Seniority dispute ends at US Airways

[Cowboy75]

Simple, because theY don't REALLY represent us.....

It's better to watch the train wreck rather than riding along while it goes off the cliff.

 

[Cowboy75]

Posted by USAPAWATCH

This evening USAPA issued an update regarding their completely ineffective Leadership Walk held last week in Philadelphia. Despite bringing out the big guns from our soon to be national union (Teamsters) and some east AFA officers, few outsiders noticed the 75 or so pilots attending the event on their own dime.

When the former bargaining agent held a coast-to-coast picket during 2006, close to 1000 unified pilots sent a clear message to US Airways management. Over three years since the formation of USAPA, the best that could be mustered was a mere 75 pilots rounded up to the nearest 150 with significant flight pay loss.

USAPA is the only one to blame for our rock bottom wages and work rules. Mr. Cleary’s MO is all about delay.

The next time you have to decide whether to run a balance on your credit card or delay the payment on a loan, send an email to Mr. Cleary thanking him for all his hard work.

Some show of unity with 75 showing up? I'll bet the folks in Tempe are laughing all the way to the bank.​

Thanks USAPA.​

 

[MCDU]

USAIR is fine with separate ops. So are the majority of East pilots.

Lets just do the MDA thing.

Like MDA= AWA pilots are on the same certificate, have the same dispatchers and schedulers. Like MDA, the only thing you can not do is bid over to certain airplanes.

According to West posters that would be ok. Because that is how MDA was treated. According to West pilots MDA was not USAIR, just like AWA pilot group is not USAIR. If it would be, you could bid the 330 or the 767 or the 190. Since you can not bid these positions like the MDA pilots, you should not be considered USAIR pilots and if we merge we will count the WEST just like MDA. Non existent and not having a job. Fair? Right.

M

 

[get2flyin]

The USAIR is fine with separate ops. So are the majority of East pilots. Lets just do the MDA thing. Like MDA=Same certificate, Same dispatchers and schedulers. Like MDA, the only thing you can not do is bid over. According to West posters that would be ok. Because that is how MDA was treated. According to West pilots MDA was not USAIR, just like AWA pilot group is not USAIR. If it would be, you could bid the 330 or the 767 or the 190. Since you can not bid these positions like the MDA pilots, you should not be considered USAIR pilots and if we merge we will count the WEST just like MDA. Non existent. Fair? Right.

M

Marty, Marty, Marty...when are you going to accept the fact the OLD USAir is dead? It's GONE.

How about this...I would accept locking USAir East off from the rest of the system if all new hires are placed on the West list and all new aircraft are added into the West system. Wide bodies, narrow bodies, Super RJs, whatever. The East keeps the aircraft they have (*identified by serial number) and the West pilots will never fly them. As the East list gets smaller (due to your anticipated attrition) and the aircraft are retired, West "bases" will open in CLT and PHL and whatever else is added.

Your pals would get to keep exactly what they have right now, including work rules, benefits, contract, USAPA...everything. You'd get exactly what you want without any meddling from the West pilots. The West could dump the USAPA social club and get a real union.

How does that sound? I think it's reasonable.

 

[Cowboy75]

Marty, Marty, Marty...when are you going to accept the fact the OLD USAir is dead? It's GONE.

That's too funny, I was going to start my response with Marty x 3.
You beat me to it. :beer:

 

[Cowboy75]

USAIR is fine with separate ops. So are the majority of East pilots.

You should not be considered USAIR pilots and if we merge we will count the WEST just like MDA.

M

East pilots formed a seperate union. We get the picture.

That's OK with me. I was proud to fly for America West. Never considered UsAir. My jumpseat form always says HP.

 

[Turtle21]

Did you read Lance's latest missive?

Lance!?

You are referring to Lance for support?

You have absolutely no idea. Its not your fault, but you really have no clue.

 

[B-atch]

Marty, Marty, Marty...when are you going to accept the fact the OLD USAir is dead? It's GONE.

How about this...I would accept locking USAir East off from the rest of the system if all new hires are placed on the West list and all new aircraft are added into the West system. Wide bodies, narrow bodies, Super RJs, whatever. The East keeps the aircraft they have (*identified by serial number) and the West pilots will never fly them. As the East list gets smaller (due to your anticipated attrition) and the aircraft are retired, West "bases" will open in CLT and PHL and whatever else is added.

Your pals would get to keep exactly what they have right now, including work rules, benefits, contract, USAPA...everything. You'd get exactly what you want without any meddling from the West pilots. The West could dump the USAPA social club and get a real union.

How does that sound? I think it's reasonable.

Easy answer WEST SIDE MAKES NO MONEY!!! EAST side does!! West bases on the east? Simple economics...LOA 93 WE DO IT CHEAPER!! Not by choice, but by the short sightedness of the WEST. You encourage Douggie to keep US on the lower pay-scale.

Remember the APA sick-out a few years back, No, I do. Case in point. APA did not want AMR to run RENO-AIR as an alter-ego airline within the American system. APA demanded that the Reno pilots be immediately placed on the current PAY rates and work rules of their existing contract.

And yet you sit here and bash USAPA for its existence.. How about enlightening ALL of US why "The West" now operates 24% of east routes...
Oh wait I have the answer, USAPA won a minimum block hr. grievance for the West!! Although the Vegas domicile NO LONGER EXISTS, the WEST has evaded disastrous downsizing by taking EAST flying!!

And now YOU want EAST bases?....... What are YOU implying??

 

[B-atch]

How about this...I would accept locking USAir East off from the rest of the system if all new hires are placed on the West list and all new aircraft are added into the West system. Wide bodies, narrow bodies, Super RJs, whatever.
How does that sound? I think it's reasonable.

Wow talk about ENTILEMENT!!

Isn't this One of the many reasons to nullify the NIC award by ALPA merger policy?
"One pilot group CANNOT progress at the DETRIMENT of another"
Your groups mindset and actions speak louder than words!!
YOU would be willing to advance onto another pilots turf in order to benefit YOUR-SELF!!

Last time I checked........... Interpret MY silence.

 

[get2flyin]

Wow talk about ENTILEMENT!!

Isn't this One of the many reasons to nullify the NIC award by ALPA merger policy?
"One pilot group CANNOT progress at the DETRIMENT of another"
Your groups mindset and actions speak louder than words!!
YOU would be willing to advance onto another pilots turf in order to benefit YOUR-SELF!!

Last time I checked........... Interpret MY silence.

Riiiiiiight. Or everyone can follow the East entitlement plan of "return from furlough to the left seat in Phoenix, and then make pretty much ALL West pilots furlough fodder". THAT"mindset" is what got USAir pilots (*the NEW USAir, in case you forgot) to where they are now.

Nic award. No fences. The West pilots accept that far more commuting Easties will go West that the other way around. It is going to slow upgrades down in Phoenix and create openings in the Philly. I think you'd be surprised at how many West people won't find commuting there a viable choice, but why accept some bogus fence when Nic already settled the dispute?

 

[TWA Dude]

Wow talk about ENTILEMENT!!

All we're entitled to is the Nicolau list. And your wives and daughters. Just kidding about that last part. No I wasn't. Yeah I was. Oh, I don't know. Pass them over and then I'll decide. If they're pretty I make no promises.

 

[get2flyin]

Easy answer WEST SIDE MAKES NO MONEY!!! EAST side does!! West bases on the east? Simple economics...LOA 93 WE DO IT CHEAPER!! Not by choice, but by the short sightedness of the WEST. You encourage Douggie to keep US on the lower pay-scale.

Here we go again. Poor Easties...you insist on separate ops, then in the same breath you want West pay and work rules. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Why is this so hard to understand? Parker knows full well if you get pay parity, you'll NEVER show up at the bargaining table. Hell, you really haven't made an effort to bargain in good faith yet because USAPA knows full well a joint contract WILL include the Nic and the leadership will get lynched after running on a DOH promise. The East, West, and company all agreed to a process. The company and the West have stuck to it so far but the East keeps trying to take their dollies and go home.

Remember the APA sick-out a few years back, No, I do. Case in point. APA did not want AMR to run RENO-AIR as an alter-ego airline within the American system. APA demanded that the Reno pilots be immediately placed on the current PAY rates and work rules of their existing contract.

AA/RENO was apples to our oranges. APA demanded that Reno be placed at current works and pay because they had nothing to lose. Reno was gonna get stapled and everybody knew it. Are you suggesting that you'd be willing to be stapled on the bottom of the West list to get West pay and work rules? Of course not. Face it, USAPA lied to you. You didn't have the upper hand during the "merger". Unlike AA/Reno, USAPA can't pressure the company to do ANYTHING.

And yet you sit here and bash USAPA for its existence.. How about enlightening ALL of US why "The West" now operates 24% of east routes...
Oh wait I have the answer, USAPA won a minimum block hr. grievance for the West!! Although the Vegas domicile NO LONGER EXISTS, the WEST has evaded disastrous downsizing by taking EAST flying!!

And now YOU want EAST bases?....... What are YOU implying??

So, smart guy, if the West STOLE 24% of the East flying as you continually imply, why didn't the East have to furlough 24% of it's pilots? You're right, Vegas no longer exists as a crew base, but what about DCA and LGA? Gone. Pilot hubs on both sides were reduced and pilots were re-allocated. If the East didn't furlough 24% to compensate for all the "theft", where did everybody go? They took a bunch of West flying and started operating NEW flying! Wow, what a concept.

As far as WANTING East bases? I only offered a scenario that would allow the East to remain stand alone, as seems to be your wish. Eventually, your coveted attrition would leave the East bases understaffed and I suggested a method to keep that from happening.

I don't want the West pilots operating an East base, I want USAPA to quit stalling and get a damn contract, as is their obligation, while living up to their other obligations. Yeah, that's right, the Nic. West pilots have met their obligations (*admittedly, often begrudgingly, such as paying dues to a union that sues West pilots and fails to bargain in good faith). Start living up to East obligations anytime. Anytime would be great.

 

[doh]

All we're entitled to is the Nicolau list. And your wives and daughters. Just kidding about that last part. No I wasn't. Yeah I was. Oh, I don't know. Pass them over and then I'll decide. If they're pretty I make no promises.

I almost started to laugh, but then I realized how old the most junior east is. Even their daughters have to be in their forties! After I thought about it, I threw up in my mouth a little. uke:

 

[Metrojet]

Riiiiiiight. Or everyone can follow the East entitlement plan of "return from furlough to the left seat in Phoenix, and then make pretty much ALL West pilots furlough fodder". THAT"mindset" is what got USAir pilots (*the NEW USAir, in case you forgot) to where they are now.

Nic award. No fences. The West pilots accept that far more commuting Easties will go West that the other way around. It is going to slow upgrades down in Phoenix and create openings in the Philly. I think you'd be surprised at how many West people won't find commuting there a viable choice, but why accept some bogus fence when Nic already settled the dispute?

Entitlement from the East? How about the entitlement from the West? All the Westies think that we furloughed out of order - since if we used your methodology - then no pilots from the west would be on the street (with your second biggest crew base LAS shut down) and pilots on the east who never wanted to be based out west would have been on the street!

If thats not entitlement - please explain to me how I am wrong?, especially since we are on seperate contracts (or) not just for pay but reductions in flying.

At let me close by saying - I don't want anyone (west or east) to experience a furlough and m glad for the recalls that were announced today.

Metrojet

 

[B-atch]

As far as WANTING East bases? I only offered a scenario that would allow the East to remain stand alone, as seems to be your wish. Eventually, your coveted attrition would leave the East bases understaffed and I suggested a method to keep that from happening.
.

Sounds like rationalization to me...If given the opportunity, the West would move in to OUR bases without remorse..

It has looong been said ( I'm sorry only 1 O in long) that a fair airline merger is one in which BOTH SIDES are equally pissed. If the Nic award is not a windfall for the WEST, Then why defend it at ALL COST?

It seems to me that the economic HOLE that the AOL group has dug for itself is fairly substantial. Why defend the NIC? if not for its LONG TERM rewards...