Santulli's visit to SC?

[NJA Capt]

My office is at 51,000 and Mach .92 What's that got to do with it?

Well.....at least until we get these.

 

[GVFlyer]

A Global Express, but bigger. Flown a Phantom II at TPS-a pig by today's standards.

Miles, I have to get involved here. While the Global might out perform a Phantom II, it doesn’t come close to meeting the performance of the G550.

The first reason is simple physics - the G550 weights 7.5% less and has 5% more thrust. The Basic Operating Weight for the G550 is 48,000 lbs and it has 30,770 pounds of thrust giving it a basic power loading of 1 pound of thrust for each 1.56 pounds of airplane. The BOW for the Global Express XRS is 51,500 lbs and it has 29,500 pounds of thrust. Thus the Global has 1 pound of thrust pushing 1.75 pounds of Canadian jet. Of course this doesn’t account for some of the trick stuff on the G550 like the Thrust Recovery Outflow Valve which vectors outflow air at up to 10.48 psid for additional thrust or the blunt edged flap trailing edges which reduce drag above M 0.85.

The comparison is worse at max gross take-off weight – the G550 takes off at 91,000 lbs, the Global XRS has less thrust pushing 98,250 lbs at take-off.


Number two and more importantly is Gulfstream's basic design philosophy. Let me explain. The thrust deck or propulsive power (Wpa) available determines the aircraft volume that can be propelled through the air at a given speed. As such, with the same engines, the volume of the GV and the GEX is roughly equivalent. Bombardier spent more of their volume on cabin, Gulfstream spent theirs on wing. The Gulfstream has 1136.6 sq ft of wing, the Global has 1022 sq. ft. The resultant is that the GEX is a high wing loading, point design, buffet limited airplane and the Gulfstream is not. The Global also pays for this large cabin with increased total parasite drag.

Design limit speed on the GV occured when rudder CL beta went positive (fundamentally a control reversal) not because of buffet or flutter. As a matter of fact, serial number 501 went to Mach 1.07 during developmental test. What this means to you is a much more generous height velocity diagram.

For example, in a 63,000 lb G550 at M.080 at 45,000 feet you can perform a 60 degree (2 g) bank without encountering buffet. With the same conditions in the Global you would encounter buffet at 52 degrees or 1.62 g. In a 55,000lb G550, you can still do sustained 45 degree banked turns at 51,000 feet.

Why this is important is that it gives you a huge window between compressibility and stall at altitude. These margins keep you safe if you encounter turbulence and mean that you don't have to descend if it gets hot. No Gulfstream pilot has ever had to look at a buffet chart to see if he could climb. Performance is paramount at Gulfstream.

My biggest personal beef against the Global line is that it is a buffet-limited jet and does not offer the kind of margins found in the Gulfstream GV and it's derivatives. On the G550 there is over a 100 knot window between compressibility and stall at 51,000 feet. Gulfstream has never departed a GV/G550 during development or any other phase of flight. Pete and his test boys had to pull the chute on the Global to regain controlled flight when it pitched-up during FAA required stall testing.

When we did a closed loop handling qualities evaluation of the Global, we got impending indications of an aerodynamic stall prior to shaker and had to knock it off for the test. The Global actually speeds up in a turn at a constant power setting showing that it is aerodynamically operating in the wrong part of the “drag bucket." We could not get the jet to 49,000 feet with only a crew of two and four flight test engineers on board. The area rule design on the Global, while a good idea on fighters, is a design emergency procedure on a transport category jet to reduce excessive drag.

We also found that Max cruise speed was lower than expected. At FL450 and 65,000 lbs, the cruise manual shows the jet should be able to achieve M 0.87+, the Global could only get to M0.865.

During GV altimetry certification we had to fly close formation at various altitudes with a known source. We used the FA-18 for these tests. After completion of the tests at 51,000 feet, the Hornet driver thought he was going to make a run on us. He quickly learned that the FA 18 won’t turn with a Gulfstream at that altitude…and no, we didn’t use “After Fan” (Alternate N1 Control which gives us an additional two-tenths [!] of EPR).

Miles, I saw that you’re a TPS grad. If you’re looking to get back into that line of work, Raytheon needs a test pilot. They just lost one of their guys to Adam Aircraft.

GV







~

 

[semperfido]

i knew there was a reason i liked this g550 so much (and the gv and giv)

 

[G4G5]

Exactly what I was going to say but you beat me to it.

Thanks.

 

[RTRHD]

WOW, V Flyer I am impressed.

 

[Muddauber]

Nice post, GV. I miss the Gulfstream's performance, particularly on positioning flights.

Muddy

 

[Muddauber]

.........................................................................................................

 

[Spyguy]

Miles,
I have to call you out on part of that statement. The F-4 might be a pig by today's Generation 3 and 4 fighter standards, but you and I both know that it can fly far faster than anything any version of an F-18 can come close to, even in a dive. The F-18 isn't exactly known for its speed. So, the Phantom may be older but it is still "faster" than some of today's jets.


"Go Navy Beat Army"

 

[miles otoole]

Miles,


"Go Navy Beat Army"

Now that's the ONLY thing I agree with.

 

[SeaSpray]

...(referring to an earlier post, where you denegrated (sic) Army Warrant Officers as uneducated and unworthy)...

No, chief, I just denigrated you as uneducated and unworthy. The Warrant Officers I met during my joint service tour were professional officers and technicians competent in their specialties.

You still haven't told me what TurboJet you fly.

 

[GerryG]

Wow!

I wonder what Dr. Freud would have to say about all of this?

 

[TurboJetCpt]

No, chief, I just denigrated you as uneducated and unworthy. The Warrant Officers I met during my joint service tour were professional officers and technicians competent in their specialties.

You still haven't told me what TurboJet you fly.

I get it, Captain. You sound like a former Army Warrant Officer with a high school education and a built-in resentment for Commissioned Officers who's just all giddy to be flying something where the wings don't move faster than the fuselage. Give it a break, Chief.

Wrong again...but...at least you are consistently wrong there Chuck Yeager. Please keep it coming...

Gee, all those qualifications and the only job they could find was flying a 16,000 lb Cessna for $hit wages in a glorified charter company. Did these pilots have a history of DWI's or flight violations or was it just that their personalities were the best form of birth control known to man.
You gotta admit that moving from a six figure Gulfstream job to flying for NJA for peanuts is not exactly the career progression most of us would aspire to.

These guys must have screwed the pooch somewhere.

For never flying commercial, you certainly know alot.

I think I see a trend here. NJA is not a first choice company for pilots who have options. If you have Ultra pilots at NJA with over 9,000 hours of heavy time, they either screwed up somewhere and are unemployable in a good job or they are members of the geriatric set and should be thinking about a rocker and a good poop rather than flying tiny Cessnas.

EVER HEAR OF USING LOGIC AND NORMAL LANGUAGE INSTEAD OF POOR TAUNTS? Eagleflip

Maybe it's just because he doesn't want to be a union puppet with someone else pulling his strings and making all his decisions for him. Many pilots chose, as I would have, to go to NJI precisely because it was non union.

No, it's common sense.
Experience in type is only a safety factor in all aspects of aviation except at NJA.
Apparently, reading comprehension is not a requirement to be a union shill.
I was looking forward to joining a group of Gulfstream professionals at NJI. It is apparent that you are planning to dilute the experience base there and change the corporate culture from one I admire to a typical union shop.
Who would go to a union shop with all it's inherent problems when you have other options? If the TA is signed I will be going to a Fortune 500 company that operates Gulfstreams in the New York area - more pay, but I lose the NJI option of chosing where I live.
And you were calling me unprofessional...

SS

Your screen name is even a proclamation of ignorance - no modern airplane uses a "TurboJet.".

DAMN ! I KNEW I should of chosen TurboFan for a screen name...I stand corrected.

My office is at 49,000 feet, chief. What "TurboJet" did you say you were captaining?

AND FINALLY...RE-READ THIS POST...

I'm not fishing; I apparently know more about your union than you do. I'm asking questions to help you learn more about the Teamsters you so fervently embrace. Have you found out why when you broke off from IBT Local 284 you formed Local 1108 rather than an independent union of your own?

Pretty soon now you're going to figure out that Dave V., Peter B., Paul H., Roger B., and Mitch M. weren't the idiots your current union leadership made them out to be. They got you a 13% raise and up to a $25,000 signing bonus that you threw away. You could have taken the TA and had the money while you worked on a new agreement.

Your choice was to have the money now and get more money later or to just get some money later. You chose to just get some money later, probably on about the same timetable as you would have had if you had of accepted the TA and began working on a new agreement last October.

WRONG AGAIN ! Recent history has proven you know NOTHING about what you speak of.

What more can be said that you haven't said already. The problem is, you have much to learn about civilian aviation and you are an extremely arrogant ass. This will not change, but your view of civilian aviation will, over time...whether you admit it or not. I have a feeling you will make quite the name for yourself, upon release from active duty, at any company that is so inclined to actually hire you. Have fun out there...I am done educating you. :laugh:
Moderator reviewed.

 

[VVJM265]

You two are like a couple of little kids.....

 

[SeaSpray]

You two are like a couple of little kids.....

Yeah, I know. But, it's just so easy to get him going.

SS

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

Hey guys, guess what??????

NetJets will get the 7X and 900EX in NOV...

My standing Bid is in!!!!

Official word soon.......

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

........

 

[GEXDriver]

No, chief, I just denigrated you as uneducated and unworthy. The Warrant Officers I met during my joint service tour were professional officers and technicians competent in their specialties.

You still haven't told me what TurboJet you fly.

I get it, Captain. You sound like a former Army Warrant Officer with a high school education and a built-in resentment for Commissioned Officers who's just all giddy to be flying something where the wings don't move faster than the fuselage. Give it a break, Chief.

Wrong again...but...at least you are consistently wrong there Chuck Yeager. Please keep it coming...

Gee, all those qualifications and the only job they could find was flying a 16,000 lb Cessna for $hit wages in a glorified charter company. Did these pilots have a history of DWI's or flight violations or was it just that their personalities were the best form of birth control known to man.
You gotta admit that moving from a six figure Gulfstream job to flying for NJA for peanuts is not exactly the career progression most of us would aspire to.

These guys must have screwed the pooch somewhere.

For never flying commercial, you certainly know alot.

I think I see a trend here. NJA is not a first choice company for pilots who have options. If you have Ultra pilots at NJA with over 9,000 hours of heavy time, they either screwed up somewhere and are unemployable in a good job or they are members of the geriatric set and should be thinking about a rocker and a good poop rather than flying tiny Cessnas.

EVER HEAR OF USING LOGIC AND NORMAL LANGUAGE INSTEAD OF POOR TAUNTS? Eagleflip

Maybe it's just because he doesn't want to be a union puppet with someone else pulling his strings and making all his decisions for him. Many pilots chose, as I would have, to go to NJI precisely because it was non-union.

No, it's common sense.
Experience in type is only a safety factor in all aspects of aviation except at NJA.

Apparently, reading comprehension is not a requirement to be a union shill.
I was looking forward to joining a group of Gulfstream professionals at NJI. It is apparent that you are planning to dilute the experience base there and change the corporate culture from one I admire to a typical union shop.
Who would go to a union shop with all it's inherent problems when you have other options? If the TA is signed I will be going to a Fortune 500 company that operates Gulfstreams in the New York area - more pay, but I lose the NJI option of chosing where I live.
And you were calling me unprofessional...

SS

Your screen name is even a proclamation of ignorance - no modern airplane uses a "TurboJet.".

dang ! I KNEW I should of chosen TurboFan for a screen name...I stand corrected.

My office is at 49,000 feet, chief. What "TurboJet" did you say you were captaining?

AND FINALLY...RE-READ THIS POST...

I'm not fishing; I apparently know more about your union than you do. I'm asking questions to help you learn more about the Teamsters you so fervently embrace. Have you found out why when you broke off from IBT Local 284 you formed Local 1108 rather than an independent union of your own?

Pretty soon now you're going to figure out that Dave V., Peter B., Paul H., Roger B., and Mitch M. weren't the idiots your current union leadership made them out to be. They got you a 13% raise and up to a $25,000 signing bonus that you threw away. You could have taken the TA and had the money while you worked on a new agreement.

Your choice was to have the money now and get more money later or to just get some money later. You chose to just get some money later, probably on about the same timetable as you would have had if you had of accepted the TA and began working on a new agreement last October.

WRONG AGAIN ! Recent history has proven you know NOTHING about what you speak of.

What more can be said that you haven't said already. The problem is, you have much to learn about civilian aviation and you are an extremely arrogant ass. This will not change, but your view of civilian aviation will, over time...whether you admit it or not. I have a feeling you will make quite the name for yourself, upon release from active duty, at any company that is so inclined to actually hire you. Have fun out there...I am done educating you.
Moderator reviewed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Eagleflip : 10-27-2005 at 13:13.

*****

And SeaSpray is wrong exactly where?


Relax, just kidding. But I bet if he doesn't go to NJI, SeaSpray will have no problem finding a left seat job in a Gulfstream - just like every other Gulfstream pilot from Andrews AFB I've ever met. It will either be in some department with one of his buddies who left Andrews ahead of him or with some operator who just put on a new airplane and just has to have a military Gulfstream pilot to fly it. Military wings are magic to a lot of departments: 3M, Altria, Gulfstream, and Proctor and Gamble just to name a few.

I hear that NJI is a lock for military pilots - that their head of standards is an Army pilot from, you quessed it, Andrews AFB.

Well, glad to get that off my chest.





.

 

[Hawk Driver]

I hear that NJI is a lock for military pilots - that their head of standards is an Army pilot from, you quessed it, Andrews AFB.

A former Warrant Officer maybe? Perhaps we should put in a "good" word for SS... NOT

CW3 HD

 

[GVFlyer]

A former Warrant Officer maybe? Perhaps we should put in a "good" word for SS... NOT

CW3 HD

Mikie R. is a former Chief Warrant Officer Four from the United States Army Priority Air Transport detachment at Andrews AFB. The detachment operates A G-IV in Hawaii, A G-III at Ramstein Airbase in Germany and a G550, two GV's and some straight wing twin Cessnas from Andrews AFB.

GV

 

[wolfpackpilot]

A former Warrant Officer maybe?

It may be a shock, but I quit counting ex-Army guys at NJI after 10 or so.

You cant swing a dead cat down there without hitting a Chinook Pilot drinking coffee.

And uh, we Army guys dont have to play "mines bigger than yours" all the time.