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Scope relaxed for DCI?

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bailout said:
>>>

When flying in DCI colors, does CHQ ever use their own service personel? (gate, rampers, etc) Whose rates do you think get affected by paying those people?

Well, if Delta allowed us to use our own people, I bet we would. I am sure CHQ would love to hire all of our their people in MCO if given the option. CHQ also compensates other companies for use of their ground crews. Hell, Comair probably make money off of CHQ in many places.
 
Caveman said:
DALPA didn't want to fly and excluded from their scope. If you had kept the RJ on property at mainline in the first place the rates would probably be higher than they are now.

First DALPA disdainfully refuses to fly an airplane because it doesn't meet the criteria of a 'mainline' aircraft and then they piss and moan about us stealing their flying when we are successful. You had your chance and you took a pass. Deal with it.
You got an AMEN on that one!

I just re-read Chuck Giambusso's submission to ALPA killing the PID. What an arrogant fool that man was. Anyone know what happened to him? If junior Delta pilots read, and understood, what he did to them, Giambusso would have to hire Frank Lorenzo's security detail.

It amazes me that while Malone is much more polished and avoids offending people in the manner Giambusso did, the Delta MEC still just doesn't get it.

As I wrote years ago, the path chosen by the Delta MEC has effectively limited their options. The RJDC is correct on the law and apparently is beginning to have an effect on ALPA's behavior. One way or another the Connection pilots are going to achieve their proper representational status. Unlike any other pilot group, they have been steady and fought ALPA's representational blunders.

What is truly a shame for Delta and their junior pilots is that they have felt the hard edge of their union leadership's misguided policies. Even now they are focused on raising a cap by 15 hours a month instead of looking at the broader issue of why so much flying has left the Delta property and realizing that ALPA's apartied policies are not bringing it back.
 
Might be old thinking (Ok, I'm old!!) but why didn't JM ask that ALL DL flying be done by OUR three pilot groups? Say hasta la vista, baby, to all the others...
Seems all of the furloughed folks would be back, ALL of the MONEY would stay in DELTA'S checking account and we could ALL work on getting DL back to the top of the list.
Sigh, I guess I just digress......
 
NDM said:
FDJ2

While I agree with the spirit of your last post, I want to correct something. The Delta PWA restricts Wholly Owned Carriers of DCI to aircraft Certificated for 70 seats. However, outside Carriers of DCI are permitted to fly Aircraft Certificated for more than 70 seats for Delta under the PWA provided they are only configured for 70 seats.

Dan


Dan,
not quite true. The PWA prevents anyone from flying under the Delta code with an aircraft certificated larger than 70 seats, which is not changed in the TA. Our current PWA allows a code share partner to operate an aircraft certificated larger than 70 seats as long as it is configured with 70 seats. There is a change to this in the TA, but I don't have the language yet.

Bottom line though, even with the new TA, no one can operate an aircraft certificated for more than 70 seats under the Delta code.
Michael
 
~~~^~~~ said:
What is truly a shame for Delta and their junior pilots is that they have felt the hard edge of their union leadership's misguided policies. Even now they are focused on raising a cap by 15 hours a month instead of looking at the broader issue of why so much flying has left the Delta property and realizing that ALPA's apartied policies are not bringing it back.

I don't disagree with you here. But, given what the Delta MEC just agreed too, basically at gun point, do you think they had any leverage at all to try and bring this flying back? Do you think Delta would allow DAL/ASA/CMR to be merged into one carrier with no code sharing allowed? Realistically, it was not going to happen now, we have no leverage.
 
michael707767 said:
I don't disagree with you here. But, given what the Delta MEC just agreed too, basically at gun point, do you think they had any leverage at all to try and bring this flying back? Do you think Delta would allow DAL/ASA/CMR to be merged into one carrier with no code sharing allowed? Realistically, it was not going to happen now, we have no leverage.
Actually, you do have leverage. Just think of the leverage the ASA pilots have. We will either get a contract - or Delta will cease to exist. ( Not that I advocate such a hard line, it benefits all of us for Delta to thrive )

The RJDC tried to initiate tripartied negotiations ( as did the Connection MEC's at various points ). ASA is in full section 6 and Delta was negotiating with their pilots and opened the door to negotiations with Comair over the Request for Proposal jets. 45 growth airplanes, plus the turn over at DCI, meant there were jobs ( and there still are ) at our end of the spectrum.

That was the perfect opportunity.​

The Delta MEC did not want to participate and then reluctantly said after they negotiated an agreement with Delta, th would come to the ASA and Comair MEC's. Obviously coming to include us after negotiations meant it was the same old song and dance. Once the Delta MEC got what they wanted with us locked out, then we would get it stuffed down our throats - no thanks!

This could be fixed, just as ATR-DRVR suggests. DCI has ( somehow ) got financing for the airplanes. I'm sure something could be worked out to get Delta pilots in our airplanes without having to deal with first year issues. It might not be the left seat & top of the list, but it would be a nearly $40,000 a year job in nice equipment. But, it is necessary for ALPA to allow the ASA and Comair MEC's to be full participants in fair and structured negotiations to get this done.

You have something we want. We have something you want. We both need to end alter ego and end the war that harms both of our careers. Something can be worked out. You simply need the right leadership - and that is the difficult part - ALPA still sees this as "us" and "them."

~~~^~~~
 
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NDM said:
FDJ2

While I agree with the spirit of your last post, I want to correct something. The Delta PWA restricts Wholly Owned Carriers of DCI to aircraft Certificated for 70 seats. However, outside Carriers of DCI are permitted to fly Aircraft Certificated for more than 70 seats for Delta under the PWA provided they are only configured for 70 seats.
Dan
I believe you are mistaken. DAL may contract with outside carriers who operate jet aircraft certificated for 70+ seats so long as they are configured with 70 seats or less and do not fly DL code with those aircraft. Having said that, that is the current language, but I don't think the TA has changes in that language.
 
ATR-DRIVR said:
Might be old thinking (Ok, I'm old!!) but why didn't JM ask that ALL DL flying be done by OUR three pilot groups? Say hasta la vista, baby, to all the others...
Seems all of the furloughed folks would be back, ALL of the MONEY would stay in DELTA'S checking account and we could ALL work on getting DL back to the top of the list.
Sigh, I guess I just digress......
I don't know if it was JM, but ALPA did float such a proposal. Several serious flaws kept the plan from going forward. In my humble opinion the most serious flaw was that the pilots who's seniority was going to be effected most ( yours ) were excluded from the negotiations. ALPA already has the losing side of the RJDC litigation and having the Delta MEC steamroll the ASA and Comair pilots in the name of "brand scope" was just going to toss a couple fuel / air explosives on the fire that ALPA already can not control.

Of course the Delta MEC's negotiating priorities were:
(1) Jets for Jobs
(2) We get all the good seats
(3) Keep Delta seniority and longevity
(4) The Delta MEC retains control of where the airplanes go, who operates them, and how many there are....
..
...
....
.....
(1,107) Brand Scope
(1,108) Career progression for Connection pilots

...and of course, if they got the first three items on their wish list, they would have called it a success and went home because they don't have any obligation to represent DCI pilots.
 
FDJ2 said:
I believe you are mistaken. DAL may contract with outside carriers who operate jet aircraft certificated for 70+ seats so long as they are configured with 70 seats or less and do not fly DL code with those aircraft. Having said that, that is the current language, but I don't think the TA has changes in that language.

actually, there are a lot of changes to that language.
 
michael707767 said:
actually, there are a lot of changes to that language.
What has changed as it pertains to the size of aircraft that a DCI carrier can utilize when flying DL code? I haven't heard of any changes other than an increase in the number of 70 seaters, but than again I haven't had the opportunity to actually read the TA yet.
 
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~~~^~~~ said:
Actually, you do have leverage. Just think of the leverage the ASA pilots have. We will either get a contract - or Delta will cease to exist. ( Not that I advocate such a hard line, it benefits all of us for Delta to thrive )
Hmm, ya think so? Ya think maybeDelta would declare bankruptcy and get an immediate back to work order from the judge? Followed by an imposed contract? Remember, in BK, the judges only concern is whats best for the creditors and a shut down Delta is not best for the creditors. Unfortunately, you have no more leverage than we do.
 
Re-Re-posting of Previous Statement

Well, I'll post this again, in defense of our pilot group, as it again reiterates what I have to say.

--------------------

As it's been said on numerous occasions, I believe that the vast majority of the people at CHQ made the decision to accept our current contract under the auspices of being whipsawed by our own parent company's creation, Republic. It wasn't the fear that we'd "lose growth" as much as the fear that the creation of an alter-ego carrier with lower pay rates (not to start a flame war here, but PSA rates for those that are wondering) would provide our parent company the opportunity to take the flying that we already had away from us and give it to a lower cost carrier. Though none of us will ever know for certain, I think it's reasonable to believe that had we turned down the contract, the mediation board would not have allowed us to start the cooling off period for some time (as it was nearing the holiday season, and historically the mediation board does no release pilot groups to strike during this time), and given the opportunity to get Republic (in it's prior form) off the ground could have led to our battling and existing entity making lower wage rates than we do (and you do). Had our flying effectively been transferred to Republic at their wage rates, you'd have been pretty greatful to be battling our wage rates.

Don't think it could happen? Read up on your history of Frank and the Continental folks and how well striking worked for them. Just because you go on strike does not guarantee higher wage rates, or even a job at all. ComAir was positioned incredibly well when their strike went on, something we didn't share because of other airline contracts being signed at wage rates significantly lower than what we agreed to. Besides Mesa, TSA signed a contract extension of lower wage rates and horrible work rules, PSA agreed to horrible CRJ rates, Air Wisconsin and ACA agreed to concessionary rates (the latter of which was admittedly reversed by their cancellation of their United contract, but at the time we still had to bargain against it), Piedmont/Allegheny agreed to poor CRJ rates (which never materialized for them, though), and we still find ourselves ahead of Pinnacle, Mesaba, and CoEx's current contract. Meanwhile, our work rules significantly improved and I still believe are among the best in the industry. We were the first airline to sign a non-concessionary contract post 9/11, and so far for all the talk about sticking it to the man, I've yet to see anybody pony up and do better [editor's note: I don't know wha the status of CoEx's contract is, but since I wrote this their new TA came out, and it is admittedly higher than Chautauqua's]. I hope CoEx and ASA do, and if I actually see ComAir +X%, I will hands down congratulate you [editors note: CoEx's new payrates, if their TA passes, have not lived up to previous promises of being markedly higher than ComAir's. The people I have heard who support it have said that their W2 wages will be better, though, which may or may not be true, but in my opinion is still doesn't live up to the overwhelming promises that have previously been, quite frankly, shoved in my face]. We'll see. I love to be proven wrong.

As far as the hatred goes, I can't help how you feel. I'm very happy here, and though I might disagree with the way other pilot groups decide to deal with their own contract negotiations, I don't take it personally. And even if you want to give me the nth degree every time I see you at the airport, you're always welcome in my jumpseat unless you've crossed a picket line, and even then, it's business, not personal. It's funny, though, how all the claims that have been made to me since our contract was signed about how sorry I'll be haven't seemed to materialize for me. Only time will tell, but something tells me that won't change any time soon.

-------------------------

To add to that thread, I can say with a certain degree of authority that the pilot group has already been asked for concessions of varying sorts in order to produce better competition for new business, which has been blatantly rejected by our MEC. That quite obviously shoots down your first premise, of our taking concessions to breed new business. It does, however, support my theory that the pilot group, given the leverage of our scope, will stand the line much farther than you give us credit for. There's a difference between standing up for some idealistic target and standing up for what you believe is the best you can negotiate in the circumstances. I believe the first group could loosely be classified as lemmings. I'm just more pragmatic than that.

Now, in the context of everything I've said, it is entirely possible that we might secure new business. If that is the case, great for me. If it comes to ComAir, ASA, PSA, or whoever, I'm not going to go to sleep angry about it. Welcome to capitalism, folks. It is frustrating, though, to come through a place like this and hear about what a jerk I am because one of my coworkers didn't wear his hat to work, and then to go wandering around CVG and count ComAir crews without it. Each one of our airlines has some duds, and I apologize for ours (and I might even be one of them, depending on who you talk to). All I ask is for you to judge (and/or hate) people on an individual basis. If you run into a CHQ pilot who tells you he'll take any payrate for growth, by all means, kick him in the shins. I think, however, you'll be looking for a while before that happens.
 

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