a mind blowing range of about 1200mls! On the upside short field performance is great, you also have the ability to fly a coupled 6 deg approach to an autoland.

 

[banned username 2]

You folks never cut a guy a break!

E - my post to you was pure hyperbole.

D - we have more in common than you think, I mail order brisket, links and ribs from Cooper's in Llano, Republic of Texas.

GV

F - What about "F"???? I feel soooo left out!