Selling rides...

[svcta]

Okay, so we've decided that it might be fun and profitable to sell a few rides from time to time in some of the airplanes that we've got sitting around the hangar. The 2 that we've got now(and any other that will come and go) are normal type-cert., so there's no experimental to worry about. Here's the question for you reg. experts: What are the legal ramifications of selling rides in airplanes? The insurance is sorted out so I mean what's involved from an FAR standpoint(if anything)?

Scenario in a nutshell:

ATP rated guys selling rides in vintage airplanes.

I'll dive in to the books when I get home from this trip, but all opinions are welcome. Thanks!

 

[nosehair]

I don't know where the reg is, but I've heard that "sight-seeing" flights must have the drug testing requiremets of 135/121 flights.

 

[A Squared]

I don't know where the reg is, but I've heard that "sight-seeing" flights must have the drug testing requiremets of 135/121 flights.

That's correct.

Also no more than 25 nm from departure airport and no landings anywhere other than departure airport.

I think you may have to have to have 100 hr. inspections also, but I'm not sure of that.

 

[svcta]

I could interpret out the 100hr. requirement. I'll have to look in to the drug testing. How would that be accomplished since everything I know about 121/135 drug testing is that it's supposed to be done at random? Seems like it would give someone a few weeks to get clean if they knew they were gonna have to go get tested.

 

[A Squared]

How would that be accomplished since everything I know about 121/135 drug testing is that it's supposed to be done at random? Seems like it would give someone a few weeks to get clean if they knew they were gonna have to go get tested.

As I understand it, a single operator signs up for a service that will schedule random drug tests for him/her. May be someone actually doing this can shed some light.

 

[navigator72]

I think it's 25 statute miles, unless it is a photo flight.

 

[A Squared]

I think it's 25 statute miles, unless it is a photo flight.

Yes, you're correct it is statute miles.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I could interpret out the 100hr. requirement.

I'm curious how you'd interpret a flight that people pay to go on as one that is not "carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire."

The consensus has it right

• 100 hour inspections 91.409(b)
• 25 statute mile limitation and no landings other than where you started 119.1(e)(2).
• drug/alcohol testing program 135.1(a)(5) and the rules referenced in that one

 

[svcta]

Perhaps, you're right. I believe that I was incorrectly remembering a caveat that flight schools use regarding 100 hour inspections, and renting, and checkrides, etc. I'm not much of a reg. quoting monkey, as you can clearly see.

Thanks so far, can anyone shed some light on the service for drug testing mentioned above?

 

[erj-145mech]

If you are already in an FAA approved screening program, you don't have to have a dedicated program for the sightseeing operation. Just as long as you are in a program, that meets the requirement.

 

[svcta]

I've never actually wanted to be until now. I'm doing all 91 stuff these days, so I'm unfortunately not in a program any longer.

 

[A Squared]

If you are already in an FAA approved screening program, you don't have to have a dedicated program for the sightseeing operation. Just as long as you are in a program, that meets the requirement.

You got a reference for that?

Not that I have any reason to believe it's not true, and it certainly does make sense and all, but It would be just like the FAA to say, "well that program doesn't count, you have to have a seperate drug screening program for your operation"

 

[erj-145mech]

135.251 does not specify that you must be on a specific screening program, just an approved program.

this is from 135.2
(5) Nonstop sightseeing flights for compensation or hire that begin and end at the same airport, and are conducted within a 25 statute mile radius of that airport; however, except for operations subject to SFAR 50–2, these operations, when conducted for compensation or hire, must comply only with §§135.249, 135.251, 135.253, 135.255, and 135.353.

When I did some moonlighting on a 135 aircraft, my 121 program was sufficient for the local FSDO.

 

[Flyboy6420]

New Rule

There is a new requirement for those who are operating under 119.1(e)(2), which is the reg regarding the within 25 statute mile sightseeing flight.

91.147 (the new reg) requires that after September 11, 2007 you receive a Letter of Authorization from the FSDO serving the area where the operation will take place. To get the LOA you have to spell out some the details of your operation, and you must register a Drug/Alcohol Testing program IAW 121 Appendix I and J. You must also comply with the requirements of Part 136 Subpart A and B.

Fun fact for 135 operators: If you have OpSpec A446 for sightseeing flights, you'll need to be reissued a new OpSpec A046 to match the new requirements.

--Flyboy

 

[midlifeflyer]

Perhaps, you're right. I believe that I was incorrectly remembering a caveat that flight schools use regarding 100 hour inspections, and renting, and checkrides, etc. I'm not much of a reg. quoting monkey, as you can clearly see.

Kind hard to interpret around something you haven't read, isn't it?

You're probably confusing what you've heard about rentals. Pure rentals don't require 100 inspections because the words of the reg only cover aircraft provided for paid flight instruction and aircraft that carry paying passengers.

 

[svcta]

Yes, it is. I've been preoccupied for all these years with flying related things other than flight instructing. It happens when you grow up.

I was wrong. Let's move on.

 

[A Squared]

Yes, it is. I've been preoccupied for all these years with flying related things other than flight instructing. It happens when you grow up.

I was wrong. Let's move on.

Well, I'm probably wasting my time here, but it won't be the first time I've tilted at windmills so here goes:

It seems as if you are somehow surprised and irritated that you're getting a little needling. Do you suppose it had to do with calling Midlife a "reg quoting monkey"? Really, think about it here, you posted a question asking about some regulatory issues, and after one of your misconceptions was corrected, rather mildly, you proceeded to insult the people who were helping you out with your question.

Frankly, that doesn't seem all that "grown up" to me.

 

[svcta]

You are also right.
What happened to being able to admit that you're wrong and moving on?

The only questions that remain involve a screening program. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on how to establish one.

 

[Flyboy6420]

Drug Screening

For more info about the requirements for operators:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/drug_alcohol/starting/

For a list of approved labs:
http://workplace.samhsa.gov/DrugTesting/Level_1_Pages/CertifiedLabs.aspx

-- Flyboy

 

[svcta]

Thanks, Flyboy!!