Senate, House Agree to Sixfold Boost in Airline Pilots' Flight Experience

[JoeMerchant]

BoilerUP:

Thank you for reading my post and for understanding what I was trying to say – even if you don’t agree completely.







General Lee:

Congratulations for being your normal self - the self-centered snob who thinks that being employed by Delta Airlines somehow makes you God’s special gift to aviation; the guy who never misses a chance to say something derogatory about somebody else.

I have some recommendations for you General: 1) Once in a while try sticking to the subject matter instead of looking for ways to degrade those you consider to be inferior to you. It’s really tacky and adds little to the discourse. 2) Don’t talk about those things that you really know nothing about. If you’re just quiet most of the world won’t learn that you really have little of substance to say. 3) Stop trying to disparage regional pilots. Too many of them have as much or more to contribute than you do.

A) Yes, I retired from Comair some 10 years ago. B) No, I did not work there 30 years or anything close to that; I only worked there 12 years. C) Many of the finest airmen I’ve ever had the opportunity to meet were at Comair and many of them still are. D) I’m not ashamed of them or of having worked with them; I’m quite proud of it. So, your derogatory remarks about “lifers” and about CMR are of no avail whatever. Spare yourself the time and effort. E) While there I also met some people that were less than desirable just as I did in places where I worked before Comair. Nearly all of them left voluntarily for the majors or were run off by the good folks.

I know nothing about you other than what you write here and candidly I couldn’t care less. For all I know you’re a great pilot and will do well. On the other hand you could just as easily be a total dolt in the cockpit. Francis, I just don’t care.

However, based on what you write you come across to me as an arrogant, self-centered, know it all; a condition that often appears to reflect the culture of your airline. What’s more you seem to take pleasure in disparaging people that you consider to be less than you, many of whom are quite probably way above you. Get over yourself and make a contribution instead of just blowing your own horn louder and louder.

What’s more, most airline pilots that I have known from other airlines seem to share the general view that a great many Delta pilots are just like you: arrogant, self-centered blowhards. You’ve earned that reputation as a group, all over the industry and held it for years. .

I will qualify that by saying that I have indeed met some very fine people over the years who wore the Delta uniform. A lot of them were really Western pilots and a couple from old C & S, but mixed in there were also a few real Delta pilots. Most, like me, are now retired. What’s my point? We all have our share of people that just have to be rude to others. Unfortunately, your group’s culture seems to harbor more than its share. Perhaps that’s why you got to be the way you come across.

I have a suggestion: If every time you come in to a room full of ‘regional pilots” something smells – take a look at your own shoes.

I have no idea why you seem to be interested in whether or not I am what you call a “lifer”, or who I might have applied to work for at some point in time. It doesn’t seem to me that those things are of any interest to anyone, let alone relevant to the discussion. But, since you seem to want to know, I’ll tell you just enough to whet your appetite.
I was hired by Comair as a co-pilot in 1987. Before that year I didn’t even know they existed. I had already left my job as an ex-pat airline pilot and joined CMR because I missed wandering around in airplanes. I had already been an airline captain, in intercontinental service, for 17 years, in 4-engine equipment. I already had well over 20K hours in my logbook in a variety of transports and didn’t “need” to apply anywhere. I was also too old already. I just wanted to have some fun flying small airplanes again. I enjoyed every flying minute at CMR, but most of all I enjoyed and liked the fine pilots I met and worked with there. Hopefully I was able to help some of those I flew with to learn a few new things. They certainly were able to help me.

Now I don’t know what you were doing in the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s but my guess is you were still in diapers or if not, you didn’t even have a license when I got my first upgrade. Now that doesn’t mean that I’m smarter than you or that I know more than you do; I’m sure you’re very bright and that most, if not all of what you know now, you learned from seasoned captains, a good training department and applying yourself. If you don’t have a command as yet, hopefully you’ll get one soon and when you do, don’t let it go to your head like your job at Delta has. In the final analysis, you’re just another pilot – like the rest of us.

The point is simple: We all put our pants on one leg at a time. The most dangerous pilots are those who believe that they are too smart to learn something from a fellow airman, no matter how many “hours” he/she doesn’t have. Our clocks always start to run from zero hours, no matter where we happen to work and we all learn from others. My advice to you is simple: the first time you fly a turn and do not learn something that you didn’t know before; hang up the hat. It means you’re dangerous!

The bottom line is the same. First Officers don’t cause accidents. Captains do; especially the one’s that know too much.

BRAVO! Surplus and welcome back....We've missed you on FI. As usual, very well said....

 

[Motown]

So we should make an ACT score of 28 or SAT of 1200 as mins to hold an ATP. These are the kind of guys who become Doc's Engineers, etc. Then nothing but serious gray matter in the cockpit, most likely cause a real shortage that would have to drive up wages.

The wages & benefits will drive the caliber of applicant, not the other way around.

If the job paid $500K/yr, the career would be attracting hundreds of thousands of applicants, a percentage of whom would have 1400+ SAT scores (to return to your question). By rejecting 98% of the applicants, one could hire only those with 1400+ scores.

If the job paid $50K/yr, the career would be attracting significantly fewer applicants, and only the ocasional one would have 1400+ SAT scores. No longer would an employer have the luxury of rejecting 98% of the applicants, and therefore the vast majority of the new hires would not have 1400+ SAT scores.

To address your theory, though... yes, if an ACT score of 28 or SAT of 1200 were the mins to hold an ATP, wages would have to go up-- not because the career would suddenly be attracting doctors and engineers, but because applicants with those types of scores would rather become doctors and engineers unless the pilot profession could match their potential incomes in those other fields. (Think opportunity costs.) If an airline wanted to attract applicants with ATP's that required scores of 28 or 1200, they would have to match the applicant's opportunity costs (i.e., match the income & lifestyle available in competing career fields).

 

[surplus1]

Hello JM and pardon the rant. I know I shouldn't let it happen but sometimes that "Little Lord Fauntleroy" from ATL just sticks in my craw.

Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

 

[kf4amu]

So, which airline do you work for to attain 'financially secure with a bright career possible ahead of him'?

I work at ASA and am about to go back to work after being furloughed for 19 months and I am 'well-fed, rested, financially secure pilot with a bright career possible ahead of him'.

This is, at best, a really good part time job...like being a firefighter.

Wait are you comparing being an airline pilot to being a firefighter? There is no comparison in QOL and schedule...not to mention respect.

Pay may be slightly greater as an airline pilot, but definitely not starting out, and once you factor in the debt (both time and money) that it takes to create an airline career, the zero sum point is many years into the future.

I am an unpaid professional firefighter, and a paid professional pilot. I have first hand experience with both professions and there is no comparison.

So why did I choose flying as my paid profession? Same reason most of us did...I always wanted to be a pilot and I love flying. Unfortunately we are all too eager to suffer for our love, and management exploits it every chance they get (except Southwest).

 

[pilotyip]

So why did I choose flying as my paid profession? Same reason most of us did...I always wanted to be a pilot and I love flying. Unfortunately we are all too eager to suffer for our love, and management exploits it every chance they get (except Southwest).

Remember SWA is no longer the lost cost carrier. They recently had to purpose to their crews work rule changes to make them more productive, read more passengers moved for the same amount of money. Why would the best managed company have to do this? Management is only responding to the consumer. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. That is what we had under Regulation. BTW As flyin guy said, “Who wants to be first to sacrifice his job for the benefit of someone else?”

 

[johnpeace]

Wait are you comparing being an airline pilot to being a firefighter? There is no comparison in QOL and schedule...not to mention respect.

Only to say that being an airline pilot is a good part-time job...like being a firefighter is a good part-time job.

I guess there really is no comparison though: benefits, job security and schedule/QOL at the fire dept. are undoubtedly FAR better than at an airline...

My only point is that the airline job sucks a lot less when I look at it as a part-time, 'supplementary' job than as a 'all my eggs in this basket' job.

Then again, I haven't ever had a really busy airline schedule...I expect I have a whole new perspective waiting for me when I go back to work.

 

[kmox29]

I understand that higher pay may make things easier for the pilot or may make the applicant pool a little more "qualified", but pay as a function of your level of safety/professionalism/airmanship makes no sense.

You are all professional pilots (even if your company treats you like crap). Every time you fly, you should be performing to the highest level of safety. You should be flying like your family is in the back of your airplane...every leg...every day.

 

[surplus1]

Anyone who consciously performs below his/her maximum capability due to his/her pay is a fool. The pilot still rides in the front and will be the first to experience the consequences of unsatisfactory performance.

 

[kf4amu]

Only to say that being an airline pilot is a good part-time job...like being a firefighter is a good part-time job.

I guess there really is no comparison though: benefits, job security and schedule/QOL at the fire dept. are undoubtedly FAR better than at an airline...

My only point is that the airline job sucks a lot less when I look at it as a part-time, 'supplementary' job than as a 'all my eggs in this basket' job.

Then again, I haven't ever had a really busy airline schedule...I expect I have a whole new perspective waiting for me when I go back to work.

I see what you mean, but I definitely don't view an airline gig as a part time job. What airline doesn't keep its pilots busy?

 

[Kalifornia]

Remember SWA is no longer the lost cost carrier. They recently had to purpose to their crews work rule changes to make them more productive, read more passengers moved for the same amount of money. Why would the best managed company have to do this? Management is only responding to the consumer. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. That is what we had under Regulation. BTW As flyin guy said, “Who wants to be first to sacrifice his job for the benefit of someone else?”

In the words of Ronald Regan, "there you go again". You remember, maybe, you were in adult diapers back then. Ok enough with the insults, maybe...

Cookie cutter simplified economics is about is cold and undone as well cookie dough. I'd sure like you explain the opportunity costs, or in this case expenses, of the Colgan crash, and having many a pissed off and sad families demanding congress make a new law to ensure aviation safety let alone the obvious incalculable loss of life with such accident. Where does that fit into your market analysis? Sorry to say this, but something tells me you failed life economics if you're working into your 70s.