Short Field Performance - Best Swept-Wing Corp. Jet?

[GVFlyer]

I think this article indicate Petes boy's did do it.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1999_June_15/ai_54880812



And just so you know my comment was also an attempt at levity.

CG

Please note that all records accomplished by Bombardier in 1999 were done in uncompleted, green aircraft which are up to 6500lbs lighter than completed aircraft. The records done by Franklin Davis of AIG were done in an airplane with an interior and paint.


Here are the current records from a source somewhat more objective than Bombardier Marketing - The FAI which is the certifying organization for world records.


http://records.fai.org/general_aviation/reco_course.asp?id1=133&id3=4&id4=

GV

 

[Canucit]

I have not flown the citation X but I have heard that it goes into very short fields
but on the other hand i have heard that it does not have a very long range either

 

[Silver Wings]

Lcy

I'm still not convinced that the Legacy is a legit corporate aircraft, and haven't heard that it outperfoms anything. Not to knock it, but isn't it's only selling point in it's price range it's cabin volume?

I've flown on Legacy and it certainly is a 'legit' corporate aircraft....at least if the measure is delivering the boss and team from A to B in a quality environment at an acceptable price and in a reasonable time.
However, if the measure is something different then maybe you're right !!!!!!! ( I don't think so)

As for short field.....I've seen video of the Legacy doing steep approach into LCY in UK. That's a real special trick. F900 can do it as well..... but I don't think any of the other 'big boys' can. It's about as close to a carrier landing as you can do with these types and without the hook.
LCY is a pretty useful place to be able to go as it is right next door to the $$$ (or should that be €€€) of Europe...the UK banking center.

 

[GVFlyer]

This was a question about short field options. I mentioned that the GLEX had some interesting capabilities. Now it's a GLEX and GV pi$$ing contest again. Lighten up G. They are both good airplanes, neither is perfect.

Captain Hogdriver,

The Global Excuse operates against the laws of nature and physics. The G550 is the only aircraft that displays pure aeronautical perfection.

GV

 

[LegacyDriver]

Captain Hogdriver,

The Global Excuse operates against the laws of nature and physics. The G550 is the only aircraft that displays pure aeronautical perfection.

GV

*guffaw*

What's all the stuff on the wings then? I don't know of any biz jet (but one and even that one escapes me at the moment) that has a perfectly clean wing... Don't get me wrong, the GV is a good airplane, but I mean, come on.

 

[GVFlyer]

*guffaw*

What's all the stuff on the wings then? I don't know of any biz jet (but one and even that one escapes me at the moment) that has a perfectly clean wing... Don't get me wrong, the GV is a good airplane, but I mean, come on.

This is a not-so- private joke between Hog and myself, however:

I'm not sure what stuff your talking about, but the vortices generators by energizing the boundary layer airflow allow smaller ailerons which equate to less drag. The winglets reduce wingtip vortices(and therefore drag) allowing 7% greater range as well as increasing the effective wing span by one third the height of the winglet while also decreasing down-wash angle. This stuff is a design characteristic of the wing and not an aerodynamic patch as found on so many other airplanes.

The GV wing, as produced by Northrop Grumman in Dallas, is a beautiful thing, designed with CAD, CATEA and Computational Fluid Dynamics on the same computer that designed the Boeing 777. The NASA Langley wind tunnel was used for all prototyping and pre-production development. It's an all lifting device with no washed-out or washed-in regions, no stalled regions, even the radius going to the winglet is lifting. It has no canoes to hide flap gear and requires no leading edge devices to achieve exceptionally low Vref speeds. The winglet is set on such an angle as to provide a forward thrust vector - much like a sailboat tacking into the wind. Gulfstream has flown the GV from 72 knots to Mach 1.07 with no adverse effects. The wing is U-2 long and exceptionally wide producing 1136 square feet of wing supporting 90,500 pounds of jet for a wing loading of 79.66 pounds per square foot. By comparison the wing for the up to 100,000lb Global XRS is 1022 square feet for a wing loading of 97.85 pounds per square foot. This makes the Global another buffet limited airplane. I've done 45 degree bank turns in the GV/G550 at 51,000 feet then fully deployed the speedbrakes for descent. This would be a suicide attempt in the Global Express at the 48,700 foot maximum altitude that we were able to attain in that Bombardier product when we captured one for a closed loop handling qualities evaluation.

I don't believe you want me to focus on the Embraer Jet which was principally certified on our ramp by the FAA's Atlanta Aircraft Certification Office. I have not done so to this point because I don't consider it to be a serious corporate jet.

GV

 

[Silver Wings]

,I don't believe you want me to focus on the Embraer Jet which was principally certified on our ramp by the FAA's Atlanta Aircraft Certification Office. I have not done so to this point because I don't consider it to be a serious corporate jet.

GV

Go on, bust a gut and gives us the full story ! Just exactly why isn't a Legacy a serious corporate jet ? I have a sneaking suspision you haven't yet quite come to terms with the fact that a corporate jet isn't a toy for the flight crew...but lets see.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I, too, am curious to see why you think the Legacy is not a serious corporate jet.

This thing is a serious *AIRLINER* I think it would at *least* be an over-engineered business jet.

Airliners have to work and work all the time. Let's just run a G-String and a Legacy around the clock and see which one breaks first. The Legacy will cycle the G-V into the ground I bet.

*Imagines a caricature of a Gulfstream huffing and puffing (sucking wind) as the Legacy smiles and taxies by.*

I guess the BBJ isn't a "serious corporate jet" either since it was an airliner first... Hmph.

As for being a toy, I think it would be fun to dogfight a G-V with a Legacy.

 

[xrated]

I don't believe you want me to focus on the Embraer Jet which was principally certified on our ramp by the FAA's Atlanta Aircraft Certification Office. I have not done so to this point because I don't consider it to be a serious corporate jet.

GV

I tend to agree with GV. The Legacy is a commuter/regional aircraft built for the regionals by the regionals.....not to mention designed in a third world country. On a great day its performance is mediocre a best. It performs smilar to the Hawker though the Hawker has much better short field performance. I think a corporate jet, especially a newly designed corp jet, should perform leaps and bounds better than the airliners it shares the sky with. In the Legacy, you still look UP at 757's as they pass you......embarassing!

Primus 1000, come on, isn't that the same avionics in the Citation Ultra....fitting cause their performance is similar except the Ultra can make FL410. A serious corp jet of that size should have serious avionics. Geez, even a Dornier 328 turbo-prop has Primus 2000.

And to question how clean a Gulfstream wing is? Coming from a Legacy pilot. Come on!

 

[CatYaaak]

I've flown on Legacy and it certainly is a 'legit' corporate aircraft....at least if the measure is delivering the boss and team from A to B in a quality environment at an acceptable price and in a reasonable time.
However, if the measure is something different then maybe you're right !!!!!!! ( I don't think so)

As for short field.....I've seen video of the Legacy doing steep approach into LCY in UK. That's a real special trick. F900 can do it as well..... but I don't think any of the other 'big boys' can. It's about as close to a carrier landing as you can do with these types and without the hook.
LCY is a pretty useful place to be able to go as it is right next door to the $$$ (or should that be €€€) of Europe...the UK banking center.

Well, I was waiting for some actual performance numbers, because that's part of the "measure"...how it stacks up relative to others (what's it's range with NBAA IFR reserves?..at .80 mach?....at max cruise?... at max ZFW?..max payload with full fuel? Max altitude?...how soon can it get above the wx and airline traffic or are you stuck down at lower altitudes?.etc. etc.) The comfort factor being equal, better performance translates into greater flexiblity, which translates into time and money being saved...that's the measure, and why they buy the things in the first place.

Your vague qualifiers regarding the Legacy...."quality" (enviro), "acceptable" (price), "reasonable" (time) could be interpreted as "good enough mediocrity", and sounds more like a marketing plan for SWA, not the way to convince a corporate board how to spend 20 million + $$s. They are going to want the best aircraft for the mission and money. So I'll re-ask my original question...does the Legacy outperform anything....or is it all about cabin size for the money, and we're supposed to ignore performance and therefore flexiblity?

Anyone can gussy-up an airliner and call it a "corporate" aircraft. Why, 15 years ago I remember Bae trying to market their Jetstream 31 (or 41..whatever) as a corporate aircraft to compete with the King Air, and it went over like a lead balloon. Wasn't Fairchild or Dornier trying to do the same iwth the Envoy?...flop. You might get a niche buyer for these here and there (I know a guy flying a corporate 777 out of Beirut and plenty of others flying private, refurbished Boeings and Airbuses), but being "OK" really doesn't cut it.lk

London City Airport is a steep approach (I've got the t-shirt), and you should check your facts as to whether any of the other "big boys" can do it (they have). But if you want a steeper one, try the "RPG Arrival" into Baghdad.

I'm not knocking the airplane, but I've not seen any numbers yet either.

 

[xrated]

Airliners have to work and work all the time. Let's just run a G-String and a Legacy around the clock and see which one breaks first. The Legacy will cycle the G-V into the ground I bet.

*Imagines a caricature of a Gulfstream huffing and puffing (sucking wind) as the Legacy smiles and taxies by.*
.

You don't know much about Gulfstreams do you? I'd put a G up against an EMB any day. As far as the airliner deal, My best friend is a capt. on the 145/135 for Eagle, and boy does he have stories about how well the thing is built.

 

[GVFlyer]

Go on, bust a gut and gives us the full story ! Just exactly why isn't a Legacy a serious corporate jet ? I have a sneaking suspision you haven't yet quite come to terms with the fact that a corporate jet isn't a toy for the flight crew...but lets see.

OK, I don't know what you mean by your comments and you obviously don't understand Gulfstream's design philosophy, but are you really a flight test engineer? I have to know how to approach the Legacy's design deficiencies with you. What's the p sub q of dirt? Answer this and we'll talk structures and AD's, otherwise I'll address the 3100nm, 39,000 ft ceiling, .80 mach, no flow pack at max take-off power limitations of the Barbie Jet in depth.

http://www.safe-skies.com/EMB145_1.jpg









.

 

[Silver Wings]

I tend to agree with GV. The Legacy is a commuter/regional aircraft built for the regionals by the regionals.....not to mention designed in a third world country.

Dear oh dear ! I see you two really believe that the primary objective of a business jet is to excite the crew with new gadgets and the last 0.001% of performance. I bet you floor the pedal to race away from the lights every time as well......some sort of male ego thing.

Let me explain. A business jet is primarily a tool for doing business. good business is when you do a good job at a low cost and make a healthy profit. bad business is when you have hgh costs and high ego and low profit.

The Legacy may not be able to beat a GV in many areas of pure performance, but it can carry just as many people in pretty much the same comfort and with the same amenities to all the same places (and perhaps more)... OK it may have to re-fuel.... adding 60 mins on a 14hr flight time..... but hell it'll only save you $50,000 or more on the operating costs.

If the GV/GX are so great for the long range flights, then how come the fleet average cycle time is around 2hrs ? gee that doesn't seem to me like most of the time these birds are doing the job they were designed for...and that seems like a real stupid ego driven buying decision.

Way I see it...about 90% or more of the GV/GX flights can be done perfectly adequately by a Legacy....when (and only when) you need the ultra long range then charter in on e of these...or a really big jet and have some luxury...a B747 VIP or similar BBJ2.... You'll save a fortune doing this...

Nice little trick I don't see the GV/GX doing is being in two places at the same time on two different missions !?! Yhe well think about it ... for the price of one G550 sat on the deck, tanks dry you get two Legacy and full tanks in both for hundreds of hours for years.............

The third world comment...clearly shows you are mentally challenged and I don't wish to cause you more suffering by pointing out that you are talking rubbish......ignorance can be cured.......as long as the diagnosis is accepted....

 

[LegacyDriver]

The BARBIE JET is a Challenger.

As for the Legacy...

I've flown it for nearly four years now and have never had a single problem with it.

Your mileage may vary.

A Gulfstream wouldn't take the pounding an airliner takes. It isn't made to do that.

The Gulfstream is a fine airplane in its own right, there is no doubt about it. So is the Legacy.

FL410 is overrated. I'm not into melanoma and cosmic radiation myself.

And I've flown all the Citations except the X and the ERJ is more advanced in the cockpit than all of them. You can't just call something a "Primus 1000" and compare it to another "Primus 1000". The Ultra doesn't have five tubes. It has horrid ergonomics. They stuck a couple of CRTs into a 1970s design. It is still just plain awful to use.

The Primus 2000 is okay, but it doesn't do *that* much more than a 1000. I personally do not consider the 2000 worth the additional cost. VNAV? Big deal. Do it in your head. That's why they pay you the big bucks. (Yes, I have flown the Primus 2000 and I consider it a marginal improvement in some areas and slightly more annoying in others.)

No pack at max power? HUH? I think you are referring to the ancient A1 engines on the 145, not the A1E.

The Legacy is safe, reliable, redundant, affordable, and darned-near idiot proof. From a pilot's standpoint I consider it a pleasure to fly and it has that muscle car crouch that any red-blooded American should love, no matter where it's built.

 

[banned username 2]

FL410 is overrated. I'm not into melanoma and cosmic radiation myself.

That is what TinFoil hats are for! I never leave home without mine!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Direct Operating Costs:


@ $3.00 gallon (the more gas goes up the more affordable the Legacy is.)


G-V $2,475/hour
Legacy $1,243/hour

I don't think FL510 and .85 Mach are worth 1,200+ bucks an hour, do you?

 

[CatYaaak]

I, too, am curious to see why you think the Legacy is not a serious corporate jet.

This thing is a serious *AIRLINER* I think it would at *least* be an over-engineered business jet.

Airliners have to work and work all the time. Let's just run a G-String and a Legacy around the clock and see which one breaks first. The Legacy will cycle the G-V into the ground I bet.

*Imagines a caricature of a Gulfstream huffing and puffing (sucking wind) as the Legacy smiles and taxies by.*

This has GOT to be a joke, from the "serious airliner" (!!!!) bit to actually thinking an Eggshell-braer toy would see a Gulfstream at all, let alone "sucking wind"...the Gulfstream would be 10,000' higher and who-knows-how-many miles ahead...and increasing the distance...especially during those extra fuel stops the Jungle Jet will have to make.

Yeah, dispatch reliablity is so bad with Gulfstreams....that's why they sell like hotcakes to operators who fly all over the world, and into the remotest parts of it...and have for more than a few decades now. You know, the kind of ops where there are no domiciles with night-shift mx inspecting it every night, rotating aircraft through the fleet, and fixing squawks the long-gone-to-the-hotel airline pilots have written-up. You did notice that airliners "have to work all the time" though, which is good....but you obviously overlooked the fact that, because they do, airlines have to hire these guys called mx techs who have to work on airliners all the time to keep 'em that way. Check them out sometime...wave to them...they are the guys with those big red boxes containing wrenches and other tool-stuff.

But I'd strongly recommend avoiding any dogfights with Gulfstreams while you're flying your Legacy. Stay away from Globals, Falcons, Challengers too, and probably others I'm too lazy to look up. Avoid it because you'll be much, much lower, sentenced to snarking around in "airliner territory", a lot slower, and with less fuel....which adds up to you being meat.

 

[banned username 2]

I don't think FL510 and .85 Mach are worth 1,200+ bucks an hour, do you?

Obviously coming from someone who has never experienced the pride and joy of wearing a TinFoil hat!

(Levity folks, trying to inject some levity here... Is this thing on?!?!?!)

 

[LegacyDriver]

Coming from one who has done it, every airplane has its advantages in a dogfight... The victor is the one who learns to exploit his advantages and deny his enemy's.

The Legacy is quite easy to work on. Most anything that breaks at an outstation can be replaced by a Cessna mechanic in about five minutes. I doubt a Gulfstream could say the same.

Considering how rarely stuff breaks in the Embraer, however...it's not much of an issue.

I don't think a G-V could do STL-CID-STL nine times a day for very long...something far more demanding than LAX-JFK once a day.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Obviously coming from someone who has never experienced the pride and joy of wearing a TinFoil hat!

(Levity folks, trying to inject some levity here... Is this thing on?!?!?!)

Hey, I love ya' man!