Saudi

[HA25]

Ty, Have you heard of the saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do?"

That woman pilot, as an officer in the US Airforce, should have respected the culture of the country which she is based. While I was there during the Persian Gulf war, we were asked to keep certain magazines out of the country, and to keep alcohol out. We had many cultural constrainsts that we were bound by.

In this woman's case, this was the wish of not just the Saudi government, but her commander. Instead she put her feminist view of how she should dress infront of the good of the US in it's efforts to keep peace in that region. She created an international incedent. Maybe I see it differently, but she did the exact opposite of what a true patriot would have done. She placed her own needs infront of that of the United States.

As a son of a 30 year State Dept Security Attache, I have lived in the Middle East, and other places in Africa and Europe. I can tell you that there are no kinder people than some of the Arabs I met, and there are also some real jerks there, just like in the US. People are People, where ever you go.

Finally, Japan and other parts of Asia, as well as the middle east have more conservative views of women's roles than we do. WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT, IT IS THEIR RIGHT. We run things our way in our borders and they do the same with in their.

Get over it, the US is not the only place where people live on this planet.

 

[Timebuilder]

As a son of a 30 year State Dept Security Attache, I have lived in the Middle East, and other places in Africa and Europe. I can tell you that there are no kinder people than some of the Arabs I met, and there are also some real jerks there, just like in the US. People are People, where ever you go.

If your father is still living, ask him how we managed to take such a pasting from 19 radicals whom the saudi government has allowed to flourish? People are people, and some are unequivocally evil. Other people let them practice their evil.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, Have you heard of the saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do?"[/i]

Yep . . . but when I was in Rome, I was there because I wanted to visit, not because they begged me to come there and save them from the Spartans.

That woman pilot, as an officer in the US Airforce, should have respected the culture of the country which she is based. While I was there during the Persian Gulf war, we were asked to keep certain magazines out of the country, and to keep alcohol out. We had many cultural constrainsts that we were bound by.



See above. If you call the fire deptartment to come save your burning house, you don't ask them to not stand on their lawn.

In this woman's case, this was the wish of not just the Saudi government, but her commander. Instead she put her feminist view of how she should dress infront of the good of the US in it's efforts to keep peace in that region. She created an international incedent. Maybe I see it differently, but she did the exact opposite of what a true patriot would have done. She placed her own needs infront of that of the United States.

Don't know the case you are talking about- I am talking about the fact that it was very disrespectful of the Saudis to even make that request, and for our own people to go along with it was absurd.

You don't ask people who are risking their lives to come save your ass to subjugate themselves. That, my friend, was disrespectful to us.

The Saudis should have swallowed the slightly painful medicine of allowing us to observe OUR own customs, and had the testicular fortitude to explain to their people that, as gracious hosts, this would be allowed. Funny thing is, the Sauds wouldn't have to walk on eggshells with their people if they weren't trying to hold together an 18th century monarchy at the expense of their citizens.

Get over it, the US is not the only place where people live on this planet.

The Gulf War was different, because we were there at THEIR request to save them from the "Arab brothers". That was the point and premise of the whole thing, and somehow you missed it.

 

[HA25]

This is not as simple as you guys think. I was but a tank unit soldier, while in the Gulf, but I can tell you that we were there at a lot more than their request.

There are a lot of US interests (read $$$$) in that region. We were there to protect our interests first, than save a bunch of spoiled royal from their "arab brothers" as you put it. For all intents and purposes, we would have been just as happy to buy oil from Iraq instead of Kuwait, but instead we came in and repelled the Iraqi army back from Kuwait (not Saudi Arabia, there were never being attacked). The reason for our doing so, was that GW #41 was also a political friend of the Kuwaiti royal family, and the US was an alley. We had to set a precedent as to tell any country in the world that they cannot commit aggression (like that which Hitler did onto our allies in Europe) and not pay the price for it.

But from a practical standpoint, we could have bought oil from any leader in the region, oil is a commodity and you cannot control exactly where you buy it from, and it really doesn't matter, what matters the the net volume that is pumped in the world at any given time.

As for being invited to help them by the Saudi's. There was no such invitation. We REQUESTED to use their soil to mount this war as it made the most strategic sense. We could have just as well used Egypt, Jordan, or any other place. How ever their proximity to Kuwait (which was the victim of Saddam's attacks) made that country appropriate.

Now Saudi is a lot more conservative that Kuwait, and there lies your misunderstanding. We were not dictated to by the Kuwaiti government as to how to dress and how our women should look. That was a stipulation that the Saudi's requested, not demanded of our Leaders (4 star generals and DOD types, not some renegade AF officer with a femist ax to grind) chose to observe, and still choose to(that is official US policy). We are there now, NOT AT THEIR REQUEST, but at OURS! please re-read that line again, incase it didn’t sink in. They would have more peace with their people if were we gone from Saudi Arabia, and Bin Ladin would have less of a hate for us (albeit not much less)

You need to understand the politics of the region or you start to sound like a Xenophobe, or the stereotypical “ugly-American” that the Europeans already think we are and makes all Americans seem less educated that them.

Read about the Middle East, and about the history of the Royal Family, they were no more Royal than any other Saudi, we made them Royal with out need for their oil. And read about the British division of Jordan/Palestine, and creation of the state of Israel, it is more complicated than CNN will have you believe. Finally read about Islam, and the significance of Mecca, and Saudi Arabia in that religion.

It would be like if a person went to Rome, and to the Vatican (where my faith is based) and decided to desecrate it with their political views just to prove a point. I would be offend too.



Footnote: I am 3rd generation US citizen of mixed background, I am a Republican and a GW voter(mostly for religious resons), I am a conservative and practicing Catholic, and I am former US military with Gulf War service.

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks for your post, but since you seem to breeze through my posts without reading them closely, it's pretty clear that it's been a waste of time.

If you had taken the time to read my posts from the beginning, you would see that I HAVE been to the Middle East. I HAVE studied the history of the region, and I am not a Xenophobe, a Jingoist, or an Ugly American.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. . . . but I will point out an error in your last post - we did save the Saudis and their royal asses . . . . The Iraquis were not stopping with Kuwait.

 

[HA25]

Ty,

Sorry if it seemed that I didn't read your post, I did, and I just did again to be sure I didn't miss anything. I don't want you to take from my stating my Gulf War vet status that you were no less deserving of the same respect. Many of us were there in different capacities, I on the ground, some in the air, and all of us did our duty to our country. That was the premis of my original post as it relates to your point about the woman AF pilot who had to cover her self, even though she was there to "save" them as you erroniously stated. As the whole incident occured less than 2 years ago, if memory serves, and the war was 12.

So unless you were preview to inteligance that our government didn't have, Saudi Arabia was never in Saddam's sights. As if you go back and look at your books on the region, you will see that what is now the Kingdom of Kuwait, was 85 years ago, part of Iraq, and that was Saddams resoning (flawed by todays border agreements) for going into Kuwait. Saudi Arabia has never been part of Iraq.

Anyway, no animosity inteded, just trying to add to the mix of opinions.

 

[metrodriver]

I have no problem with background checks. The only thing is the government is going way overboard. As airline employees we already undergo a 10 year background check, and I think it should be sufficient. And why only such a cumbersome process for non-us citizens (I know people with green cards who have been in this country for over 40 years, pay the taxes and have every obligation as a citizen has, but can't vote)? I think the same background check should apply for citizens. Up to sept 11 every terrorist attack in the US was executed by US citizens (remember Oklahoma city, the guy who crashed a cessna in the white house lawn?). Every person that I know of middle eastern decsent that I know (most are US citizens) denounces the sept 11 attacks.
It's very sad that a few idiots ruined the lives of so many, even sadder that the government makes it worse for even more people with plans they don't even know how to handle.
btw, I'm not from that region.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Terror

The background checks are indeed needed, very badly if you ask me. They should detain, not jail the people while the checks are in progress.

On a side note I heard on the radio today some dumb Paki extremist blew up a christian hospital run near the capital that cared for poor people with eye disease. It was run by the Presbyterian Church (USA). Some of these Pakis dont have sense God gave a billy goat. Blowing up a FREE hospital that cared for there own. Man what fools, it makes me sad how dumb some of these people are.

 

[Vik]

metrodriver,

"Every person that I know of middle eastern decsent that I know (most are US citizens) denounces the sept 11 attacks."

The Taliban denounced the attacks as well. Please recognize that there might be sleeper terrorists amongst us. Actually, there *ARE* sleeper terrorists amongst us. There is no doubt about that as far as the FBI is concerned.

I am not saying all your Muslim, Arab friends are terrorists. I am just saying that because people might denounce attacks, does not mean they are on our side.

 

[HA25]

Something needs to be said here before we start getting worried about our Arabic friends in the US being 9/11 terrorists.

Arab and Muslim are not one in the same. There are 4 million people in this country that can call them selves Arab (1/4 or more), and 8 million that can call themselves muslim. Many muslims are Afro-Americans who are 10th generation, and many Arabs are Christian as you can get.

Stereotypes can get you in trouble. Many Muslim extremists are non-Arab, like which can be found in Malaysia, and the Philippines. Afghanistan and Pakistan are not Arabic countries, they are however Muslim.

B J J, Some Arabs that you may be doing your background check on in this country might be: Doug Flutie, Bobby Rahal, Selma Hayek, Yasmine Bleeth, Sen. George Mitchell, Sen. Spencer Abraham, WWII Ace Col. Jabara (airport in Kansas KAAO named for), former NATO CINC Gen. George Joulwan, Gov/Bush 41 Chief of Staff John Sununu, Ralph Nader, Donna Shalala (HHS for Clinton) and there are many more you can find at:

www.aaiusa.org/famous_arab_americans.htm

Its also worth noting that the vast majority are not Muslim and are 2nd or 3rd generation or more.

Lets not go into a frenzy here about Arabs. This is about religious extremists and nothing more. US citizents HAVE to be treated equally.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think you left out Paula Abdul, my favorite Arab from my radio days in the 80's...

Seriously, you have to bear in mind that the terrorists didn't care about the scrutiny that arab americans would endure, because to the terrorists, all of those people on the website are just as bad as the rest of us.

The problem is this: there ARE sleeper cells here. When it comes to security, we MUST, if we are logical beings, give more attention to those people who are the likely members of these terrorist cells. Wasn't it gangster John Dillinger who was asked why he robbed banks, and he answered that "that's where the money is"? Since all of the terrorists fall into two easily defined groups, it is a logical extension to expect other terrorists to fall into those categories, too. Not all of them mind you, but a significant number.

In other words, a place to start.

 

[HA25]

I am 100% behind background check of ALL foreign nationals who chose to live here. Once the check is done, however, that needs to be it.

As for checks on people who are already citizens, that is where you get the ACLU out from deep inside me (and I mean deep).

 

[Timebuilder]

I see, and I think you are right.

It won't change until an american citizen has been identified as the participant in our next terror attack. The ACLU will STILL be all up in arms as we try to recover from that episode.

The idea of "civil liberties" has been horribly corrupted by this one organization. Their ideas are predicated on the post-modernist notion that all ideas have a theoretical value of equal merit, and there is no set of absolute ideas of good and evil for a society. If they had their druthers, we would be a socialist country living in near-anarchy conditions.

I am 100% behind background check of ALL foreign nationals who chose to live here. Once the check is done, however, that needs to be it.

What happens when 19 more nut cases decide to join their brothers in paradise by atacking "the infidel" from within, and they have already become citizens?

 

[HA25]

I don't get it, are you saying that we need to monitor all Muslims and Arabs who live in this country at all times even after attaining citizenship (which can take 10 years or more) and passed all background checks?

I think that qualifies as paranoid. Your last statement reads as though you know for a fact that some citizens of the US, of Arab or Muslim background, WILL attack us again. The 19 that did 9/11 were not even close to being citizens, none were even seeking it.

I am glad that Ashcroft is more sensable in this respect.

So far the only internal attacks by citizens were from right-wing whites like McVay, and the Unibomber.

 

[Timebuilder]

I don't get it, are you saying that we need to monitor all Muslims and Arabs who live in this country at all times even after attaining citizenship (which can take 10 years or more) and passed all background checks?

No. I don't mean to say that at all. I DO mean to say that anyone who fits into the same categories as terrorists (using common sense to exclude those who are very unlikely to become involved with terror, such as famous people or senators...) need to be the beginning of additional attention in a security environment such as an airline checkpoint. Checking my grandmother won't stop another terrorist attack, but being unwilling to check others who are far more likely than my grandmother to be involved with terrorist activity is a mistake, and can be considered aiding the terrorist cause.

I think that qualifies as paranoid. Your last statement reads as though you know for a fact that some citizens of the US, of Arab or Muslim background, WILL attack us again. The 19 that did 9/11 were not even close to being citizens, none were even seeking it.

Remember what was said of those who wanted to INCREASE security for aircraft BEFORE 9/11?

They were accused of being paranoid!

Can you give an argument that says that it is unlikely that a US citizen from an arab or muslim group will NOT join the terrorist cause? If no, we are looking at a 50% chance that either one of us is right. Now, what do you suggest that we do about that? I don't like the idea of infringing on the rights of anyone, but I am at a loss to come up with a different solution to this quandry besides increasing the awareness we have concerning groups that could have members who are sympathetic to the terrorist cause. One way might be to sit back and say that it is against our principles as Americans to do anything other than what we are currently doing.

Is what we are doing enough, or should we we doing more?

Are we willing to pay the price for our inability to cope with this threat in a credible manner?

 

[HA25]

I can tell you this, and as I stated before my father (RIP) who worked with the State Dept used to tell me this as well. If the US wants to find someone, this will. Whether you know it or not, we have an amazing intelligence machine, between the NSA/CIA and State Dept, and that just covers "outside" this country(wink..nod).

I personally know a British SAS member who as recently as 3 years ago had Bin Ladin in his sights, we chose to keep Bin Ladin alive. We chose to do a lot of things that the media doesn't report (casue they don't know). You can rest assured that if there is an Arab American in this country that our government has reason to think is suspicious, he is already being watched. No matter what the ACLU or CNN tell you.

I am comfortable with my security as it is today, I am however sick of the TSA and their profile of 1 way last minute business flyers.

 

[Timebuilder]

I agree. ALL of my ticketed flying is one way business. I had to start wearing slip-on loafers because I have to take off my shoes twice to get on board an airplane.

Were you able to ask your dad how those 19 guys got in under the intelligence radar? None of my academy friends in intel are able to explain that to my satisfaction.

You can rest assured that if there is an Arab American in this country that our government has reason to think is suspicious, he is already being watched. No matter what the ACLU or CNN tell you.

I'm more concerned with the ones that are unknown, the ones who decide to act with other "unknowns" in a copy-cat or extremist fashion. How about the dishwasher at the diner named Mohammed who has a bone to pick with us and falls in with a bunch at his mosque who look up to the "bravery" and "dedication" of the 9/11 hijackers, and wishes to join them in "paradise"?

That's the kind of guy that I'm worried about. The guy who is easily mislead and tempted by the praise found in papers from the mideast, where the hijackers are being glorified...

 

[HA25]

My dad had a long life that gave out back in '94 at age 79. He was a full bird colonel in the Army (infantry) and retired in '59 after two wars a purple heart and the Bronze Star. Then served 30 years in the State dept, before retiring again in '90.

As for the sleeper cells, I agree there are possibly some, but you can rest assured they are not as asleep as you are being lead to think(that is they are being watched 24/7).

Also, lets not forget that a Jewish Pediotrist tried to bomb a Afro-American Muslim mosque in FL just last week. This is a problem of extreme religuous nuts, whether Christian, Muslim or Jewish, and not just your friendly local hard working imigrant.

 

[metrodriver]

I heard nobody say anything yet about this Lindt character, you know, the american taliban. The US has been lucky when it comes to terrorism, until 9-11. Europe had to endure many bombings, either from within or outside (IRA in England/ Ireland, ETA in Spain, hijackings in the 70's and 80's, Abu Nidal who blow up a bar in Berlin killing several US servicemen and the attacks on the Vienna and Rome airports, and the Rote Armee in Germany).What scares me in this country are the militia, like on Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and the clan in Waco, Texas. These people are a lot harder to track, and some have tactics similar to what the clowns in afghanistan had. That's why I would like to see background checks for everyone, US citizen or not. Do it without the 45 day waiting period like the current one for non-citizens, this makes a lot of airlines simply closing the doors for these people (which is illegal, but it's hard to prove)

 

[HA25]

I am for a manditory background check on ALL people who want to ride a jet in the US under FAR 121. I say make them do it once, for free, then issue them a travel id card, and if they don't have it at the security check point, they don't go.

End of discussion