Scope, RJ's and unions

[~~~^~~~]

Re: argumants

Scope is for the most part a dead issue for this century.

That is a tremendously bold statement. If true, it takes us back to the first pages of Flying the Line and EL Cord. We must have scope. The only way we can achieve workable, legal, scope is for all Delta flying to be done by Delta pilots.

Fly Delta Jets and his buddies are going to have to stop whining that "it is too hard" and make this a suspension of service issue - I'd walk shoulder to shoulder with FDJ to fix this problem. But unless we form a line, management will continue to out flank each one of our groups one by one.

 

[jppt2000]

What a profound statement. Are you saying that you are actively looking to see that I get mine? How grown up of you.

Relax: I never said I wanted to see anybody furloughed.

Don't let facts get in the way of your opinion.
I see your strategy CSmith: Anyone who disagrees with you definately is not up to par with your advanced cognitive skills.
Not trying to flame anybody either.

Do you want to know what our breakeven loadfactor would be if the pilots flew for free? I guess the WSJ wouldn't report that.

CSmith where do YOU get your info.? ALPA?
Heck, when DALPA couldn't explain their refusal (PID) to support their regional brethren, they made up stuff. I hope the WSJ doesn't do that.

CSmith, look at other professions,
MD's have been under tremendous wage pressure in the last 5 years.
In fact, the majority of MD's (I'm paraphrasing the AMA's survey) would not recommend their kids go into the profession.
Why? More work, less pay. Management has found many of the procedures they once exclusively performed can easily be done by competent allied health providers.
Many Doc's found out about wipsawing.
Those MD's that partnered with their allied health colleages have done well.
How does that relate to major airline pilots? RJ's.

What I was trying to write was that the collective greed and indifference from the mainline pilots has been exploited by management.


Again, I never said I wanted to see anybody furloughed

 

[goldentrout]

Publishers

You say the industry is not headed towards my proposals...maybe that's because my proposals have not been proposed.

Management just might allow one list if a seniority based pay scale saved them millions on training each year, and if we stop harassing them about scope issues.

The way I see ALPA is exactly as Kit Darby said at an Air Inc. conference

"The union's job is to get as much as they can during the good times, and give back as little as possible during the bad times."

I'd rather see a union that strives to achieve a stable industry with job security and decent benefits for all...not just the top 50% of the seniority list."

However, as long as the mainline pilot attitude is "I will do everything in my power to keep them (wages and benefits) all the way they are. Not looking for sympathy. Not giving any either. I earned it, " that just ain't gonna happen until it's forced upon ALPA by outside forces.

 

[Publishers]

one list

There is no indication that management will ever agee to one list and a bunch of indications that the tendancy towards having dedicated regionals is over.

There is also not much on the horizon that says that stability will ever be achieved in a market place that swings like this one.

There are so many issues that are involved here in additon to labor.

Within three years , COEX and Pinnacle will lose their guaranteed flying and become truely separate. They will be out competing like anyone else.

Let me ask you this, when is Comair flying Comair flying and not Delta flying.

 

[goldentrout]

"Let me ask you this, when is Comair flying Comair flying and not Delta flying."

I don't understand your question.

As for the dedicated regional issue...the pilots have done it to themselves. Instead of compromising with management to preserve jobs at an overhead structure that can be profitable, the major pilot groups have pretty much just priced themselves out of a job.

If you were management , who would you deal with?

1. A group of pilots who continually want to work less, for more money, and threaten to strike every time there are contract negotiations, and who limit the profitability of the company with scope clauses.

or

2. A non-company pilot group who will do the same job for half the cost, like it, and don't even know what a scope clause is.

We've done it to ourselves.

The nice thing about Comair is that if we were ever spun off, we have a great structure already in place, and would probably give Delta a run for their money on many of their routes!

In my opinion, the reason management is shying away from one list and dedicated regionals is precisely because the company owned pilot groups are more of a burden than a help to the company. Why should they deal with all the crap we give them when they can get the job done by outsourcing?

We ought to be working issues like seniority based pay rates and other cost saving proposals which would give management an incentive to keep us around and allow us to become one list.

Otherwise, we'll just be outsourced to the lowest bidder.

 

[Publishers]

GoldenTrout

You seem to understand the problem.

Here was the original thought process:

To have dedicated feeders and maintain quality standards, we need to own our own regionals. The reason being that we need to guarantee them fixed income so we might as well own them and be paying ourselves for the non profitable feed system. That we we can also dicatate the quality and standards we want set.

While that was a great concept when things were always going up and markets were growing, the hazards only became apparent when scope and other issues started creating havoc. The Comair strike said to all of them, heh we are being held hostage by the guys we are paying to feed us. That and the rules that our pilots want kill our own flexibility to respond to market changes.

This is the very short version of the change in direction that recently occured and is being shaped now.

Whio is to say that maybe Delta's flying is really Comair's/

 

[michael707767]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Instead of

Well, that will be something to deal with if/when it happens. I don't see our MEC signing off on it--yes they will have to sign off on it. I would hope they learned their lesson in this area.

I will point out that any new airplane on the Delta property will likely have compensation set by an arbitraitor. Thanks to the loss of 3.B.6, our compensation lives will be in his hands. He does have some mandatory direction, however, and I have reasonable confidence in our built-in protections there.

Actuallly, I don't think the MEC will get to sign off on any subsidiary, as long as its Delta pilots under the current PWA. And as you have said, any new airplane will have the pay and work rules set by an arbitrator. Even with the guidance spelled out in the contract, I would not be surprised to see pay rates and work rules well below what we have on current aircraft.

 

[enigma]

[B
If you were management , who would you deal with?

1. A group of pilots who continually want to work less, for more money, and threaten to strike every time there are contract negotiations, and who limit the profitability of the company with scope clauses.

or

2. A non-company pilot group who will do the same job for half the cost, like it, and don't even know what a scope clause is.

We've done it to ourselves.

[/B]

The real issue here is one that asks; why has group two decided to act in this manner?

I propose that they do so largly in an effort to enable themselves individually, a future opportunity to join group one. The "I love flying so much" argument doesn't adequately explain why highly trained/skilled professionals are so willing to work for the wages/benefits that group two currently work for, not does it explain why they work under oppressive work rules. I guarantee you, that when the pot of gold at rainbows end truly disappears, so will the pool of pilots willing to work those entry level jobs with a poverty pay scale.

Managers who currently plan to take advantage of an overstocked pilot supply, must begin to plan now for how best to operate once that supply dries up. As someone else posted, the supply of MD's is starting to thin, and so will the supply of pilots once the top end wages disappear.

Managers has had access to a full pool of pilots for so long, that I don't really think that any manager really understands just how much his airline has been subsidized by the hopes and dreams of aspiring pilots.


regards,
8N

 

[Rvrrat]

Managers who currently plan to take advantage of an overstocked pilot supply, must begin to plan now for how best to operate once that supply dries up.

I would wager that the human race will be extinct before an "understock" condition occurs. Man had dreampt of flight for centuries before it became feasable. No where in history can I find a period of time when there were less people willling to fly than machines available, nor a time when there have been more jobs than applicants.

 

[goldentrout]

Enigma

I initially agreed with you assessment about the pilot pool drying up.

But after I thought about it, I tend to think there will always be pilots in group 2.

The analogy I use is one from the Air Force.

In the mid 90s, the AF Academy was actually having trouble filling its quota of sending people to pilot training, mainly becausue the commitment was raised to 10 years. However, instead of this having the desired effect of having AF management rethink the 10 year commitment, they just went out to ROTC and found more than enough people to fill the pilot training slots, without having to lower the commitment.

While the analogy may not exactly match the airline situation, the point is that I believe that as long as cockpits are available, people will leave their desk jobs for those opportunities. The lure of flying is strong. No facts here, just a sense.