• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Scope Defeating Freedom Airlines

Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Posts
24
Total Time
3800
Go Johnny O!!! It sounds like ALPA is going to get a spankin!!!!

But seriously, I know a few Mesa pilots and they are pretty excited for this Freedom Airlines to get going. It sounds like a pretty good deal for Mesa and its pilots.
 

Wiggums

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,040
Total Time
.
Maybe not...

Why are Mesa's pilot union leaders againist Freedom then?

Are Mesa pilots and Freedom pilots going to be on the same list?
 

skydiverdriver

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
869
Total Time
5000+
Does anyone see the irony in this? The airline with the most restrictive scope clause, (USAirways) is also in the worst shape of all of the airlines. I believe that there is a relationship there. The rjdc is the only body working to secure our rights, and it's obvious that every pilot should be helping out.
 

rjcap

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
715
Total Time
zip
This doesn't surprise me in the least. It was only a matter of time till some airline exec with an ounce of creativity was going to find a way to fly the 70 and 90 seat RJ's without some type of short sighted ALPA scope restriction blocking him.
 

BeechScrub

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2002
Posts
107
Total Time
Enough
ALPA has no right to complain about Freedom. It is the leadership of ALPA that caused Freedom Airlines to have a purpose for being. Jonathan is doing what he has to do to ensure that Mesa expands and the flying is protected for Mesa pilots. He has been trying to work it out with union leadership from USAirways, America West, and Mesa since the end of last summer so these planes could stay with Mesa, but no one would budge. Now Jonathan has no time to argue because he must start training soon since Freedom will start in July.

It's going to be a great deal for Mesa pilots; I am excited about it. They are going to give everyone on Mesa's seniority list the opportunity to fly for Freedom, in seniority order. The seniority lists will be separate. Freedom will start as an operating division of Mesa, but will be spun off as an IPO soon after its start-up.

BeechScrub
 

fatburger

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2002
Posts
101
Total Time
>6000
I have a question for MESA pilots? Is your mec on board with the alter-ego freedom airlines?
And if they are not, would pilots who leave ALPA to go with freedom airlines be considered scab pilots? I'm also curious if there are any MESA pilots who have considered any future ramifications with trying to gain employment with a major airline after freedom?

thanks for your time.................furloughed fatburger:cool:
 

UALX727

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
234
Total Time
12,000
Just another way to get concessions from Mesa pilots.....nice threatening statement.....

"I'm going to give our people the opportunity to fly these airplanes. If they don't want to, I'll have to hire someone else."

So this guy is the C.E.O. of Mesa, he is in contract negotiations with the Mesa pilots (ALPA), and plans to start another carrier? Classic management whipsaw action........

I hope the Mesa pilot's stand their ground and don't settle for **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**tty wages. Can't you guys read between the lines here? Do any of you on this board think Mesa pays high wages to it's pilots??? I'm not certain what the Mesa pilots get paid, but I was a regional guy and I know we didn't make a whole lot of money. Obviously, this C.E.O. thinks the Mesa guys make too much, or else why would he make a statement like that??? He knows that the Mesa pilots would love to do that flying and he's using this alter-ego startup to threaten them.

If this new airline does start-up, I would look at it as taking away flying from Mesa, and in my own opinion I would equate these Freedom pilots to dimestreet whores.
 

BeechScrub

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2002
Posts
107
Total Time
Enough
The only way a pilot can be considered a scab is if he/she crosses the picket line and flies struck work. Mesa pilots are not on strike and the pilots who join Freedom would not be scabs. They would simply be taking advantage of a growth opportunity.

What future ramifications are you speaking of? If an airline were to not hire pilots from another particular airline because the pilots took the opportunity to fly larger equipment, make more money, and possibly improve their quality of life, then I'd say it is their loss.

As for the statements of UALX727, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I would say you should educate yourself on the situation at Mesa before you accuse our management of whipsawing or call our pilots whores.

BeechScrub
 

RJFlyer

Wastin' time...
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
211
Total Time
a few
This article is a direct result of scope gone bad. There are some very interesting parts to this article:

Officials of the Air Line Pilots Association representing Mesa pilots . . . want one collective bargaining agreement that covers all of Mesa's divisions - Mesa Airlines, Air Midwest, CCAIR - as well as the new airline. "We don't care how he sets up his corporate structure," said Andy Hughes, chairman of the union representing Mesa pilots. "We're only concerned that we have one contract for all our pilots."
Hmmm...ALPA wants one contract for all the divisions at Mesa. It's ok for Mesa, but not for Delta?
A clause in the contract between US Airways and its pilots restricts the size of the jets the airline's regional partners can operate, even if they fly them for other carriers. That means Mesa cannot fly the bigger jets for America West Express, Ornstein said.
This is completely asinine. Why should the US Air MEC have any control over what a non-owned company flies for another carrier? But scope is a good thing, right? It would seem the US Air MEC is intent on driving not only their own company out of business, but any others they can drag down with them.
Ornstein said Freedom is being started to operate 40 new 64- and 84-seat Canadair regional jets that Mesa already had agreed to acquire over the next few years to fly routes for Tempe-based America West Airlines. Mesa flies regional routes for the airline under the America West Express name.
So what if Delta buys AWA? We have even more carriers under DCI - and how does Freedom fit in with their 70- and 90-seat RJ's?

I can certainly see the logic in Ornstein's move. Mainline MEC tries to limit his ability to do business, he counters that by starting an airline free of their ridiculous scope provisions. I don't see this as an attempt to start an alter-ego, whipsaw airline - it wouldn't have been necessary without the USAir MEC's over-the-top scope.
 

UALX727

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
234
Total Time
12,000
Beech,

I am calling any pilot a whore that would go work for Freedom AT THE EXPENSE of a Mesa pilot's job. I'm talking about someone not on the Mesa list at all. Kind of like a fleet-qualified scab that United brought in to fly in 1985, willing to do the flying at a lower rate at the expense of the United pilot group.

Maybe I'm off here, but isn't that Mesa's flying??? Seems like it's got Mesa's C.E.O., is the same type of flying that Mesa does, etc.

You are right, I probably should know more about the situation than I do. I can just see through this kind of sham, that's all. Throw "carrot-jets" in front of the pilot groups nose, tell them they can fly them, in return for concession X or concession Y. They did the same thing to us at the regional I was at a few years back. They union caved in to get the flying, next thing we knew we had F.O.'s on RJ-85 "smurf-jets" making 18 bucks an hour. 18 bucks an hour, no kidding.
 

RJFlyer

Wastin' time...
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
211
Total Time
a few
UALX727:

nice threatening statement..... "I'm going to give our people the opportunity to fly these airplanes. If they don't want to, I'll have to hire someone else."
How is that a threatening statement? It seems pretty straighforward and logical to me. The Mesa guys get first crack at the jobs. If enough don't want to make the change, they'll need to get the pilots from somewhere else. Either way, more pilot jobs are created, and that's a good thing, right?
Obviously, this C.E.O. thinks the Mesa guys make too much, or else why would he make a statement like that??? He knows that the Mesa pilots would love to do that flying and he's using this alter-ego startup to threaten them.
First, he said this: "The pilots are going to be stunned by what I offer." Oh yeah, sounds terrible. If 'the Mesa pilots would love to do that flying,' they can. They go to work for Freedom.
If this new airline does start-up, I would look at it as taking away flying from Mesa, and in my own opinion I would equate these Freedom pilots to dimestreet whores.
How is it taking flying away from Mesa? The airline is being started because Mesa can't expand and create that flying, because the USAir MEC is doing a great job of taking that flying (by not allowing anyone to do it). So who are the the dimestreet whores, then?
 

Tref

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2002
Posts
228
Total Time
>7000
Here's a little clue in to some of you out there. The ONLY reason that being an airline pilot is a financially rewarding career is because of the strength of pilot unions.

Ever hear of New York Air? Ever hear of Frank Lorenzo? I hope so 'cause otherwise... here it comes again!
 

publisher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
592
Total Time
20,000
ok

Last time I looked, this is a free country and a person can start anything they want to with their money.

The sad fact is that all these forced agreements trying to cover all things across companies eventually fail. They fail because if JO's carriers become out of whack on a cost basis, someone else will start something and take the buisiness.

These agreements do not operate in a vacumn. When an outside event impacts things like the 11th, these agreements tend to harm more than help.
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Posts
24
Total Time
3800
I just love this argument. It is a like a dog chasing its tail. Thanks to UAL727, reading a "unionist" defend the most blood sucking union in modern history is a hoot.

From what I can gather Johnny O. is not doing this to stick it to the pilot union for negotiations. This is a move about financial viability of an airline. Mesa is talking about hiring 500 or so pilots due to this move so if you are on the bubble after Sept. 11 your job just became a bit more secure. If you are currently one of the 200 or so that are still on furlough, you now have your job back, a furlough I might add due to ALPA not accepting a pay reduction to ensure their pilots retained their jobs. If you are a consumer looking for alternative airlines to serve your community you will get that soon. The only loss is the power of ALPA to drive airlines into financial ruin and then blame it on management.
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Posts
24
Total Time
3800
Just one more thing. Not to make this personal, but what is with the "whore" metaphor buing used by UAL727? A buddy of mine has been with Mesa for 7 years, a RJ capt., oodles of time, 3 type ratings and he is excited for Freedom airlines. Is he a "whore"?
What about the Continental pilots that took flying jobs from the COEX guys and put the COEX guys out on the street? Sounds pretty sleezy to me.
 

Boeingman

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2001
Posts
1,319
Total Time
A lot
earlthesquirrel said:

What about the Continental pilots that took flying jobs from the COEX guys and put the COEX guys out on the street? Sounds pretty sleezy to me.

The CAL pilots who flowed back to Express were allowed as part of a contractual agreement. During the good economic times, it allowed about 800 or so Express pilots to flow up to CAL. Many of the flowbacks were ex Express pilots. There was no complaining by Express pilots who got mainline jobs during the hiring boom.

When anyone hired on with Express, both provisions, good and bad were well known beforehand. Nothing sleazy about the enforcement of the flow through agreement.

Next time, have some facts before making wild accusations about "taking jobs". Those jobs were contractually entitled to those who flowed back. Period.
 
Last edited:

Caveman

Grandpa
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
1,580
Total Time
11000+
Earl,

Good job. I couldn't have said it any better.

What mainline pilots don't understand is that we are not here to protect their jobs. We are here to improve our own quality of life. What they still don't get is that the days of regional t-props is over. We no longer have to make it to mainline to make a decent living. If some weird set of circumstances presents me with the opportunity to take a job making $150K a year I'll probably go for it. Otherwise I'll take seniority, quality of life, state of the art equipment and my $80K a year and live happily ever after. If that isn't enough for some pilots, fine. More power to them, but it isn't my responsibility to look after their economically unsupportable jobs for them. If they can find some sucker willing to pay them all that dough, good for them. The fly in the ointment is that the number of companies willing to do that at a loss of billions of dollars annually is rapidly diminishing.
 

Boeingman

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2001
Posts
1,319
Total Time
A lot
Tref said:


Ever hear of New York Air? Ever hear of Frank Lorenzo? I hope so 'cause otherwise... here it comes again!

No kidding.

Some of these guys have stars in their eyes. Like the original NYA Franksuckers when Lorenzo stole the TI airplanes for his scabple airline.

Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.
 

UALX727

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
234
Total Time
12,000
Bottom line is this, 10 years from now there will be a whole lot more regional flying expansion in this country than major flying expansion. The high paying major airline job will slowly fade away because pilots "whore" themselves out just to get the flying. I won't even try to sugarcoat it. Sorry if that word offends some people but that's the way I see it. Don't even get me started about "pay for training." Another classic example of management taking advantage because there are pilots out there that do this. Hell, there is even a thread on this board about a guy advertising his services for free!!!

A lot of guys won't have a shot at flying for a major because their "dream job" has now been outsourced to the lowest bidder. The majors will only hire for attrition, and maybe not even that.

Can't any of you guys see whats happening long-term to the industry??? It used to be that the major airline pilots complained about the regional guys taking their flying. Now I find it funny that some regional pilots are complaining that other regional airlines are taking "their" flying!!! See what we are talking about?? It will continue, guaranteed. Management will always farm the flying out to the cheapest labor if they can get away with it. Doesn't matter if you are a major pilot, a regional pilot, whatever.....if someone will fly for less than that is where management will push it.

Look at this situation here at Freedom....Yeah, I'm sure your C.E.O. will give you guys the bank to fly these airplanes at a non-union airline....and what size aircraft are we talking, 65 to 85 seats??? That used to be good money to fly jets that size....I would be curious to see what he plans on paying these pilots.

Right now the majors have lots of guys on furlough(myself included) while most regionals are hiring and acquiring more regional jets. Why is that?? 3 words- CHEAP LABOR COSTS!!

Have fun at the regionals, it will be a long stay. I'd rather be furloughed at a major right now than flying for a regional. At least I know EVENTUALLY I will get my job back. If you are a regional pilot with a desire to move on to the majors be ready to stay at your regional for a long time the way the industry is going.
 
Top