Saudi

[B-J-J Fighter]

DC10

Why make this a persoanl attack, I was just stating my opinion, and I stand by it. No need to make this personal, if I wanted it this to be personal I would just meet up with you and kick your a$$. Lets stick to issues and keep persoanl attacks out of this. You know what I said is right, thats what hurts so bad.

 

[DC10]

Oh Please - let's try to keep this at a level above the third grade.

Nothing personal - a little sense of humor can go a long way to understanding someone else's culture. Maybe you should try it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks, pal, but I have had far too much "culture" already.

I don't need anyone apologizing for me. I have been to the Middle East. I have seen how the people live. I have seen how the royal families squander the resources of the region, then blame the US and the Israelis for the impoverishment of their people. I have seen how they live, and how they treat one another. Life is cheap, tempers are hot, and religion is used as a conduit to preach hate.

Apologists like yourself have a long and horrible tradition of letting things get out of hand, until an all-out conflict is inevitable. We are trying to nip this in the bud. It is going to get worse before it gets better.

My advice to you is pull your head out of your tail with a great popping sound, get the flower-power sticker off of your mini-van and thank a soldier for cleaning up this mess for you, me and the rest of the world, the citizens of Iraq included.

Once they have been freed, and democracy is able to flourish, the rest of the Muslim countries will eventually follow (which is exactly what the Saudi royal family is afraid of).

I'm getting off my soapbox now.

 

[Vik]

This is getting out of hand kids.

I'm sorry those guys had people make fun of their religion/race/nationality/whatever.

The events of 9/11 doesn't give anyone the right to make fun of Arabs, Muslims, etc.

The bottom line is that the events of 9/11 have reduced the level of privacy for all of us. If that means non-citizens are kept on a leash, so be it. I don't want the events of 9/11 to repeat, EVER. I don't want a single person killed due to a hijacking or bombing.

Just look at what 9/11 has done to the entire U.S. economy. I would gladly give up some freedoms in exchange for security. I have nothing to hide.

People that are here on visa/green card should accept the fact that they are visitors here and are going to be watched closely. If someone is a visitor in my house, I don't let them roam around and do whatever they please.

Before anyone attacks me for not siding with expat and company, I am a naturalized citizen. That means I wasn't born here. I came here from another country and my parents worked hard to provide for me and contribute to this country.

I honestly don't believe some of those stories. If those things had happened, there are legal means of fighting back. Packing up your stuff and moving to another country is not the answer and I can't imagine an adult doing it. I can't imagine a football coach saying that either especially with a whole team as witnesses. If it was in private, that might be possible, but not with an entire team watching.

Anyhow, arguing like little kids isn't going to help and this thread will just get killed before anyone learns anything valuable.

 

[Expat]

B-J-J : You are entitled to your opinions. That is what part of being Americna is all about. I respectfully agrree to disagree with you. America is a free country and a great place to live. Wait till someone deprives you of your freedom.

Vik : Actually, the coach incident did happen. Complaints were filed, all the usual nonsense, and an apology was received.

I completely agree with in depth background checks of Green Card holders and Naturalised citizens before employment with an airline. Prudence demands this. However, I am NOT a naturalised citizen. I was born in L.A. , as was my father. My family have been Americans since 1915. If this means that I am a security risk, fine, background check me. But why not check the irishman who immigrated in 1950 with ties to the IRA? There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

In passing, indeed the majority of the hijackers were Saudi citizens. However, one must look at the fact that all of them were originally Hawdramati, an area in Yeman that the bin Laden family also originates from.

 

[Timebuilder]

It's true.

A democracy in Iraq scares the sand out of every dictator in the mideast. The entire region will fall like a house of cards when the citizens realize that they have been brainwashed into believing that Israel and the US are the boogeyman.

As far as drawing a line somwhere in terms of security scrutiny, I recall our failure to go after the FALN, a Puerto Rican extremist group who placed a bomb in New York. Because of NY politics, we decided to give these guys a pass back in the 70's. The IRA? They have fallen out of favor here in the past ten years. The FBI has probably found that list of Americans who send money to the IRA in a drawer somewhere. I wouldn't want to be on that list.

The attackers didn't care a whit for their fellow saudis who live in America. The fact that they would be scrutinized and picked on wasn't a concern. After all, they were over here consorting with the infidel and they deserved the same fate as the rest of us. Now all of us, including saudi Americans will pay a price for the actions of a few. We refused to secure our borders and control the flow of immigration to a manageable level, and we let these guys just walk right into our country in the name of freedom.

Yes Bob Dylan, the times, they are a-changin'.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

"Like you this is my home and I LOVE THIS COUNTRY!!! but like the African Americans before me we are denied that right!!...
I have like you moved on with my life and though i still live here i have chose to make charge of my life and remove..that negative element!
And i have found that there are places that you can go and make allot of money and not have all the necessary baggage of the "American experience".
In my travels throughout Europe, Aisia , the Middle east and the Caribbean I have met many different people who lived through WW2 and they "ALL" tell met the exact same thing that "America Today" has become more & more like Europe in 1938 when Hitler
came to power and the Socalist policies of "The Third Reich". which were firmly embraced by the "ARIAN" Citizenry......
So as they say"Hind sight is always 20/20."


Taz,


What in the world do the citizenry of Europe who lived through WWII know about "America Today?" Hitler came to power because he killed. Read up on the night of the brown knives if you want some detail. And last I checked, I played golf with two friends of mine who are first generation lebanese american two weeks ago...I wasn't spending the day trying to find a way to keep them out of the concentration camps!!! I assume you were reacting with emotion when you wrote those comments because they are tremendously ABSURD!!

If you moved on, good luck. Real Americans don't run away because they feel they haven't been treated well at times. Welcome to the Club. Everyone gets treated badly and shafted at some point in their life. A positive ATTITUDE will always overcome any short-term negative occurence. And although I do agree with your comments about the overall plights of african americans in this country, there are one heck of alot of african american millionaires here, and not just athletes. I'd be surprised if your experiences really compared very closely to theirs.


Mr. I.

 

[Timebuilder]

Wow. I go out of town for a few days, and I miss a post like Taz's. I'll proceed on the assumption that the quote was accurate.

I don't know if you have had a chance to read Ward Connerly, or listen to men like Walter Williams or JC Watts. That's just a short list of highly visible african americans who haven't bought into the victimization line.

The most successful blacks in America fall into two camps: those who have a positive, non-victim attitude of success, and those who are self-proclaimed "leaders" who perpetuate the "I be oppessed" attitude. The blacks who are still struggling are the ones who listen to those of the second camp, the big government, restitution crowd. Don't fall for that line. It's poison, and at its worst supports a justification of racist beliefs. Your success is the best weapon against racism, and victimization only provides fuel for hatred.

Before you make reference to a European belief about the US, you need to research those who were the downtrodden during Hitler's rise to power. Talk to the people who survived the concentration camps, and ask THEM if the US today is in any way similar to the socialist labor party of Hitler. Certainly, you can ask any number of thousands of people around the world about the US today, and find a vehement anti-American sentiment. Consider the source: people who know little of freedom in general, or America in particular. And remember this: if it weren't for us, they'd be saying "seig heil!"

 

[daedaepilot]

Wow. I go out of town for a few days, and I miss a post like Taz's. I'll proceed on the assumption that the quote was accurate.

I don't know if you have had a chance to read Ward Connerly, or listen to men like Walter Williams or JC Watts. That's just a short list of highly visible african americans who haven't bought into the victimization line.

The most successful blacks in America fall into two camps: those who have a positive, non-victim attitude of success, and those who are self-proclaimed "leaders" who perpetuate the "I be oppessed" attitude. The blacks who are still struggling are the ones who listen to those of the second camp, the big government, restitution crowd. Don't fall for that line. It's poison, and at its worst supports a justification of racist beliefs. Your success is the best weapon against racism, and victimization only provides fuel for hatred.

hmmm....someone obviously has an agenda! It amazes me how ultra-conservatives can completely manipulate a topic to fit their own B.S.
What do black republicans and victimization have to do with this topic? Nothing! Leave it up to the Far Right to find something.

 

[Timebuilder]

Either you didn't read the post to which I was responding, or you chose not to find the relevance.

I find that very discouraging.

Okay, I'll help you out:

"Like you this is my home and I LOVE THIS COUNTRY!!! but like the African Americans before me we are denied that right!!...

This kind of thinking is indicative of someone who is dangerously close to limiting his own worth by accepting what others are telling him about how he has been victimized.

Is that clear?

 

[HA25]

Ty, Have you heard of the saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do?"

That woman pilot, as an officer in the US Airforce, should have respected the culture of the country which she is based. While I was there during the Persian Gulf war, we were asked to keep certain magazines out of the country, and to keep alcohol out. We had many cultural constrainsts that we were bound by.

In this woman's case, this was the wish of not just the Saudi government, but her commander. Instead she put her feminist view of how she should dress infront of the good of the US in it's efforts to keep peace in that region. She created an international incedent. Maybe I see it differently, but she did the exact opposite of what a true patriot would have done. She placed her own needs infront of that of the United States.

As a son of a 30 year State Dept Security Attache, I have lived in the Middle East, and other places in Africa and Europe. I can tell you that there are no kinder people than some of the Arabs I met, and there are also some real jerks there, just like in the US. People are People, where ever you go.

Finally, Japan and other parts of Asia, as well as the middle east have more conservative views of women's roles than we do. WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT, IT IS THEIR RIGHT. We run things our way in our borders and they do the same with in their.

Get over it, the US is not the only place where people live on this planet.

 

[Timebuilder]

As a son of a 30 year State Dept Security Attache, I have lived in the Middle East, and other places in Africa and Europe. I can tell you that there are no kinder people than some of the Arabs I met, and there are also some real jerks there, just like in the US. People are People, where ever you go.

If your father is still living, ask him how we managed to take such a pasting from 19 radicals whom the saudi government has allowed to flourish? People are people, and some are unequivocally evil. Other people let them practice their evil.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, Have you heard of the saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do?"[/i]

Yep . . . but when I was in Rome, I was there because I wanted to visit, not because they begged me to come there and save them from the Spartans.

That woman pilot, as an officer in the US Airforce, should have respected the culture of the country which she is based. While I was there during the Persian Gulf war, we were asked to keep certain magazines out of the country, and to keep alcohol out. We had many cultural constrainsts that we were bound by.



See above. If you call the fire deptartment to come save your burning house, you don't ask them to not stand on their lawn.

In this woman's case, this was the wish of not just the Saudi government, but her commander. Instead she put her feminist view of how she should dress infront of the good of the US in it's efforts to keep peace in that region. She created an international incedent. Maybe I see it differently, but she did the exact opposite of what a true patriot would have done. She placed her own needs infront of that of the United States.

Don't know the case you are talking about- I am talking about the fact that it was very disrespectful of the Saudis to even make that request, and for our own people to go along with it was absurd.

You don't ask people who are risking their lives to come save your ass to subjugate themselves. That, my friend, was disrespectful to us.

The Saudis should have swallowed the slightly painful medicine of allowing us to observe OUR own customs, and had the testicular fortitude to explain to their people that, as gracious hosts, this would be allowed. Funny thing is, the Sauds wouldn't have to walk on eggshells with their people if they weren't trying to hold together an 18th century monarchy at the expense of their citizens.

Get over it, the US is not the only place where people live on this planet.

The Gulf War was different, because we were there at THEIR request to save them from the "Arab brothers". That was the point and premise of the whole thing, and somehow you missed it.

 

[HA25]

This is not as simple as you guys think. I was but a tank unit soldier, while in the Gulf, but I can tell you that we were there at a lot more than their request.

There are a lot of US interests (read $$$$) in that region. We were there to protect our interests first, than save a bunch of spoiled royal from their "arab brothers" as you put it. For all intents and purposes, we would have been just as happy to buy oil from Iraq instead of Kuwait, but instead we came in and repelled the Iraqi army back from Kuwait (not Saudi Arabia, there were never being attacked). The reason for our doing so, was that GW #41 was also a political friend of the Kuwaiti royal family, and the US was an alley. We had to set a precedent as to tell any country in the world that they cannot commit aggression (like that which Hitler did onto our allies in Europe) and not pay the price for it.

But from a practical standpoint, we could have bought oil from any leader in the region, oil is a commodity and you cannot control exactly where you buy it from, and it really doesn't matter, what matters the the net volume that is pumped in the world at any given time.

As for being invited to help them by the Saudi's. There was no such invitation. We REQUESTED to use their soil to mount this war as it made the most strategic sense. We could have just as well used Egypt, Jordan, or any other place. How ever their proximity to Kuwait (which was the victim of Saddam's attacks) made that country appropriate.

Now Saudi is a lot more conservative that Kuwait, and there lies your misunderstanding. We were not dictated to by the Kuwaiti government as to how to dress and how our women should look. That was a stipulation that the Saudi's requested, not demanded of our Leaders (4 star generals and DOD types, not some renegade AF officer with a femist ax to grind) chose to observe, and still choose to(that is official US policy). We are there now, NOT AT THEIR REQUEST, but at OURS! please re-read that line again, incase it didn’t sink in. They would have more peace with their people if were we gone from Saudi Arabia, and Bin Ladin would have less of a hate for us (albeit not much less)

You need to understand the politics of the region or you start to sound like a Xenophobe, or the stereotypical “ugly-American” that the Europeans already think we are and makes all Americans seem less educated that them.

Read about the Middle East, and about the history of the Royal Family, they were no more Royal than any other Saudi, we made them Royal with out need for their oil. And read about the British division of Jordan/Palestine, and creation of the state of Israel, it is more complicated than CNN will have you believe. Finally read about Islam, and the significance of Mecca, and Saudi Arabia in that religion.

It would be like if a person went to Rome, and to the Vatican (where my faith is based) and decided to desecrate it with their political views just to prove a point. I would be offend too.



Footnote: I am 3rd generation US citizen of mixed background, I am a Republican and a GW voter(mostly for religious resons), I am a conservative and practicing Catholic, and I am former US military with Gulf War service.

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks for your post, but since you seem to breeze through my posts without reading them closely, it's pretty clear that it's been a waste of time.

If you had taken the time to read my posts from the beginning, you would see that I HAVE been to the Middle East. I HAVE studied the history of the region, and I am not a Xenophobe, a Jingoist, or an Ugly American.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. . . . but I will point out an error in your last post - we did save the Saudis and their royal asses . . . . The Iraquis were not stopping with Kuwait.