Seniority by Date of Hire

[FDJ2]

In the new JPWA the 767 pays the same as the 757.....even NWA 757's, and is 12% below A330/7674 rates. But I guess arbitrators are more into cabin width measurements.

By mutual agreement, the new JPWA rates wont be a part of the discussion in arbitration. Pre JPWA pay rates are fair game however. Hint, pre JPWA DAL 767/757 pay rates = NWA A330 pay rates give or take a buck or two depending on where you sit. Pre merger DAL has 237 aircraft that pay as much or more than the A330, NWA has 62. Pre merger NWA has over 190 aircraft that pay less than the MD-88. But I guess arbitrators wont consider that.

 

[DTW320]

By mutual agreement, the new JPWA rates wont be a part of the discussion in arbitration. Pre JPWA pay rates are fair game however. Hint, pre JPWA DAL 767/757 pay rates = NWA A330 pay rates give or take a buck or two depending on where you sit. Pre merger DAL has 237 aircraft that pay as much or more than the A330, NWA has 62. Pre merger NWA has over 190 aircraft that pay less than the MD-88. But I guess arbitrators wont consider that.

Ahhh....got you out of "lurk" mode. The Framework agreement also says that it will be, in effect, limited arbitration, only the items that cannot be agreed to, and it will be a 3 person panel. I continue to find it amazing that, as confident as you guys are in the outcome of an arbitration, that your side shot down the Feb deal due to arbitration! Now you guys bitch about the woefully inadequate JPWA when you could have had the Feb deal by agreeing to arbitrate SLI.....exactly what you have areed to now. You guys love to say "that was then this is now".....what was it about your arbitration expectations "then" that are so different "now"? You guys talk now as if its a no-brainer that an arbitrated SLI will put DAL guys hired last month ahead of 747 Captains. You know....."it's coming"...."get ready to deal with it" etc....Gee, if its gonna be that great for you guys you really should have agreed to arbitrate last spring. Oh well, your $ loss...it's still a raise for NWA.

 

[michael707767]

Ahhh....got you out of "lurk" mode. The Framework agreement also says that it will be, in effect, limited arbitration, only the items that cannot be agreed to, and it will be a 3 person panel. .

Yeah, I like that one. Limited arbitration, only affecting items not agreed too. Items like, ah, the list?

This isn't a contract. It's not like there are multiple sections, with one or two remainin open. If someone has an idea how there can be "items" agreed to on a seniority list without having the entire list, I would like to hear it.

I also wanted to add I too, fear arbitration. But, with a three man panel bound to abide by ALPA policy, I fear it a whole lot less. A single arbitrator who can basically do what he/she wants makes me nervous.

 

[licorice]

Ahhh....got you out of "lurk" mode. The Framework agreement also says that it will be, in effect, limited arbitration, only the items that cannot be agreed to, and it will be a 3 person panel. Congratulations, you can read....but what has that got to do with the previous post? (237 DAL aircraft that pre-merger, paid the same or better than NWA 330's, while only 62 aircraft paid that at NWA)---That is significant, don't you think? 237 vs 62! Is there any possible way that you could see that that amazing statistic could be "factored in" to any reckonings about the seniority list? Or, how about this...Should that fact be completely disregarded as irrelevant to premerger positions held/career expectations? I continue to find it amazing that, as confident as you guys are in the outcome of an arbitration, that your side shot down the Feb deal due to arbitration! --This one is easy-- the previous negotiation was non-prejudicial, positions arrived at were nonbinding, and "off the record" thus, DAL started off with a compromise position,(as would be expected- that was the reason for making them nonprejudicial, DAL or NWA would not have to fear that any compromise positions put forward would later be used against them in an arbitration) - rumor was NWA did not start with a compromise...thus, DAL considered themselves at a disadvantage based on the last table positions.....thus DAL rejected the arbitration offer... Now you guys bitch about the woefully inadequate JPWA when you could have had the Feb deal by agreeing to arbitrate SLI.....exactly what you have areed to now. Well, not exactly the same...(see above) You guys love to say "that was then this is now".....what was it about your arbitration expectations "then" that are so different "now"? (see above)You guys talk now as if its a no-brainer that an arbitrated SLI will put DAL guys hired last month ahead of 747 Captains. ("slight" exaggeration) You know....."it's coming"...."get ready to deal with it" --That is coming from one poster (puff)--not from the DAL pilot group. ....Gee, if its gonna be that great for you guys you really should have agreed to arbitrate last spring. Oh well, your $ loss...it's still a raise for NWA.

Just curious, a previous poster from NWA stated that DOH would be a windfall for DAL, was that TIC or do you think that NWA actually deserves better than DOH?

 

[DTW320]

Ahhh....got you out of "lurk" mode. The Framework agreement also says that it will be, in effect, limited arbitration, only the items that cannot be agreed to, and it will be a 3 person panel. Congratulations, you can read....but what has that got to do with the previous post? (237 DAL aircraft that pre-merger, paid the same or better than NWA 330's, while only 62 aircraft paid that at NWA)---That is significant, don't you think? 237 vs 62! Is there any possible way that you could see that that amazing statistic could be "factored in" to any reckonings about the seniority list? Or, how about this...Should that fact be completely disregarded as irrelevant to premerger positions held/career expectations? Well licorice, that "fact" is not a "fact" at all.....like it or not, your 767's pay LESS THAN NWA 330's. Not the "same"....not "more"....Is there any possible way that you can see that "fantastic statistic" is neither fantastic nor an accurate statistic? I continue to find it amazing that, as confident as you guys are in the outcome of an arbitration, that your side shot down the Feb deal due to arbitration! --This one is easy-- the previous negotiation was non-prejudicial, positions arrived at were nonbinding, and "off the record" thus, DAL started off with a compromise position,(as would be expected- that was the reason for making them nonprejudicial, DAL or NWA would not have to fear that any compromise positions put forward would later be used against them in an arbitration)We'll see - rumor was NWA did not start with a compromiseoffering to arbitrate the SLI was not a compromise?...thus, DAL considered themselves at a disadvantage based on the last table positions.....thus DAL rejected the arbitration offer... Now you guys bitch about the woefully inadequate JPWA when you could have had the Feb deal by agreeing to arbitrate SLI.....exactly what you have areed to now. Well, not exactly the same...(see above) You guys love to say "that was then this is now".....what was it about your arbitration expectations "then" that are so different "now"? (see above)You guys talk now as if its a no-brainer that an arbitrated SLI will put DAL guys hired last month ahead of 747 Captains. ("slight" exaggeration) You know....."it's coming"...."get ready to deal with it" --That is coming from one poster (puff)--not from the DAL pilot group So Puff is an out-in-left-field looney who has an agenda?. ....Gee, if its gonna be that great for you guys you really should have agreed to arbitrate last spring. Oh well, your $ loss...it's still a raise for NWA.

Just curious, a previous poster from NWA stated that DOH would be a windfall for DAL, was that TIC or do you think that NWA actually deserves better than DOH?

You'd have to ask the "previous poster" now woudn't you? DOH is not on the table.

 

[FDJ2]

Ahhh....got you out of "lurk" mode. The Framework agreement also says that it will be, in effect, limited arbitration, only the items that cannot be agreed to, and it will be a 3 person panel.

Yeah, what's that got to do with the fact that DAL has 247 (I forgot to count our 777s last time) aircraft that pay A330 rates or better, compared to only 62 NWA aircraft?

I continue to find it amazing that, as confident as you guys are in the outcome of an arbitration, that your side shot down the Feb deal due to arbitration!

Arbitration wasn't part of the TFA in Feb. Arbitration is part of both the June TFA and ALPA merger policy. The best outcome however would be a negotiated list not an arbitrated list.

Now you guys bitch about the woefully inadequate JPWA when you could have had the Feb deal by agreeing to arbitrate SLI.....exactly what you have areed to now.

I'm not bitching about the JPWA. It is what it is, I wish we could get C2K+, but that's not realistic given todays airline economics. Maybe if we can create a viable global airline it might be someday.

You guys love to say "that was then this is now".....what was it about your arbitration expectations "then" that are so different "now"?

The June TFA has a mutually agreed upon arbitration process, with a date certain SLI, February's didn't.

You guys talk now as if its a no-brainer that an arbitrated SLI will put DAL guys hired last month ahead of 747 Captains.

I don't think anyone is saying that. Arbitration can be a big unknown, where both sides lose control of the end result. A negotiated list is a far better outcome.

You know....."it's coming"...."get ready to deal with it" etc....Gee, if its gonna be that great for you guys you really should have agreed to arbitrate last spring. Oh well, your $ loss...it's still a raise for NWA.

We'll see what happens. I'm sure at the end of the day we'll have a fair SLI that takes into account all the different equities brought to the merger. The fact that DAL has significantly more wide bodied aircraft, or that DAL has a larger wide bodied to narrow bodied fleet ratio, larger international category, significantly more 757s, or that NWA has 190 aircraft that pay less than the MD-88 will be considered by any panel of arbitrators. I believe that over the next 9 years NWA has more retirements than DAL, although many will be green book retirements off of narrow bodied aircraft, that will also be considered. I believe over the next 9 years NWA will have about 400 more retirements, however DALPA contractual staffing also brings about 400 more positions to NWA aircraft and bases and after 9-10 years there are more DAL retirements than NWA retirements. Plenty to consider.

 

[michael707767]

"Well licorice, that "fact" is not a "fact" at all.....like it or not, your 767's pay LESS THAN NWA 330's. Not the "same"....not "more"....Is there any possible way that you can see that "fantastic statistic" is neither fantastic nor an accurate statistic"

Ok. lets be totally accurate then. Delta has 247 aircraft that are within 2 dollars an hour of the 330, or higher. Which also means 247 aircraft that pay more than a NW 757, vs 62 NW aircraft that pay more than a NW 757.

But hey, if you think our 767s don't pay enough, just agree to be fenced off them.

 

[DTW320]

"Well licorice, that "fact" is not a "fact" at all.....like it or not, your 767's pay LESS THAN NWA 330's. Not the "same"....not "more"....Is there any possible way that you can see that "fantastic statistic" is neither fantastic nor an accurate statistic"

Ok. lets be totally accurate then. Delta has 247 aircraft that are within 2 dollars an hour of the 330, or higher. Which also means 247 aircraft that pay more than a NW 757, vs 62 NW aircraft that pay more than a NW 757.

But hey, if you think our 767s don't pay enough, just agree to be fenced off them.

Hey, THAT'S FINE WITH ME!!!! The vast majority of your widebodies are 767-300's that currently pay 10% more than NWA 757's and will pay the SAME as NWA 757's after DCC. The pay differential right now, pre DCC, between the bulk of your "widebody" fleet and our 757's is the SAME differential that exists between every similar aircraft in the 2 fleets.

Me? I'm PERFECTLY happy to go from my 320 to the 330(same rate as 76400) to the 747400(same rate as 777) or 787 for the rest of my career. That would be best of both worlds....I get DAL rates on NWA aircraft and preserve all my pre-merger expectations.

You guys are saying that SLI arbitration hinges on pre merger payrates. I simply pointed out that the 767 does not pay the same or more than the 330. It's a yes or no ? Same pay? More pay? If $2/hour is irrelevant then why not $10/hour....$20/hour?

 

[FDJ2]

Well licorice, that "fact" is not a "fact" at all.....like it or not, your 767's pay LESS THAN NWA 330's. Not the "same"....not "more.

That's not true, it depends on which seat you are in and how many years you have for longevity pay. I don't think the difference, except for 1st year pay, is ever more than $3. Sometimes it favors NWA, sometimes it favors DAL. If LOA 19 rates are brought in, the 767 definitely pays more. Remember, JPWA rates will not be a part of the SLI process, but LOA19 rates just might be, since they are a part of our pre merger contract not just our joint contract.

Perhaps a better way of putting it, since the DAL 737 pays more than the NWA 757, is to state that DAL has 320 aircraft that pay more than the NWA 757 and NWA has 260 aircraft that pay less than a DAL 737, or 190 aircraft that pay less than the smallest aircraft in the DAL fleet.

 

[FDJ2]

Hey, THAT'S FINE WITH ME!!!! The vast majority of your widebodies are 767-300's that currently pay 10% more than NWA 757's and will pay the SAME as NWA 757's after DCC.

JPWA rates are not relevant to the SLI process agreement.

If you want to go by pre JPWA pay rates, advantage DAL. All DAL 737s, 757s, 767s and 777s pay more than the NWA 757. DAL's 767-400 and 777 pay more than a NWA 747. DAL MD-88s pay more than NWA A320/319s and DC-9s

If you want to use size, advantage DAL. DAL has 111 Wide bodied aircraft, NWA has 62. DAL has 137 757s, NWA has 72. NWA has 61 DC-9s, which are smaller than the smallest airframe on the DAL certificate.

Even if you want to take credit for the size of the 747s and A330s over the 767s, it just leads to a sea of Delta pilots stacked on top of the NWA 757 category and ultimately a sea of NWA pilots stapled below the MD-88.

So which card do you want to play, size or pay?