Senority System

[Skyline]

I think the senority system should be done away with. Studies have shown that job statisfaction lies with many other factors besides just pay. QOL issues play a major roll as well. I think you could do it on a point system. As you gain time you will build points. You would build points for longevity as well. Everyone should be trained as a captain at their first recurrent date. Skill and ability would gain points as well. Then when it comes time to choose Bases, pay, Capt or FO it would be done on the point system. You could choose to work more days in a month but be at your top base choice. Perhaps you would aim for a quick left seat but take a pay hit. I think it would alow more freedom and people could get more of what they wanted instead of our current system on only the top getting most of the good stuff. I also think that Captains should fly as an FO for one bid a year.

Skyline

 

[Spooky 1]

Who will be the judge that "skill and ability"?

 

[rvsm410]

done all the time in other business groups

Who will be the judge that "skill and ability"?

Its doable, other professions set up peer groups to evaluate performane on a rating system of questions, which are submitted to a managment review team for input...your performance is based on standards and how you stack with the rest of your department...big shift of thinking though

 

[Skyline]

Skill and Ability

I suppose you could use test scores and check ride grades. The current system is gauged by the lowest common denominator. Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline

 

[Spooky 1]

I suppose you could use test scores and check ride grades. The current system is gauged by the lowest common denominator. Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline

I believe most if not all check rides (recurrent, initial, proficiency) are either pass or fail. Obviously the written test could be scored to grade value, but
the actual sim check would be very subjective at best. Do you have personnel experience as a check airman, TCE, APM? If so I am sure would agree this would be a difficult task at best.

I suspect that this is another one of your ideas that would mitigate your lack of progress in this chosen field? One of the most dangerous flaws that would come from this approach is competive flying. I can get into that airport, I can handle those winds, I can do it better than the next pilot, just watch. A sure recipe for disaster IMO.

 

[Skyline]

Testy

The current system is no better. Why the chief pilot of AA crashed. A system would have to be developed and I think it would work. I don't get your connection to completing the flights? I don't understand how my idea would change common sense and safety.

SkyLine

 

[Spooky 1]

The current system is no better. Why the chief pilot of AA crashed. A system would have to be developed and I think it would work. I don't get your connection to completing the flights? I don't understand how my idea would change common sense and safety.

SkyLine

I do not think you will find any reference or supporting data in the Little Rock accident that would somehow sustain this concept. What if your last check ride was a barely pass, what then? This is a poor idea and would only serve to further divide an already very divided pilot population. I guess if you feel that are so good that you naturally accelerate to the top of the list, then maybe there is some merit for you. I am just average so I kinda like the longevity concept.

"I don't understnd how my idea would change comon sense and safety." That is the problem here, you don't get it and probably never will.

 

[Skyline]

Hey

Hey man,


The only people who would have a problem with this are senior Captains. They would loose some of their gains. The current system has the little dictaters assuming that all is well while 2/3 of the company is not so happy. If the pay and days off are gone then we need to look at other ways to make the job less of a hardship.

Skyline

 

[Mr Wu]

The seniority system is the only way of being unbiased. Any time you bring a human into the evaluation process you will have to deal with their prejudices. Seniority if the only fair way to do it, although base seniority should have some weight.

 

[Spooky 1]

Hey man,


The only people who would have a problem with this are senior Captains. They would loose some of their gains. The current system has the little dictaters assuming that all is well while 2/3 of the company is not so happy. If the pay and days off are gone then we need to look at other ways to make the job less of a hardship.

Skyline

Let me get this straight. The top third of the seniority list is made up of little dictators??? You are a trouble soul and perhaps you should look somewhere else for a career that is more in tune with your frame of mind. BTW I am not on any seniority list at this time.

 

[Geronimo4497]

I suppose you could use test scores and check ride grades. The current system is gauged by the lowest common denominator. Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline

My *non-flame* observations:

I may not be a regional guy, but in reality, the corporate/frax world can be much worse some days. If it is getting old in "the tube" day after day, do all of us a favor, and look for another job! I'm not trying to bust your balls here, but you must be a real joy to fly with after being on the road for 3 or 4 days. Heck, you may be the best pilot out there, but skills alone never meant success in this business. The right demeanor has always played a HUGE role in job satisfaction and praise.
The whole airline industry is in turmoil right now. As much as I wish we could choose to only live and work during the good times, it is just not going to happen. Things will get better down the line. In current times, however, we all need to do our jobs and have some FUN outside of work.

 

[avbug]

Let me get this straight. The top third of the seniority list is made up of little dictators??? You are a trouble soul and perhaps you should look somewhere else for a career that is more in tune with your frame of mind. BTW I am not on any seniority list at this time.

Skyline is already looking elsewhere, and has decided he's a failure in this profession. He's posted at great length expounding on that, already.

His aim now is to stir up trouble and try, in some small way, to make everyone feel as he does.

I also think that Captains should fly as an FO for one bid a year.

Captains already have a lifetime of experience as F/O...that's how they got to be captain.

Skyline is upset because he feels the hill is too tall to climb. He wants someone to pull the hill down so he doesn't have to work so hard.

 

[Ralgha]

I agree that the senority system sucks. It was invented by someone who was too lazy to create a truely rewarding system, and it rewards the lazy, the stupid, and the unmotivated. I've flown with more than one captain who knew less about the airplane than I did, and this after I'd only been flying it for six months! This is not to say I think I should be captain. If I were asked today to upgrade, I would turn it down since I don't feel ready to be captain yet. I think a merit based system of advancement would reward those who work hard, rather than those who just sit in the seat like a bump on a log.

However, I don't think it should be implemented to affect all pilots, as it would be unfair to those who built their life around the antiquated seniority system. Current pilots should still operate under the lazy style, any new hires would operate under the revamped one, but never to gain a higher seniority than those who were already there. Through attrition, the entire pilot base would gradually change over to the better system.

Notice that my idea wouldn't benefit me unless I switched airlines, and I still wouldn't advance much faster under it since all the existing pilots woul be shoo ins.

 

[FlyChicaga]

If you think that going away from a seniority-based system will somehow help move those of us who take the job seriously up the ladder, you are sorely mistaken. Look at any other job out there. It's all who you know, or who you're on your knees for. All politics. At least here, with the seniority system, you don't have to kiss-ass to move up the line. You just need to serve your time. I like this better, because doing the job right is a sign of self-respect, not "I need to get mine."

It really sucks to see someone who doesn't care about the job, and just does enough to get by, move up while you still sit. But would you rather see the same person move up, in a non-seniority system, because they were drinking buddies at Riddle together? I saw that stuff happen at my parents jobs, and I'm glad I don't need to put up with it. Most people who want to do away with the seniority system have never worked under the alternative for any great period of time.

The problem is not the system: It's the industry. Good jobs are making way for crappy ones, and those who really had it made are being forced out to start over making $20,000 a year. If we would stick together, and work in union to help create decent paying jobs, and job security, we wouldn't be in this predicament. Any type of security and decent QOL for this career is a long time off, however. You can't achieve anything when you have people flocking to Go-Jets and Freedom-type airlines.

I really think that there is a lacking of the unity and maturity needed to tackle the problems surrounding our current system. So we are all stuck, like Skyline, unhappy and looking for other alternatives than fixing the big problem: Solidifying this career in terms of pay, benefits, and job security. This job could get much worse moving away from the seniority based system. Look how bad it is now, with the undercutting, backstabbing, and general "me me me" attitudes with this system. Imagine if we didn't have it!

 

[Sam Snead]

I'm heavily in favor of seeing the seniority framework radically changed.

But, in the same way the electoral college plagues the American voting process, seniority will continue to prevail.

First, those WITH seniority have the power to keep the system. Second, nobody will ever be able to agree on how a merit-based system should work.

*Sigh*