Safest Charter Companies

[psysicx]

I know that NJAowner said he chose that since it was safer then charter. Who would you consider the safest charter company?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

DAL, NWA, UAL and CAL all do charters....


sorry... just saying...

 

[X-Wind]

Who is the best Baseball, Basketball, Football Team?

The one with the best Record.


How long does "Best" last?

It doesn't...It's based on the last season or PAST record.

 

[say again]

The safest charter company?? Gimme a break. Our's is pretty damn safe, so are the other 3 companies I flew for.

 

[Rick1128]

Over all this portion of the aviation industry is reasonably safe. For extra comfort, I would look at companies that are AR/GUS and WyVern Gold Plus or Platinum. These are outside audit organizations that set a high store by safety management systems and internal audits.

However, it is important to keep in mind that you are dealing with complex machines with thousands of parts, weather and people. Put those three things together accidents are bound to happen, no matter if you are 121, 135, 91K or 91.

 

[timmay]

Over all this portion of the aviation industry is reasonably safe. For extra comfort, I would look at companies that are AR/GUS and WyVern Gold Plus or Platinum. These are outside audit organizations that set a high store by safety management systems and internal audits.

However, it is important to keep in mind that you are dealing with complex machines with thousands of parts, weather and people. Put those three things together accidents are bound to happen, no matter if you are 121, 135, 91K or 91.

Ahhh Argus and Wyvern the best audits money can buy.

 

[stupidpilot]

Over all this portion of the aviation industry is reasonably safe. For extra comfort, I would look at companies that are AR/GUS and WyVern Gold Plus or Platinum. These are outside audit organizations that set a high store by safety management systems and internal audits.

However, it is important to keep in mind that you are dealing with complex machines with thousands of parts, weather and people. Put those three things together accidents are bound to happen, no matter if you are 121, 135, 91K or 91.

ARGUS and the like is mostly smoke & mirrors. It has nothing to do with reality. It's more perception than anything. All it does is give an operator a pre-packaged safety program that frees him from the responsibility of having to develop his own. An operator is no more "safe" being ARGUS than not. It is more the philosophy of the operator and the company rather than some meaningless program.

 

[landlover]

Over all this portion of the aviation industry is reasonably safe. For extra comfort, I would look at companies that are AR/GUS and WyVern Gold Plus or Platinum. These are outside audit organizations that set a high store by safety management systems and internal audits.

i have a bridge for sale, it connects brooklyn and manhattan.

 

[satpak77]

I know that NJAowner said he chose that since it was safer then charter. Who would you consider the safest charter company?

how about quality of life and salary? how long till Capt upgrade?

 

[icefr8dawg]

ARGUS and the like is mostly smoke & mirrors. It has nothing to do with reality. It's more perception than anything. All it does is give an operator a pre-packaged safety program that frees him from the responsibility of having to develop his own. An operator is no more "safe" being ARGUS than not. It is more the philosophy of the operator and the company rather than some meaningless program.

couldn't agree with you more. A "platinum" operator just killed several in a hawker two months ago...how that company got the rating, well I think we all know how that worked.

 

[captaincaptain]

icefr8dawg
Are you referring to the accident at the end of July? Because, I don't believe the NTSB has found the cause of that accident. By your post it would appear that you already know it was the operator's fault. Could you elaborate or share the information you have?
Thanks

 

[AZ Typed]

This is simple. Who is running the show, as in...who is flying and maintaining the airplane. Look, ARGUS, WYVERN, NJ, whomever...it all comes down to who the hell is running the show on THAT individual airplane, their attitude, and YOUR attitude towards safety as an owner. NJ does a good job, and they package this fact in their sales pitch. But any operator, pilot, owner, etc...who "gets it" will be the safest. This is an easy answer to a question that people often overcomplicate.

AZ T

 

[icefr8dawg]

icefr8dawg
Are you referring to the accident at the end of July? Because, I don't believe the NTSB has found the cause of that accident. By your post it would appear that you already know it was the operator's fault. Could you elaborate or share the information you have?
Thanks

The Hawker accident, yes. Unfortunately, no I can't provide further information. However, as a member of the flying community around here I can say definitively that that particular operator did not "get it" Last I heard they lost a court battle with ARG/US and pilots lost jobs.
I've been part of the arg/us process. Having worked in another regulated industry with audits every quarter I think the arg/us process has holes in it and can be manipulated.
The big brokers and corporate departments want audited charter partners and supplemental lift so firms are forced into the model.
When my boss rides another aircraft the due dillagence performed goes beyond running an online report on an operator or pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

we are gold plus

Over all this portion of the aviation industry is reasonably safe. For extra comfort, I would look at companies that are AR/GUS and WyVern Gold Plus or Platinum. These are outside audit organizations that set a high store by safety management systems and internal audits.

However, it is important to keep in mind that you are dealing with complex machines with thousands of parts, weather and people. Put those three things together accidents are bound to happen, no matter if you are 121, 135, 91K or 91.

AR/GUS called us a Gold/Plus, we have never lost a passenger

 

[Publishers]

The Argus program is fine, the problem with it is that it is geared to larger charter operations with multiple crew options, and enough people to carry out the administrative process. The best thing about the process is your preparation for the audit. The people we had at our first audit do not want to spend anytime really looking but more go down the list and see if you do it their way.
Example, you have one Hawker 800 in your fleet and have two pilots who are dedicated to that aircraft. You do not have multiple choices to add to the risk matrix for a particular flight or airport. They talk about crew pairings but in the example, you have one.
Safety is just as much a culture as a program. The best charter company is one of any size where everyone understands that safety comes before all other considerations. The crews need to understand that and that regardless of their years of experience, the margins and procedures are there for a reason.

 

[pilotyip]

yes, but you have to document

The Argus program is fine, the problem with it is that it is geared to larger charter operations with multiple crew options, and enough people to carry out the administrative process. The best thing about the process is your preparation for the audit. The people we had at our first audit do not want to spend anytime really looking but more go down the list and see if you do it their way.
Example, you have one Hawker 800 in your fleet and have two pilots who are dedicated to that aircraft. You do not have multiple choices to add to the risk matrix for a particular flight or airport. They talk about crew pairings but in the example, you have one.
Safety is just as much a culture as a program. The best charter company is one of any size where everyone understands that safety comes before all other considerations. The crews need to understand that and that regardless of their years of experience, the margins and procedures are there for a reason.

When being inspected you have to produce documentation to show you are performing safety functions, things like Safety meeting minutes, Emergency Action plan drills, Investigative reports with findings and recommendations. It is a lot of paper work to prove that you are safe.

 

[boeing72]

I work for a AR/GUS Gold certified operator.

I can tell you that our operation is not at all organized or safe.

Yes we all go to Flight Safety once per year. Our captains have little or no jet time with no two person crew experience.

Our Ops Sec is very limited and no real procedures or stadardization.

AR/GUS is a joke, pay them money.

 

[captaincaptain]

AR/GUS Gold is nothing more than a background check. The auditors never look at your procedures. AR/GUS Gold plus is those who get audited and can't achieve the "Best Business Practices". AR/GUS Platinum is much more stringent. You can't just pencil whip your documents to get the Platinum rating. It still doesn't mean that they are never going to have an accident. It just means they have policies and procedures to greatly reduce the likelihood of an accident. You can be the safest driver in the world and still have an accident on the road. Sometimes there are circumstances beyond our control. You just need to do EVERYTHING you can to increase the safety.

 

[pilotyip]

Not my experience

AR/GUS Gold is nothing more than a background check. The auditors never look at your procedures. AR/GUS Gold plus is those who get audited and can't achieve the "Best Business Practices". AR/GUS Platinum is much more stringent. You can't just pencil whip your documents to get the Platinum rating. It still doesn't mean that they are never going to have an accident. It just means they have policies and procedures to greatly reduce the likelihood of an accident. You can be the safest driver in the world and still have an accident on the road. Sometimes there are circumstances beyond our control. You just need to do EVERYTHING you can to increase the safety.

They spend 4 hours with me, dug through everything I had, very pointed questions. Good advice on how to make it better. In all they were in our building 3 days.

 

[ksu_aviator]

They spend 4 hours with me, dug through everything I had, very pointed questions. Good advice on how to make it better. In all they were in our building 3 days.

They do do that. The problem is that paperwork can say what ever the author wants it too. I worked for a charter company that was platinum. I gaurantee you that at the end of every trip, the paper work was golden. No glaring issues ever made it to the archived paper work. Yet, many repairs where signed off, but not complete and much of the training was very forgiving. Those practices probably continue today. Until they have an accident, no one will ever care and they will not get caught.

The point is, until a company has an accident or some one blows the whistle, AR/GUS will never be able to come up with anything substantial on any company. The dirty little secret is that anyone can find what AR/GUS finds. All they can find is accidents and violations and that is on the FAAs website. Maybe, on occasion, they'll find something that the FAA didn't know. But, that is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Publishers]

There is no question that anything, anything at all, that causes you to look at safety issues is a good thing. I gave a scenario at one test run where the aircraft was missing in a foreign country, when found there were more bodies than had been on board, etcc. It was eye opening.
On the other hand, the audit was as good as the people doing it. Mine were 121 guys and that is how they thouught. It looked to me that they looked at the books and information and wrote the report before the interviews. We paid for their program and passed. I was not impressed except for the quarterly internal audits.

 

[brokeflyer]

id have to say that Netjets is the safest......so far.

 

[Fly91]

ARGUS and WYVERN....kind of a joke. Safety mainly boils down to the pilots at a given company, not the office people, paperwork and aircraft. If maintenance is good and the planes are good of course. Since almost 100% of accidents is "pilot error", a company is only as safe as the quality of their pilots. AND...since pilots come and go like the wind in the 135 charter industry, each company is all the same when it comes to safety. OR....a 135 charter company can only be as safe as their chief pilot/check airmen to make sure the quality of their pilots is top notch 100% of the time.

There's a charter company down here (still operating unbelievably) in south Florida that had just 3-4 planes back in 2000 and had only been in business for just 1 1/2 years and had 2 crashes, both with multiple fatalities.

Then there's another charter company (still in business and doing great) down here that has 16 planes and has been in operation for 28 years without so much as a complaint from a passenger or the FAA, much less an incident or accident. Same owner, chief pilot and DO the entire time....that should tell you something about pilot quality that goes through that company.

Safety = pilot quality

Not some organization saying they're any good.

 

[pilotyip]

Narrow View, more to it

ARGUS and WYVERN....kind of a joke. Safety mainly boils down to the pilots at a given company, not the office people, paperwork and aircraft. If maintenance is good and the planes are good of course. Since almost 100% of accidents is "pilot error", a company is only as safe as the quality of their pilots. AND...since pilots come and go like the wind in the 135 charter industry, each company is all the same when it comes to safety. OR....a 135 charter company can only be as safe as their chief pilot/check airmen to make sure the quality of their pilots is top notch 100% of the time.

There's a charter company down here (still operating unbelievably) in south Florida that had just 3-4 planes back in 2000 and had only been in business for just 1 1/2 years and had 2 crashes, both with multiple fatalities.

Then there's another charter company (still in business and doing great) down here that has 16 planes and has been in operation for 28 years without so much as a complaint from a passenger or the FAA, much less an incident or accident. Same owner, chief pilot and DO the entire time....that should tell you something about pilot quality that goes through that company.

Safety = pilot quality

Not some organization saying they're any good.

Not a complete answer, pilots can not do it alone, a good safety record comes from a combination of management, pilots, maint, dispatch and ramp. Pilots alone are not the sole source of safety. If they do not work toward the same goal, then the results will be unsatisfactory. How do quality pilots get selected for an operation? Management picks them. A good organization can attract a higher quality of pilots. Good pilots with other option don't go to shady operators. What makes a shady operator management? So management is as much a part of a good safety record as the workers to make it work. It is a team effort, and that is why SMS mandates upper level management involvement in safety.

 

[Fly91]

Not a complete answer, pilots can not do it alone, a good safety record comes from a combination of management, pilots, maint, dispatch and ramp. Pilots alone are not the sole source of safety. If they do not work toward the same goal, then the results will be unsatisfactory. How do quality pilots get selected for an operation? Management picks them. A good organization can attract a higher quality of pilots. Good pilots with other option don't go to shady operators. What makes a shady operator management? So management is as much a part of a good safety record as the workers to make it work. It is a team effort, and that is why SMS mandates upper level management involvement in safety.

You just agreed with me. If the management is GOOD, they will choose GOOD pilots. However a BAD pilot gets into a good or badly managed company isn't important....what is important is that they DO get in.....then accidents happen to good and bad companies.

Pilots (via pilot error) are the leading cause of accidents, and always will be. Thats all I'm saying. It cannot be argued with. Accidents don't normally happen because a wing falls off or a mountain suddenly pops up in front of the plane.

When ARGUS or some other organization goes through a company they just see that the pilots go to school, they have no clue that there might be some horrible pilots at that company. Anyone can get through school, especially recurrent. Thats all they have to go by. So if the front office is nice and neat and looks pretty, they get a GOLD rating...wonderful.

 

[hooker]

DAL, NWA, UAL and CAL all do charters....


sorry... just saying...

OBAMA! Are you for real???? He is the #*@#*#@ answer huh? Then explain why my company has had customers call and say if that COMMUNIST gets elected you wont here from us for a while!!! Explain the single biggest post election stock market PLUNGE in history? Huh Explain that one!!!!! Somebody take his keyboard away!

 

[njcapt]

OBAMA! Are you for real???? He is the #*@#*#@ answer huh? Then explain why my company has had customers call and say if that COMMUNIST gets elected you wont here from us for a while!!! Explain the single biggest post election stock market PLUNGE in history? Huh Explain that one!!!!! Somebody take his keyboard away!

Did you just go off your meds? If not, its kind of early to be ******************** faced.

You respond to a three month old post in a thread about safety and you drag presidential politics into it? You would be much happier trolling threads in the Non-Aviation Chat forum. I'll help you out since you seem lost - it's here.

 

[badlander45]

OBAMA! Are you for real???? He is the #*@#*#@ answer huh? Then explain why my company has had customers call and say if that COMMUNIST gets elected you wont here from us for a while!!! Explain the single biggest post election stock market PLUNGE in history? Huh Explain that one!!!!! Somebody take his keyboard away!

Maybe your companies customers are mental midgets, such as yourself?

 

[osy007]

Jetride

Jetride is the safest charter company now....

They will never ever have an incident or accident.

 

[stupidpilot]

Jetride is the safest charter company now....

They will never ever have an incident or accident.

Ouch! That's just plain MEAN!