Scope Defeating Freedom Airlines

[ddp]

What you guys that think Freedom Air is a good idea don't see is that the whipsaw has already begun with CCAir. We didn't vote out ALPA which lead to our currect situation which is we are closing the company on June 1st unless you take an completely new contract. And if you think JO offered anything fair and reasonable in it your crazy. It does have FO pay at $18.00. And an unrestricted jet rate which means we could fly the 777 for nothing. Mesa guys on the west coast need to look and see what is happening on the east coast cause it is not pretty. JO has already said Freedom Air is going to be non-union. So how are you going to protect your fellow pilots that you leave at Mesa? How are you going to guarntee them you don't take all of their planes and flying? The only guarntees come from everyone sticking together and realizing this is a management scheme to get what JO wants. He doesn't care about who flies his routes. He only cares that he pays you alot less than your worth. And if Freedom does get a good deal, why keep Mesa?

 

[BeechScrub]

UAL

Last time I checked we were still in a free market economy. That means that companies are still allowed to employ whomever they want, and outsource work to cut expenses if they so desire. That is the way companies survive in times of economic hardship and maximize profits in times of prosperity. That is the way America works! If you can't take it, maybe Cuba's economic system works better for you.

It is the unethical practices of ALPA that has caused Freedom to come to pass. The US scope clause does not allow Mesa to fly those jets, even if they are not operated for US. How do you solve the problem? Start a new company and let your pilots fly those jets for the new company. It takes a bad situation and makes it better for almost all involved. If a pilot doesn't like it, he doesn't have to go.

I'll let you know what he plans to pay us when I find out.

BeechScrub

 

[FlyinBrian]

supply and demand

Supply of Pilots: Big
Demand for Pilots: Moderate
Market Pilot Wage: Not so big.

Q: The market works for Peanut Butter, Jelly, and porn. Why shouldn't it work for labor?

A: Because everyone should get paid a big wage for getting into a field they've chosen to get into.

Here is something to consider: In a market economy, value is not determined by how much time or effort you put into something. Nor is it determined by how much responsibility you bear. It is determined by how many people need your service and how many people are willing to provide your service.

Unions have done great things. They have improved the safety and professionalism of the industry. But they are also preventing growth, keeping pilots out of work, and driving their own airlines out of business.

Mesa ALPA leadership is against Freedom Air because it dessimates their power. Why else would they be opposed to their pilots getting better pay and work rules, and not having their jobs artificially limited with scope? They get all this WITHOUT UNION REPRESENTATION! Besides that, they have the option to vote for unionization if they wish. Skywest's pilots aren't considered "scabs" and I don't beleive they have a union. I'm going to pay close attention to what goes on at Freedom. Under good management, Unions aren't necessary. I don't know if JO can provide that kind of management, but it will be interesting to watch...

 

[fatburger]

for caveman, beech, FlyinBrian and anyone else who cares to listen:

The fact is that everything is cyclical. What goes around comes around! Airline profits and airline losses come and go. Right now, you support Freedom airlines because you feel ALPA is restricting:
a) your upgrade
b) which base you get
c) whether you hold a block or sit reserve
d) quality of life in general.

Right now your happy with $80,000 a year (and who wouldn't be). But I gaurentee you that when the cycle turns and things are good and the company is making record profits and senior management is reaping the rewards you'll wish you had a bigger piece of that pie. The whole reason labor is able to keep managment in check is through unions. Alpa, APA, SWALPA, Fed Ex.........whatever you chose you can thank them for providing you your nice paycheck and vacation you get.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Hey Boeingman;

Tell the folks at COEX that the job they lost wasn't really theirs. Tell them it actually belonged to the guy they replaced. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. How long did it take for approx. 800, your number, to flow from COEX to Continental? Ya about what, 7 years? How long did it take for they to flow back?? About 7 months? Let me tell you what I think is most disgusting about this whole mess. If you are major airline pilot you think your job is worth a wage only limited by the amount of money located on planet earth, you think your job is worth keeping regional pilots on misers wages and treating them as if they are from some third world country, you think you deserve the job you just left when times are bad, you think that 10 days of work a 28 day bid period is just one or two too many. I could keep going but I hope you all get the point.

 

[Wiggums]

FlyinBrian – I think that the supply and demand for pilots is more complicated then jelly and porn. Pilot labor is also more complicated then other types of skilled labor. Unlike most consumer goods there are no ready substitutes to the pilots you already have working for you. If the cost of your current labor group is to high it’s very difficult, even in a non-union environment, to replace that group with another. Sure, there are plenty of starving CFIs that would jump at flying a jet, but they don’t have the correct experience. You’ll need captains with experience and types on your equipment, and airline management knows there isn’t a big enough supply of typed jet captians with experience ready to instantly replace their pilot labor in the event of a strike.

UALX727 – You’re not on furlough just because of cheap labor at other airlines. Even with cheap labor a small jet like a CRJ still costs more per seat to operate then a 737. However, if your only filling 40-50 seats then which one is going to make the company money? The reason for small jets is not because pilots are “whoring”, it’s because the market demands more point-to-point frequencies. Airlines are going to fill that demand with whatever equipment makes the most profit for who they are ultimately responsible for, the shareholders. I’d say that anyone that thinks that pilots can manipulate what aircraft a company flies with scope clauses and the like is holding on to false hope. If consumers demand small jet service then there is no way scope will work.

Also, UALX727, if pilots have to stay at a regional for a long time, I’ll bet that there wages will reach parity with mainline pay. If pilots are no longer able to use airlines operating small jets as stepping-stones to major airlines then they will take more time to fight for better pay at the regional level.

That said, I still don’t like idea of Freedom Airlines until some can explain how the pilot groups at Mesa are going to prevent whipsawing. I would certainly hope that ALPA does not give any trouble to pilots that go over to Freedom. However, I hope to pilots are sure they know what they are getting into. Past history shows that one company operating a bunch of different airlines or different pilot groups doesn’t work for pilot labor. Currently Delta is doing the same thing, and let’s not forget examples from the past like New York Air and American’s B-scales. What’s to stop Mesa from doing the same stuff that has happened before?

 

[Wiggums]

for caveman, beech, FlyinBrian and anyone else who cares to listen:

The fact is that everything is cyclical. What goes around comes around! Airline profits and airline losses come and go. Right now, you support Freedom airlines because you feel ALPA is restricting:
a) your upgrade
b) which base you get
c) whether you hold a block or sit reserve
d) quality of life in general.

I don't understand how profits coming back are going to help this situation. One ALPA pilot group (US Airways) has negotiated scope that has a negative impact on another pilot group (Mesa). If Airways starts making money again is ALPA suddenly going to cancel the scope restrictions on Mesa? This isn't going to happen.

I'm fine with the real reason for scope, protecting one pilot group’s flying from others, however, Airways scope isn't very effective. By preventing their regional partners from operating over a certain amount of small jets, even if they aren't on Airways codes creates a situation that is going to be challenged.

 

[Snakum]

I find myself coming back time and time again to try to get my brain around all the arguements relating to pilot pay, scope, and unions. I still can't help but feel that some of us expect airlines to disregard ECON 101 and provide the kind of jobs we expected regardless of the fiscal realities. I may be missing something, it wouldn't be the first time. But I just can't shake the feeling that some pilots feel an entitlement to a job with a major at the kind of (relative) salaries long-haul captains used to make in the glory days.

I, too, would love to be an international wide-body captain with the hat, white gloves, and a staggering paycheck/retirement package. That was my dream. However, what I'm picking up from almost everything I read is that RJs are the future of domestic flying, and that the pay and prestige of a pilot career is NEVER going to be what it was, as a result purely of market forces rather than evil intentions by airline management (though I'm sure some are as evil-intentioned as they come).

Still somewhat confused ....

Minh

 

[Boeingman]

Hey Boeingman;

Tell the folks at COEX that the job they lost wasn't really theirs. Tell them it actually belonged to the guy they replaced. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. How long did it take for approx. 800, your number, to flow from COEX to Continental? Ya about what, 7 years? How long did it take for they to flow back?? About 7 months? Let me tell you what I think is most disgusting about this whole mess. If you are major airline pilot you think your job is worth a wage only limited by the amount of money located on planet earth, you think your job is worth keeping regional pilots on misers wages and treating them as if they are from some third world country, you think you deserve the job you just left when times are bad, you think that 10 days of work a 28 day bid period is just one or two too many. I could keep going but I hope you all get the point.

The only point I get is you sound like a guy with a real chip on your shoulder about your job and it's future. Personally, I could care less what you or the regional pilots make. I don't care what pilots are paid anywhere except for CAL pilots.

Yap all you want, the flowthrough, good or bad it is part of the contract and being adhered to the letter. The only thing that I expect (not deserve) is the company honor that contract to the letter. Which they are doing.

Save the rest of your sophmoric diatribe for someone else.

 

[FlyinBrian]

I think that the supply and demand for pilots is more complicated then jelly and porn. Pilot labor is also more complicated then other types of skilled labor

We like to think that it's more complicated because it justifies an artificially high wage in our minds. The lack of a suitible alternate good for pilot labor changes the elasticity of demand, but does not release the good or service from the forces of supply and demand. The monopoly that the union holds on labor does that.

airline management knows there isn’t a big enough supply of typed jet captians with experience ready to instantly replace their pilot labor in the event of a strike.

The threat of a strike is precisely what gives unions their monopoly. Without it, there would be plentiful supply of pilots ready to take the jobs.

I'm not entirely against unions. I beleive that we should protect the integrity of our profession. But I hate to see unions that think the company is the enemy. It is almost laughable that some pilots really don't care about the company's bottom line. If a company doesn't generate revenue, there is nothing to pay the big salaries. Unions and management should work together, but they don't. They take an adversarial role and just feed each others' loathing of the other. MANAGEMENT IS NOT TOTALLY TO BLAME FOR THIS. At this time, when it's all an airline can do to stay in business, I see pilots actually saying

"They signed the contract, it's up to the coporate bean counters to find the money"

What the heck is that? That attitude will put airlines out of business, and then what is all your seniority worth? Mesa's Union wouldn't take a freaking 3 month 10% pay cut to prevent a furlough. Of course the union leadership wasn't in any danger of working at circle K when they made that decsion. You call that Unity? I don't. Ask their fuloughees if ALPA is responsible for their great pay and work rules. If Mesa's union exists for the benefit of the pilots, why are they afraid that their pilots are going to go somewhere to fly bigger planes for more money? Shouldn't they want that for their people?

Then there is scope. Let me try to define that: "A clause that prevents other airlines from doing the flying that they don't want to do." Again, the "screw profitablility" attitude. If an RJ is the most profitable piece of equipment, the company has to fly it in order to stay competitive. If mainline pilots aren't willing to fly it (and suffer the appropriate pay cut based on seat-miles) Then why can't somebody else? Kudos to the APA for proposing an integration, although they turned their noses up at the idea until their own pilots were on the street.

All I'm trying to do is point out that unions are not all they are cracked up to be. They have a labor monopoly, and that is dangerous.

(End of Rant. I guess I'm a little bitter because the union bickering is keeping me on the street.)

 

[fatburger]

Hey FlyinBrian,

You bring up some very good points in your last post. You also bring them from your perspective. From your profile your flying a Saab with 1300 hours. Your probably in your first "airline job" with a commuter. And as of right now, your enduring probably your first furlough. My point is that once you get a few more years in this industry I believe that you will have some differing opinions about your union, scope clauses and the true value of your experience. Just my opinion though.

fatburger.........................a furloughed brother

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Hey Boeingman;

Your only point from the previous post you left was not that I had a chip on my shoulder. It was that CAL pilots, due to their contract, deserved to flow back to COEX. You stated that when times are good COEX flowed to CAL and now due to the contract it is time to flow back. Your previous post seemed to indicate that you couldn't care less about the COEX folks that were displaced. I think that it proves my point entirely about what Major airline pilots think of those that earn less money and fly smaller equipment.

I enjoy my job very much and have no desire to fly for an airline of any size. I fly 600 hrs per year and am home every night. I can retire early have good bennies and have decided that watching my 2 small boys grow up is more important than the size of airplane I fly. If you think this is some kind of excuse for not doing what you are doing you are very wrong. By the way how many wives have you had?? I hope only 1 but given the nature of the airline business you are probably on 2 if not 3. How much time have you missed with your kids?? So far I have been there for EVERYTHING. Some day when you are gasping for your last breath that big shiney airplane won't be there to hold your hand.

No sit down and carefully think out a response. Come on you can do it :]

 

[fatburger]

Hey Earl,

Please don't speak for all of us major airline pilots. I have one question for you: Did you think that those furloughed at COEX knew about the flow through agreement? If they did, then they knew there was a chance that it could flow the other way too.

Your attitude will change, and I bet you'll take a job at a major in a heartbeat when things get good again. Kids get expensive as I am soon to find out!!

Fatburger............furloughed and on wife #1 with Kid #1 due in 7
days.

 

[Boeingman]

Hey Boeingman;

Your only point from the previous post you left was not that I had a chip on my shoulder. It was that CAL pilots, due to their contract, deserved to flow back to COEX. You stated that when times are good COEX flowed to CAL and now due to the contract it is time to flow back. Your previous post seemed to indicate that you couldn't care less about the COEX folks that were displaced. I think that it proves my point entirely about what Major airline pilots think of those that earn less money and fly smaller equipment.

I enjoy my job very much and have no desire to fly for an airline of any size. I fly 600 hrs per year and am home every night. I can retire early have good bennies and have decided that watching my 2 small boys grow up is more important than the size of airplane I fly. If you think this is some kind of excuse for not doing what you are doing you are very wrong. By the way how many wives have you had?? I hope only 1 but given the nature of the airline business you are probably on 2 if not 3. How much time have you missed with your kids?? So far I have been there for EVERYTHING. Some day when you are gasping for your last breath that big shiney airplane won't be there to hold your hand.

No sit down and carefully think out a response. Come on you can do it :]

You have not proved squat. I only care about the contract and it's proper enforcement. If that puts CO EX on the street per the FTA that is the breaks. If you could stop talking out of your ass for just a second you'd realize that some CAL guys are not eligible for the flowback either and are on the street. But you ran your mouth off without any knowledge of what the facts are and you got busted on it.

Yes they deserved to flow back to Express because of the FTA. You're also forgetting these CAL guys had their seniority dilluted by Express pilots coming over with them as new hires. It is a 2 way street Earl. There are ups and downs with every issue. During the hiring the common theme for people wanting to work for Express was the opportunity for a set flow to mainline. So I don't buy and don't try the song and dance they didn't know. The FTA was very clear.

I think it is comical you continue to ignore the importance of a collective bargaining agreement and it's proper application with the FTA at CAL. However, I must consider the source of someone who makes a statement of "not wanting to work for any airline of any size". You do not have a clue about contracts and CBA's that is quite clear.

Your continued whining about this perceived lack of respect about pilots who fly smaller equipment for lower pay must be from the root of some deep seated emotional hangup about major airline pilots. Those that are happy with your situation do not seem to have the need to belittle and berate pilots flying larger equipment for more money. Ususally, It is because they cannot get hired on with a major. Your attitude drips with a thinly veiled jealousy that becomes clearer with each word.


I don't really remember asking, nor could I care about you, your family your lifestyle etc. etc. Why you choose to bring it up and ask about mine I don't know. It must make you feel better to soothe that pain of not being able to cut it and improve your lifestyle, career or financial situation. But since you probed....


I can assure you my friend, financially I could buy and sell you in a heartbeat. My CAL salary is nothing compared to my other income from a business I own. Your schoolyard chiding of not flying my "shiny airplane" to me, is a joke. I am also still on my first wife.

I have spent a lot of time away from my family defending our country to give morons like you the ability to have, among other things, the freedom of speech. What effort, contribution or sacrifices have you given Earl? Or are you the type to just rely on others to protect your way of life? Given the above, I'll be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed to have some little piss ant pass judgement on my choice of career and use a lame value of staying away from my family. My family lives a very good life for my efforts.

Sure I don't see every little function at school, but I can tell you they will go to the best colleges and will not worry about finances through and for their education. Nor will I. Everything is a trade off Earl. Everything has a price.

As far as your airplane size mantra. I graduated #2 in my UPT class. I had a choice of airplanes and I passed on the C-5 for the tiny little F-4 Phantom. So you can take your size theory and stuff that as well. At CAL, I can hold 777 CA but I don't. I don't need the money nor the "size" fixation you have doesn't matter to me here. Strike 2 partner.

Your squirrel handle is quite appropriate Earl.

 

[publisher]

Points

Wile a number of good points have been made here are a few bottom liners:

1.. there will be hardly any regionals anymore that are not flying regional jets, therefore if mainline pilots take over, there are no regionals anymore.

2.. JO has a contract with USAirways that effects his ability to do business with other airlines and on his own. This is an impossible situation. America West and USAirways are the weakest major carriers. He is in the position of being handcuffed by carriers that may not even be here in several years.

3.. In effect, regional pilots are being screwed by all parties. They are being impacted by Agreements that did not contemplate the current situation. Their growth is being negatively effected by scope agreements that cater to major pilots to the negative of regional pilots.

4. So far, ALPA is doing a better job of helping Southwest and AirTran take over mainline markets than they could do on their own. In absense of a regional, they become the low cost provider.

5. There is a reason for regionals. It is not to employ pilots. It is to provide market establishment and maintenance at a low cost, let me repeat, at a low cost.

6. This flying does not belong to anyone. the consumer does not belong to anyone.

7. Management and the consumer have the right to spend their money the way they want. They both have the right to vote with their feet.

 

[Humty72]

??

By the way how many wives have you had?? I hope only 1 but given the nature of the airline business you are probably on 2 if not 3.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[nimtz]

You guys that see Freedom Air as a great opportunity have your heads where the sun don't shine. We will be f*cked as rj pilots if guys like Orenstein can hoar out his jets to supplement mainline flying. We are not talking about little jets here, we are talking about 84 seats! The Fokker 100 holds 88 in American's configuation. Here are the approx. salaries for the a 9 year capt and second year fo:
Capt: $158/hour
FO: $61/hour

Now call me crazy, but I bet American bought the airplane anticipating to make a profit in a good market. Know what do you suppose Orenstein is going to pay? You'll be lucky to see 100 bucks an hour for a captain. Now why should you fly make 58 bucks less to fly an airplane w/four less seats? With a non-union outfit like Freedom operating rj pilots will stand no chance of getting our wages inline with mainline eventhough the planes we fly are producing the same amount of revenue. In short you are the same thing as cheap immigrant labor!

Listen to the older guys on this board. Frank Lorenzo used this exact form of garbage when he started NY Air, which lead him down the road to ruining alot of lives. This whole deal may seem good in the short term, but you will be shooting yourselves in the foot in the long term.

 

[prodigal]

Brotherhood???

This industry sounds more like a pond full of piranas who have run out of fresh meat and have begun feeding on themselves.
Coming from the business world I simply cannot believe that there are educated adults amoung us here who just don't grasp the realities of a market economy. Earl, Brian and a couple of others have it right. THE MARKET WILL ULTIMATELY DETERMINE EVERYTHING, not any union, nor any contract. Face it, due to economic realities regionals are becoming something more than a dues-paying stepping stone to the majors. The old Soviet Union tried to manage their economy. Just doesn't work.
A million years ago dinosaurs ruled the food chain. Then drastic changes in the environment caused that to change. Major airlines may be the dinosaurs of our economy. I don't think they'll become extinct but must certainly learn to adapt to the new realities and become a different animal in order to survive. Survival of the fittest. Right now the regionals seem to be the best suited for flourishing. Artificial constraints will not in the long run defeat the market. JO and Freedom are proving that, and all the gnashing of the teeth of every mainline pilot and all the unions in the world cannot change that. Every other industry has had to adapt to new realities. Why should the airlines be any different? Is it right or wrong? Irrevelant. It's just reality.
Oh, and another immutable reality . . . human nature. We're all out for our own selfish interests. Screw the rest. . . I've got mine.
There's your brotherhood.

 

[skydiverdriver]

SOME people are looking out for only thier own interests, as that is human nature, but some others think of everyone. The best way to stop this C scale madness is to use the policy our union has in place to remedy the situation. It's called the merger and fragmentation policy. It was recently changed to say that "regionals" should not be counted as airlines, but luckily, our lawsuit was filed before that quick change was made. The rjdc is the only way out of this, and the only group fighting for your rights. No matter what you may hear from people who hate them, they are going to make things better for EVERY pilot.

 

[Braniff]

You guys are going to have to realize that the same things that attracted you to aviation are those same things that were won by organized labor within the industry.

If you for a moment think that Freedom Air is going to pay anywhere near scale or be anything more than flying bus drivers, you're kidding yourself.

They're going to fill the captain seats, out of seniority, with captains that don't have the ability or want to move on to another airline.

Then they're going to fill the FO seats with pay-for-training new pilots.

If they get captains that don't want to or don't have the ability to move on to other regionals and/or majors, they're paying far lower attrition costs.

It's all about the bottom line, baby!

When they hire pay-for-training FO's, they're virtually cost-free to bring them up to speed and they're going to pay them rock bottom wages because they CAN.

I've flown for a non-union carrier before and IT IS NOT GOOD. If the company busts the FAA's duty regulations, who are you going to call? The FAA? They really don't get involved with stuff like that.

If the company says, "Fly the (unairworthy) aircraft or get fired" who are you going to turn to? The FAA? Pshaw, right!

What happens if they decide to cut your pay or move your domicile over night and require you to move ALL of your stuff to the new city on the drop of a hat?

These are all things that I saw when I flew for a non-union regional. It's NOT pretty.

Frank Lorenzo, welcome back.

Braniff