Safety of regionals

[T-prop]

I see where your going with that, but a 1500 hour captain (where 500 or 1000 of that is piston single or twin time) pared with a 300 hour F/O (where 250 of that is piston single or twin time) is a bad idea. Im not a safety Nazi, but that seems bad.

I agree, 2500TT and/or 1000 crew/turbine should be the minimum for 121 Captain.

Mesa used to have a 2500 requirement. Along with other safety minded policies it quickly disappeared when staffing became an issue.

 

[T-prop]

At my last airline, FAA granted waivers for:

-green on green
-reduced IOE
-consolidation

FAA and company also approved a very reduced training program which consisted of:

- 8 days of systems (12 being the norm)
- 5 hrs of Cockpit Systems integration (16 being the norm)
- 7 sim sessions including checkride and LOFT (10 being the norm)

Other pertinent information:
- Chief Pilot was not typed in DHC8 and was completely and utterly useless when it came to operational and safety concerns regarding procedures.
- Company never before had operated the specific fleet type (DHC8-100).
- With few exceptions, all pilots were new-hires AND were new to DHC8
- Fleet averaged 40,000 hrs and were recently brought out of "retirement."
- No two aircraft were the same when it came to mods and other nuances
- Operated in the world's busiest airspace w/o FMS
- Contract Mx never received formal training on the fleet. (ex. lead mechanic did not know what an oil/fuel heat exchanger was). This contributed to numerous emergencies, and countless RTG's due to improper servicing and mx.
- Handful of street captains had no crew and/or turbine time.
- Company badgered ATP qualified new-hires into becoming captains. Many of which had never flown anything larger than a Seminole.

First flight off IOE first officer and Embry Riddle grad said to me, "Wow! this is the hardest IFR I have ever flown in."

It is amazing they haven't lost one yet... last flight is scheduled in Aug.

Oh, I forgot to add... we never received GPWS, TCAS, or any radar training. The newhire FO's will upgrade to CA without any formal training on any of those areas of operation. It was on the syllabus, but the instructor was limited on time.

I love Mesa logic. We are short of pilots so let's shorten the training to the legal minimum. Which only increases washout and re-train rate, not to mention cuts safety margins when the final products hit the line.

 

[CherryBomb]

Well in my humble opinion, I think the key to it all is PAY. These regionals just aren't gonna get experienced guys with any reasonable time with what they pay.

The fractionals haven't had too difficult a time filling classes with experienced pilots. This is because the fractionals actually pay a decent salary.

Picture a guy who has 2500 hours. Where do you go? To a regional and make 20k your first year, or a frac and make 45k your first year.


I guess you can call me Captain Obvious...

 

[doh]

Don't forget that along with the 401k match we have a 1% per year of service defined benefit pension, bonuses, and you get your days off right from the start. Nicer equipment too. There is no comparison in lifestyle.

 

[bluefishbeagle]

The only thing that will change things is smoking holes with passenger remains on national TV.

To the general public a pilot is a pilot is pilot and experience does not matter as long as they get a cheap ticket.

99% of them could care less if you ever get paid.

 

[ArcticFlier]

The only thing that will change things is smoking holes with passenger remains on national TV.

To the general public a pilot is a pilot is pilot and experience does not matter as long as they get a cheap ticket.

99% of them could care less if you ever get paid.

BAM!! Exactamundo..............

 

[bailey3083]

The NTSB will never cite "lack of experience" as a probable cause or even a casual factor. If the crew meets the minimums set by the FAA and the airline, it would be treated as any 20,000-hour crew having a wreck. Yes, folks, the regionals are in the armpit of aviation.

Dude lets go to 410!

NTSB did cite part of the problem was badly trained pilots and lack of experience.

Bailey

 

[Papps]

The only thing that will change things is smoking holes with passenger remains on national TV.

To the general public a pilot is a pilot is pilot and experience does not matter as long as they get a cheap ticket.

99% of them could care less if you ever get paid.

Yeah and if a lack of experience was the real killer in the accident, it will be sanitized by calling it "pilot error".

NTSB accidents are sanitized by saying something like

"the crew received adequate rest prior to departure" Translation, they had a maximum of 5 or 6 hours of sleep on a RR overnight, or a maximum of 3 or 4 hours on a CDO.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

The only thing that will change things is smoking holes with passenger remains on national TV.

To the general public a pilot is a pilot is pilot and experience does not matter as long as they get a cheap ticket.

99% of them could care less if you ever get paid.

Gotta disagree here. I think you should modify your statement to say the following:

The only thing that will get the public's attention is smoking holes on national TV, but even that won't change things. The American public has a very short memory, and thier "caring" is confined to bulleted items on the evening news.

No, I don't think even an accident would change much at all. In the end, the fact that you can travel from Ithaca to FLL for $179 RT is far more important than arriving technically alive. We have a society full of soccer moms (some of whom are quite hot, I might add) who drive SUVs full of kids 15 mph over the speed limit while chatting on there cellphones and sipping venti frappacinos with enough caffine to render a medium sized furry woodland creature dead. If the very tangible possibility of disaster here doesn't scare the public, then the abstract possibility of the pilots not having enough sleep or experience won't either.

The only things we can do as regional pilot's are:

1. Watch our own butts and don't die.

2. Don't let management push us around so we don't die.

3. Be a pain in the rump to our respective unions and tell them to change stuff so we don't die.

4. Oh yeah, and watch our own butts so we don't die... That's worth saying twice.

Safety culture is grassroots... It is only as good as the actions of the lowest man on the totem pole. Since airline management is never proactive, all change must begin with behavior changes at the lowest levels and work thier way up.

 

[deadstick]

Gotta disagree here. I think you should modify your statement to say the following:

The only thing that will get the public's attention is smoking holes on national TV, but even that won't change things. The American public has a very short memory, and thier "caring" is confined to bulleted items on the evening news.

No, I don't think even an accident would change much at all. In the end, the fact that you can travel from Ithaca to FLL for $179 RT is far more important than arriving technically alive. We have a society full of soccer moms (some of whom are quite hot, I might add) who drive SUVs full of kids 15 mph over the speed limit while chatting on there cellphones and sipping venti frappacinos with enough caffine to render a medium sized furry woodland creature dead. If the very tangible possibility of disaster here doesn't scare the public, then the abstract possibility of the pilots not having enough sleep or experience won't either.

The only things we can do as regional pilot's are:

1. Watch our own butts and don't die.

2. Don't let management push us around so we don't die.

3. Be a pain in the rump to our respective unions and tell them to change stuff so we don't die.

4. Oh yeah, and watch our own butts so we don't die... That's worth saying twice.

Safety culture is grassroots... It is only as good as the actions of the lowest man on the totem pole. Since airline management is never proactive, all change must begin with behavior changes at the lowest levels and work thier way up.

:laugh: How about those dolce, caffinated soccer moms! With an extra pump.

Seriously, just look at the fallout from the helo midair. Everybody is chatting about regulating ENG ops and adding a copilot. All it took was a crash with footage at 11.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Wait a month and see how much people are chatting about the news helos. My guess is it will all blow over.

We do one of two things in this country in response to shocking accidents/incidents. We either forget about them quickly or kneejerk into stupid ineffective responses (ala TSA).

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Issues I have seen lately.

1. Young Captains afraid to say no to bad fuel loads.
2. F/O's with little to no high speed aerodynamic or high altitude training.
3. Captains with above problem.
4. Regional airplanes running routes well outside of their "optimal" range. Meaning that if an alternate is needed a divert due to fuel is almost a given.
5. Younger Captains ignoring the planned speeds and running the A/C at near redline. Then landing and wondering why they are almost out of gas. Adds to problem #4
6. Several instances of Mach buffet (overspeed for the condition) while commuting or deadheading. When queried about it, in a nice conversational way, the crew was oblivious to the fact that it was airframe vibration instead of turbulence. See problem #2 Very obvious to most pilots with any amount of jet time. Remember metal fatigue is cumulitive.
7. Relying on automation too much, have seen several letting the airplane get further and further out of shape while farting around with the auto pilot trying to make it do what they want instead of just flying the freaking thing.
8. As a jumpseater I witnessed a Captain giving his F/O a hard time about this and that on the release, gave him a 5 minute dissertation on tail numbers, W/B issues, scolded him because he did not do the W/B fast enough etc. Then proceeded to launch into an area of thunderstorms without ever looking at wx or fuel load other than it matched what the release said. Passing through 15k he finally looked at his F/O and said "Hey did you happen to look at the wx at XXX?" (destination) He was so caught up in schooling his F/O that the guy forgot all about what his job as Captain was supposed to be. He couldn't even tell you if he needed an ALT since he didn't bother to look. (He needed it, but didn't have one) I have since marked that airline off my list for family travel or commuting.

There are issues that we need to address in the industry, however pay and QOL has got so bad that nobody seems to have time to look at safety. I am kind of surprised that we have been as accident free as we have. My guess is the glass cockpits have a lot to do with it.

Just an opinion.

 

[great cornholio]

There are issues that we need to address in the industry, however pay and QOL has got so bad that nobody seems to have time to look at safety. I am kind of surprised that we have been as accident free as we have. My guess is the glass cockpits have a lot to do with it.

Just an opinion.

I was in the sim a few months ago and was talking to the sim instructor about that. He was saying that the way the new hires are that he had been getting lately that its a good thing we don't fly turboprops anymore because these new guys would probably make a lot of turboprops fall out of the sky. But since we have so much automation on the EMB 145 that it has more than likely kept at least one accident from happening.

 

[DiverDriver]

The NTSB will never cite "lack of experience" as a probable cause or even a casual factor. If the crew meets the minimums set by the FAA and the airline, it would be treated as any 20,000-hour crew having a wreck. Yes, folks, the regionals are in the armpit of aviation.

This has already happened. Low time CA in type. Low time FO. At night at ROA. No, the NTSB did not out n out say low time caused this accident but it seems steeped in the body of the report.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20011030X02159&key=1

NTSB Identification: NYC02LA013.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of Mesa Airlines (D.B.A. US Airways Express)
Accident occurred Tuesday, October 16, 2001 in Roanoke, VA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 6/25/2003
Aircraft: Embraer 145LR, registration: N825MJ
Injuries: 33 Uninjured.

The captain briefed a "no go-around" for a night visual approach to a "Special Airport." The approach was not stabilized, and the airspeed decreased to the point of a stall. The airplane struck the runway in a nose high pitch attitude, on the aft fuselage, and settled on the landing gear. The first officer made initial callouts of slow airspeed and then stopped when the captain failed to respond to her callouts. After landing, the airplane was taxied to the gate where a post flight inspection limited to the main landing gear did not find the damage. When interviewed, the captain reported that she briefed "no go-around" because no takeoffs were authorized on the runway at night or in IMC conditions; however, the first officer knew this was incorrect, but did not challenge the captain. Both pilots had received CRM training, which included crewmember assertiveness, methods of fostering crew input, and situational awareness, and training on special use airports; however it was not followed by either pilot. The captain's handling of the airplane was outside the parameters specified in the company manuals. Both pilots were described to having good flying skills. The captain said the first officer was passive and quiet. The first officer reported the captain was defensive and did not take criticism very well. A definition of stabilized approach criteria was not found in the company manuals. An FAA Advisory Circular dated August 10, 2000 defined stabilized approach criteria, and actions to be taken if the approach was not stabilized.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
the captain's failure to maintain airspeed which resulted in an inadvertent stall/mush, and hard landing. Factors were the failure of both pilots to follow company CRM and flight manual procedures, and the captains improper approach briefing.

 

[CoAlpha]

classic story!! what happened to those two mesa girls?

 

[DiverDriver]

classic story!! what happened to those two mesa girls?

Someone correct me if I have this wrong but what happened after the hard landing was that the CA DID NOT write up a hard landing. Another crew showed to the plane in the morning and didn't see the 10 foot by 3 foot scrape on the belly of the tail. It flew to CLT where another crew did a preflight and said "WTF is this!"

 

[flyingfool]

Regional airlines are statistically much safer then major’s just because when they crash less people are killed. Simple mental math for pilots.

 

[Papps]

That would be an awsome company slogan for any regional

 

[flyburg]

Well,

IMVHO US trianing is some of the best in the world. An opinion that is often repeated by some of the very same posters here when it comes to foreign pilots and their inadequate training whenever there is an accident abroad. Then, all of the sudden the US system is the best ( and to stop all discussion right here, I think it is the CPL/IR isn't much but the 121 training is very good indeed)

I can't help but think that a lot of the expressions given here are a frustration about one's own difficulties about getting the job when jobs were not that easy to get.

To give a personal story, I got hired by a major regional in '95 right after a big hiring boom. I was at the tail end. Guys that hired 3 months before me made captain within a year, I had to wait 3 years. I got hired with 2500 hours including 500 ME flying for an on demand freight company. This one day(at band camp) I flew with this guy that got hired straight out of university just 3 months prior to me with 1200 hrs and he started giving me ******************** about how everybody had to pay their dues before making CPT!!!

There's are reason these topics only come up in the regional section.....frustration!!

Lighten up already

 

[wscrj]

And so it goes...

classic story!! what happened to those two mesa girls?

Ahhh...."Youngblood" at its finest, eh?