Saudi

[HA25]

Ty, Have you heard of the saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do?"

That woman pilot, as an officer in the US Airforce, should have respected the culture of the country which she is based. While I was there during the Persian Gulf war, we were asked to keep certain magazines out of the country, and to keep alcohol out. We had many cultural constrainsts that we were bound by.

In this woman's case, this was the wish of not just the Saudi government, but her commander. Instead she put her feminist view of how she should dress infront of the good of the US in it's efforts to keep peace in that region. She created an international incedent. Maybe I see it differently, but she did the exact opposite of what a true patriot would have done. She placed her own needs infront of that of the United States.

As a son of a 30 year State Dept Security Attache, I have lived in the Middle East, and other places in Africa and Europe. I can tell you that there are no kinder people than some of the Arabs I met, and there are also some real jerks there, just like in the US. People are People, where ever you go.

Finally, Japan and other parts of Asia, as well as the middle east have more conservative views of women's roles than we do. WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT, IT IS THEIR RIGHT. We run things our way in our borders and they do the same with in their.

Get over it, the US is not the only place where people live on this planet.

 

[Timebuilder]

As a son of a 30 year State Dept Security Attache, I have lived in the Middle East, and other places in Africa and Europe. I can tell you that there are no kinder people than some of the Arabs I met, and there are also some real jerks there, just like in the US. People are People, where ever you go.

If your father is still living, ask him how we managed to take such a pasting from 19 radicals whom the saudi government has allowed to flourish? People are people, and some are unequivocally evil. Other people let them practice their evil.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, Have you heard of the saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do?"[/i]

Yep . . . but when I was in Rome, I was there because I wanted to visit, not because they begged me to come there and save them from the Spartans.

That woman pilot, as an officer in the US Airforce, should have respected the culture of the country which she is based. While I was there during the Persian Gulf war, we were asked to keep certain magazines out of the country, and to keep alcohol out. We had many cultural constrainsts that we were bound by.



See above. If you call the fire deptartment to come save your burning house, you don't ask them to not stand on their lawn.

In this woman's case, this was the wish of not just the Saudi government, but her commander. Instead she put her feminist view of how she should dress infront of the good of the US in it's efforts to keep peace in that region. She created an international incedent. Maybe I see it differently, but she did the exact opposite of what a true patriot would have done. She placed her own needs infront of that of the United States.

Don't know the case you are talking about- I am talking about the fact that it was very disrespectful of the Saudis to even make that request, and for our own people to go along with it was absurd.

You don't ask people who are risking their lives to come save your ass to subjugate themselves. That, my friend, was disrespectful to us.

The Saudis should have swallowed the slightly painful medicine of allowing us to observe OUR own customs, and had the testicular fortitude to explain to their people that, as gracious hosts, this would be allowed. Funny thing is, the Sauds wouldn't have to walk on eggshells with their people if they weren't trying to hold together an 18th century monarchy at the expense of their citizens.

Get over it, the US is not the only place where people live on this planet.

The Gulf War was different, because we were there at THEIR request to save them from the "Arab brothers". That was the point and premise of the whole thing, and somehow you missed it.

 

[HA25]

This is not as simple as you guys think. I was but a tank unit soldier, while in the Gulf, but I can tell you that we were there at a lot more than their request.

There are a lot of US interests (read $$$$) in that region. We were there to protect our interests first, than save a bunch of spoiled royal from their "arab brothers" as you put it. For all intents and purposes, we would have been just as happy to buy oil from Iraq instead of Kuwait, but instead we came in and repelled the Iraqi army back from Kuwait (not Saudi Arabia, there were never being attacked). The reason for our doing so, was that GW #41 was also a political friend of the Kuwaiti royal family, and the US was an alley. We had to set a precedent as to tell any country in the world that they cannot commit aggression (like that which Hitler did onto our allies in Europe) and not pay the price for it.

But from a practical standpoint, we could have bought oil from any leader in the region, oil is a commodity and you cannot control exactly where you buy it from, and it really doesn't matter, what matters the the net volume that is pumped in the world at any given time.

As for being invited to help them by the Saudi's. There was no such invitation. We REQUESTED to use their soil to mount this war as it made the most strategic sense. We could have just as well used Egypt, Jordan, or any other place. How ever their proximity to Kuwait (which was the victim of Saddam's attacks) made that country appropriate.

Now Saudi is a lot more conservative that Kuwait, and there lies your misunderstanding. We were not dictated to by the Kuwaiti government as to how to dress and how our women should look. That was a stipulation that the Saudi's requested, not demanded of our Leaders (4 star generals and DOD types, not some renegade AF officer with a femist ax to grind) chose to observe, and still choose to(that is official US policy). We are there now, NOT AT THEIR REQUEST, but at OURS! please re-read that line again, incase it didn’t sink in. They would have more peace with their people if were we gone from Saudi Arabia, and Bin Ladin would have less of a hate for us (albeit not much less)

You need to understand the politics of the region or you start to sound like a Xenophobe, or the stereotypical “ugly-American” that the Europeans already think we are and makes all Americans seem less educated that them.

Read about the Middle East, and about the history of the Royal Family, they were no more Royal than any other Saudi, we made them Royal with out need for their oil. And read about the British division of Jordan/Palestine, and creation of the state of Israel, it is more complicated than CNN will have you believe. Finally read about Islam, and the significance of Mecca, and Saudi Arabia in that religion.

It would be like if a person went to Rome, and to the Vatican (where my faith is based) and decided to desecrate it with their political views just to prove a point. I would be offend too.



Footnote: I am 3rd generation US citizen of mixed background, I am a Republican and a GW voter(mostly for religious resons), I am a conservative and practicing Catholic, and I am former US military with Gulf War service.

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks for your post, but since you seem to breeze through my posts without reading them closely, it's pretty clear that it's been a waste of time.

If you had taken the time to read my posts from the beginning, you would see that I HAVE been to the Middle East. I HAVE studied the history of the region, and I am not a Xenophobe, a Jingoist, or an Ugly American.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. . . . but I will point out an error in your last post - we did save the Saudis and their royal asses . . . . The Iraquis were not stopping with Kuwait.

 

[HA25]

Ty,

Sorry if it seemed that I didn't read your post, I did, and I just did again to be sure I didn't miss anything. I don't want you to take from my stating my Gulf War vet status that you were no less deserving of the same respect. Many of us were there in different capacities, I on the ground, some in the air, and all of us did our duty to our country. That was the premis of my original post as it relates to your point about the woman AF pilot who had to cover her self, even though she was there to "save" them as you erroniously stated. As the whole incident occured less than 2 years ago, if memory serves, and the war was 12.

So unless you were preview to inteligance that our government didn't have, Saudi Arabia was never in Saddam's sights. As if you go back and look at your books on the region, you will see that what is now the Kingdom of Kuwait, was 85 years ago, part of Iraq, and that was Saddams resoning (flawed by todays border agreements) for going into Kuwait. Saudi Arabia has never been part of Iraq.

Anyway, no animosity inteded, just trying to add to the mix of opinions.

 

[metrodriver]

I have no problem with background checks. The only thing is the government is going way overboard. As airline employees we already undergo a 10 year background check, and I think it should be sufficient. And why only such a cumbersome process for non-us citizens (I know people with green cards who have been in this country for over 40 years, pay the taxes and have every obligation as a citizen has, but can't vote)? I think the same background check should apply for citizens. Up to sept 11 every terrorist attack in the US was executed by US citizens (remember Oklahoma city, the guy who crashed a cessna in the white house lawn?). Every person that I know of middle eastern decsent that I know (most are US citizens) denounces the sept 11 attacks.
It's very sad that a few idiots ruined the lives of so many, even sadder that the government makes it worse for even more people with plans they don't even know how to handle.
btw, I'm not from that region.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Terror

The background checks are indeed needed, very badly if you ask me. They should detain, not jail the people while the checks are in progress.

On a side note I heard on the radio today some dumb Paki extremist blew up a christian hospital run near the capital that cared for poor people with eye disease. It was run by the Presbyterian Church (USA). Some of these Pakis dont have sense God gave a billy goat. Blowing up a FREE hospital that cared for there own. Man what fools, it makes me sad how dumb some of these people are.

 

[Vik]

metrodriver,

"Every person that I know of middle eastern decsent that I know (most are US citizens) denounces the sept 11 attacks."

The Taliban denounced the attacks as well. Please recognize that there might be sleeper terrorists amongst us. Actually, there *ARE* sleeper terrorists amongst us. There is no doubt about that as far as the FBI is concerned.

I am not saying all your Muslim, Arab friends are terrorists. I am just saying that because people might denounce attacks, does not mean they are on our side.

 

[HA25]

Something needs to be said here before we start getting worried about our Arabic friends in the US being 9/11 terrorists.

Arab and Muslim are not one in the same. There are 4 million people in this country that can call them selves Arab (1/4 or more), and 8 million that can call themselves muslim. Many muslims are Afro-Americans who are 10th generation, and many Arabs are Christian as you can get.

Stereotypes can get you in trouble. Many Muslim extremists are non-Arab, like which can be found in Malaysia, and the Philippines. Afghanistan and Pakistan are not Arabic countries, they are however Muslim.

B J J, Some Arabs that you may be doing your background check on in this country might be: Doug Flutie, Bobby Rahal, Selma Hayek, Yasmine Bleeth, Sen. George Mitchell, Sen. Spencer Abraham, WWII Ace Col. Jabara (airport in Kansas KAAO named for), former NATO CINC Gen. George Joulwan, Gov/Bush 41 Chief of Staff John Sununu, Ralph Nader, Donna Shalala (HHS for Clinton) and there are many more you can find at:

www.aaiusa.org/famous_arab_americans.htm

Its also worth noting that the vast majority are not Muslim and are 2nd or 3rd generation or more.

Lets not go into a frenzy here about Arabs. This is about religious extremists and nothing more. US citizents HAVE to be treated equally.