Scope Defeating Freedom Airlines

[UALX727]

Beech,

I am calling any pilot a whore that would go work for Freedom AT THE EXPENSE of a Mesa pilot's job. I'm talking about someone not on the Mesa list at all. Kind of like a fleet-qualified scab that United brought in to fly in 1985, willing to do the flying at a lower rate at the expense of the United pilot group.

Maybe I'm off here, but isn't that Mesa's flying??? Seems like it's got Mesa's C.E.O., is the same type of flying that Mesa does, etc.

You are right, I probably should know more about the situation than I do. I can just see through this kind of sham, that's all. Throw "carrot-jets" in front of the pilot groups nose, tell them they can fly them, in return for concession X or concession Y. They did the same thing to us at the regional I was at a few years back. They union caved in to get the flying, next thing we knew we had F.O.'s on RJ-85 "smurf-jets" making 18 bucks an hour. 18 bucks an hour, no kidding.

 

[RJFlyer]

UALX727:

nice threatening statement..... "I'm going to give our people the opportunity to fly these airplanes. If they don't want to, I'll have to hire someone else."

How is that a threatening statement? It seems pretty straighforward and logical to me. The Mesa guys get first crack at the jobs. If enough don't want to make the change, they'll need to get the pilots from somewhere else. Either way, more pilot jobs are created, and that's a good thing, right?

Obviously, this C.E.O. thinks the Mesa guys make too much, or else why would he make a statement like that??? He knows that the Mesa pilots would love to do that flying and he's using this alter-ego startup to threaten them.

First, he said this: "The pilots are going to be stunned by what I offer." Oh yeah, sounds terrible. If 'the Mesa pilots would love to do that flying,' they can. They go to work for Freedom.

If this new airline does start-up, I would look at it as taking away flying from Mesa, and in my own opinion I would equate these Freedom pilots to dimestreet whores.

How is it taking flying away from Mesa? The airline is being started because Mesa can't expand and create that flying, because the USAir MEC is doing a great job of taking that flying (by not allowing anyone to do it). So who are the the dimestreet whores, then?

 

[Tref]

Here's a little clue in to some of you out there. The ONLY reason that being an airline pilot is a financially rewarding career is because of the strength of pilot unions.

Ever hear of New York Air? Ever hear of Frank Lorenzo? I hope so 'cause otherwise... here it comes again!

 

[publisher]

ok

Last time I looked, this is a free country and a person can start anything they want to with their money.

The sad fact is that all these forced agreements trying to cover all things across companies eventually fail. They fail because if JO's carriers become out of whack on a cost basis, someone else will start something and take the buisiness.

These agreements do not operate in a vacumn. When an outside event impacts things like the 11th, these agreements tend to harm more than help.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

I just love this argument. It is a like a dog chasing its tail. Thanks to UAL727, reading a "unionist" defend the most blood sucking union in modern history is a hoot.

From what I can gather Johnny O. is not doing this to stick it to the pilot union for negotiations. This is a move about financial viability of an airline. Mesa is talking about hiring 500 or so pilots due to this move so if you are on the bubble after Sept. 11 your job just became a bit more secure. If you are currently one of the 200 or so that are still on furlough, you now have your job back, a furlough I might add due to ALPA not accepting a pay reduction to ensure their pilots retained their jobs. If you are a consumer looking for alternative airlines to serve your community you will get that soon. The only loss is the power of ALPA to drive airlines into financial ruin and then blame it on management.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Just one more thing. Not to make this personal, but what is with the "whore" metaphor buing used by UAL727? A buddy of mine has been with Mesa for 7 years, a RJ capt., oodles of time, 3 type ratings and he is excited for Freedom airlines. Is he a "whore"?
What about the Continental pilots that took flying jobs from the COEX guys and put the COEX guys out on the street? Sounds pretty sleezy to me.

 

[Boeingman]

What about the Continental pilots that took flying jobs from the COEX guys and put the COEX guys out on the street? Sounds pretty sleezy to me.

The CAL pilots who flowed back to Express were allowed as part of a contractual agreement. During the good economic times, it allowed about 800 or so Express pilots to flow up to CAL. Many of the flowbacks were ex Express pilots. There was no complaining by Express pilots who got mainline jobs during the hiring boom.

When anyone hired on with Express, both provisions, good and bad were well known beforehand. Nothing sleazy about the enforcement of the flow through agreement.

Next time, have some facts before making wild accusations about "taking jobs". Those jobs were contractually entitled to those who flowed back. Period.

 

[Caveman]

Earl,

Good job. I couldn't have said it any better.

What mainline pilots don't understand is that we are not here to protect their jobs. We are here to improve our own quality of life. What they still don't get is that the days of regional t-props is over. We no longer have to make it to mainline to make a decent living. If some weird set of circumstances presents me with the opportunity to take a job making $150K a year I'll probably go for it. Otherwise I'll take seniority, quality of life, state of the art equipment and my $80K a year and live happily ever after. If that isn't enough for some pilots, fine. More power to them, but it isn't my responsibility to look after their economically unsupportable jobs for them. If they can find some sucker willing to pay them all that dough, good for them. The fly in the ointment is that the number of companies willing to do that at a loss of billions of dollars annually is rapidly diminishing.

 

[Boeingman]

Ever hear of New York Air? Ever hear of Frank Lorenzo? I hope so 'cause otherwise... here it comes again!

No kidding.

Some of these guys have stars in their eyes. Like the original NYA Franksuckers when Lorenzo stole the TI airplanes for his scabple airline.

Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

 

[UALX727]

Bottom line is this, 10 years from now there will be a whole lot more regional flying expansion in this country than major flying expansion. The high paying major airline job will slowly fade away because pilots "whore" themselves out just to get the flying. I won't even try to sugarcoat it. Sorry if that word offends some people but that's the way I see it. Don't even get me started about "pay for training." Another classic example of management taking advantage because there are pilots out there that do this. Hell, there is even a thread on this board about a guy advertising his services for free!!!

A lot of guys won't have a shot at flying for a major because their "dream job" has now been outsourced to the lowest bidder. The majors will only hire for attrition, and maybe not even that.

Can't any of you guys see whats happening long-term to the industry??? It used to be that the major airline pilots complained about the regional guys taking their flying. Now I find it funny that some regional pilots are complaining that other regional airlines are taking "their" flying!!! See what we are talking about?? It will continue, guaranteed. Management will always farm the flying out to the cheapest labor if they can get away with it. Doesn't matter if you are a major pilot, a regional pilot, whatever.....if someone will fly for less than that is where management will push it.

Look at this situation here at Freedom....Yeah, I'm sure your C.E.O. will give you guys the bank to fly these airplanes at a non-union airline....and what size aircraft are we talking, 65 to 85 seats??? That used to be good money to fly jets that size....I would be curious to see what he plans on paying these pilots.

Right now the majors have lots of guys on furlough(myself included) while most regionals are hiring and acquiring more regional jets. Why is that?? 3 words- CHEAP LABOR COSTS!!

Have fun at the regionals, it will be a long stay. I'd rather be furloughed at a major right now than flying for a regional. At least I know EVENTUALLY I will get my job back. If you are a regional pilot with a desire to move on to the majors be ready to stay at your regional for a long time the way the industry is going.