rumors from both NWA and DAL about 717

[skystud25]

717 Huh? Well, it would be better to be displaced into one of those than a DC-9. Bring em' on!

 

[scarlet]

Transcon and Intl cost a company alot of money !!!

 

[scarlet]

yeah you guys think the new DL will keep over 12,000 pilots?

Do you guys think DL is going to fly over 1500 aircraft? That is with all the DCI Carriers?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

No I don't. However, I think that the largest fleet reductions will come from the small lift, ie crj,embs but offset with adding 76 seaters up to the cap. Who flys those is the question. And I don't mean us or outsourced. That is a given. I mean a probable shrinking of comair and growing of peanuckle, mesabi, compost or even throwing republic into the mix. The one thing the mainline has going for it is at least we will have some retirements in the first few years(my guess is about half to 3/4s of the guys will not go to 65) followed by alot of retirements once we get past the first 5 years and normal retirements kick in.

yeah you guys think the new DL will keep over 12,000 pilots?

Do you guys think DL is going to fly over 1500 aircraft? That is with all the DCI Carriers?

 

[likeitis]

Each "unit" is made up of pilots that want their airline to succeed. This means other airlines wont succeed. It's the free market. There is no job guarantee in any industry even heavily unionized industries.

How would you handle the pilots of a dying airline that is selling its aircraft or goes chapter 7 or is no longer competitive and must shrink.

Pretty easy. The plumbers, steamfitters and insulators in my family seem to be a little more intelligent than this "pilot". They put everyone on the "bench" in seniority order and when a job is available at one of the union shops, of which 90+% are union, the most senior person gets it. From my observation the companies like airlines don't shut down because of lack of work, its because of piss poor management. The tradesmen are almost always picked up immediately by another company. My brother was layed off about 2 months ago (the company went under because the owners gambling habit) and he had calls from other companies in exactly 12 minutes. How is this done? The union immediately called every employer and notified them that he along with others were being layed off. The people on the bench can't push junior people out of their job but when a job is available the job goes to the most senior tradesmen who is available to work.

This would never happen with us because ALPA is spineless and only cares for it's image. They are handcuffed by always following the law and ethics in an environment where their adversary doesn't play by the rules. Well folks this isn't a after school special where the good guy always wins.

 

[flying zephyr]

actually they are going to 99 seats unless you know something I don't. 40 business and 59 "coach". It will be interesting to say the least. apparently they thought adding an extra flt attendnt wasn't worth the cost of more seats???

 

[vprMatrix]

Pretty easy. The plumbers, steamfitters and insulators in my family seem to be a little more intelligent than this "pilot". They put everyone on the "bench" in seniority order and when a job is available at one of the union shops, of which 90+% are union, the most senior person gets it. From my observation the companies like airlines don't shut down because of lack of work, its because of piss poor management. The tradesmen are almost always picked up immediately by another company. My brother was layed off about 2 months ago (the company went under because the owners gambling habit) and he had calls from other companies in exactly 12 minutes. How is this done? The union immediately called every employer and notified them that he along with others were being layed off. The people on the bench can't push junior people out of their job but when a job is available the job goes to the most senior tradesmen who is available to work.

Thats great if other airlines are hiring. Not much of that going on right now.

I have a brother-in-law who is an electrician and member of the union. When he works he has great pay and benefits. Unfortunantly, he only gets work about 4 months a year. The rest of the year he must come up with something else to do.

Sucks being junior. He also doesn't have to go through 2 months of training every time he changes companies.

Can you imagine being a junior pilot under your system? You would just go from one furlough to the next.

It is alredy standard practice at most ALPA carriers to do whatever posible to promote the hiring of fuloughed ALPA pilots. The problem, again, is that when airlines are furloughing the others usually aren't hiring.

To make what you want work you will need a national contract and seniority list. What gun do you think we can hold to every airline management's head to accomplish this task? How much collective bargaining power would be given up to get this and for how long would these concessions last?

How much chance of a strike would exist under this utopia? It is already hard to get the government to not interfere with a strike. Every future contract would end in arbertration.

 

[likeitis]

Thats great if other airlines are hiring. Not much of that going on right now.

I have a brother-in-law who is an electrician and member of the union. When he works he has great pay and benefits. Unfortunantly, he only gets work about 4 months a year. The rest of the year he must come up with something else to do.

Sucks being junior. He also doesn't have to go through 2 months of training every time he changes companies.

Can you imagine being a junior pilot under your system? You would just go from one furlough to the next.

It is alredy standard practice at most ALPA carriers to do whatever posible to promote the hiring of fuloughed ALPA pilots. The problem, again, is that when airlines are furloughing the others usually aren't hiring.

To make what you want work you will need a national contract and seniority list. What gun do you think we can hold to every airline management's head to accomplish this task? How much collective bargaining power would be given up to get this and for how long would these concessions last?


How much chance of a strike would exist under this utopia? It is already hard to get the government to not interfere with a strike. Every future contract would end in arbertration.

Again, these airlines don't follow the law and we are why? To be the bigger man or professional? Sorry that doesn't put food on the table. Do you think the tradesmen have what they have by following the rules? Too many pilots and ALPA get wrapped up in image. Lets face it we are blue collar grunts who do a job that few people can or want to do and thus should be paid accordingly.

Many pilots already are going from furlough to furlough. How many pilots in NWA's, Hawiian or Delta's most recent classes have been furloughees? If this was a real union it would be 100%. What happened to Prater's "when one pilot has a problem all pilots have a problem" bs. I think a furlough would go under the classification of a problem. If nonfurloughed pilots are getting hired at ALPA carriers I think it's wrong and if non-ALPA members are getting hired at ALPA carriers while ALPA brothers are jobless then I think it shameful. If it takes negoatiation capital on my part to make the company hire furloughed ALPA brothers so be it.

 

[vprMatrix]

Again, these airlines don't follow the law and we are why? To be the bigger man or professional? Sorry that doesn't put food on the table. Do you think the tradesmen have what they have by following the rules? Too many pilots and ALPA get wrapped up in image. Lets face it we are blue collar grunts who do a job that few people can or want to do and thus should be paid accordingly.

Many pilots already are going from furlough to furlough. How many pilots in NWA's, Hawiian or Delta's most recent classes have been furloughees? If this was a real union it would be 100%. What happened to Prater's "when one pilot has a problem all pilots have a problem" bs. I think a furlough would go under the classification of a problem. If nonfurloughed pilots are getting hired at ALPA carriers I think it's wrong and if non-ALPA members are getting hired at ALPA carriers while ALPA brothers are jobless then I think it shameful. If it takes negoatiation capital on my part to make the company hire furloughed ALPA brothers so be it.

So you propose hiring any furloughed pilot ahead of a more qualified pilot who has more years of service at another airline including ALPA carriers. The fastest way to a good job would be to go to a week carrier get furloughed and go to your dream job at Airline X.


I like it. Sign me up.


What is the average education level of your "blue collar grunt?" I guess that is why they are so willing to break the law and not follow the "rules." I suppose they aren't qualified enough to get another job in the same field or another due to their education. It is good that they don't have to be the bigger man or, god forbid, a professional. That might screw up having to obey the rules.


Keep up the good work though. Get enough support for your cause and be willing to break some rules and who knows you may get somewhere.

 

[funnyman12]

Coincidentally I had an FAA maintenance inspector on the jumpseat today. He confirmed the ruumor of Airtran seeking to add 25 717's to our certificate. He said Boeing won't formally negotiate until Midwest declared ch11 or 7. Mentioned a price of just under 10 million a piece. Apparently Boeing very much wants us to fly.

 

[FlyWolf]

Midwest will never declare ch11 or 7, for 25 years Midwest was never late on a single bill, Seabury (the restructuring company hired by TPG) asked Midwest to stop paying bills on time. Its a well known business trick when someone trying to get better rates from their vendors.

I personally think that Midwest is being re-aligned to eventually become a regional carrier for the new DAL/NWA. Delta wants a good product to replace some of the less desirable regional service they have currently <--- straight from a DAL ALPA officer mouth.

 

[General Lee]

Midwest will never declare ch11 or 7, for 25 years Midwest was never late on a single bill, Seabury (the restructuring company hired by TPG) asked Midwest to stop paying bills on time. Its a well known business trick when someone trying to get better rates from their vendors.

I personally think that Midwest is being re-aligned to eventually become a regional carrier for the new DAL/NWA. Delta wants a good product to replace some of the less desirable regional service they have currently <--- straight from a DAL ALPA officer mouth.

We have scope preventing planes over 76 seats flying for us, unless it is a limited code share, and even there we have limits. Sorry, I just don't think it will happen other than a very limited Code Share. That DALPA officer would be voted out of office quickly if he brought that up in the crew lounge.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyWolf]

General, only time will tell

 

[flying zephyr]

General,

didn't you(DAL) already sign a side letter to let Midwest operate separately, wouldn't all the scope and seats go along with that letter?

 

[FlyWolf]

General,

didn't you(DAL) already sign a side letter to let Midwest operate separately, wouldn't all the scope and seats go along with that letter?

They did, and they got paid for it.
That is why I say only time will tell

Edit: please remember that person (General Lee) only speaks of what he thinks should happen, he doesn't speak for the entire DALPA pilot group.

 

[tbkane]

The key to that is what you posted operate separately. If Mid Ex started to carry DAL passengers then the scope would kick in. The only way around that would be a code share. If a DAL rep said that I would love to know the name because I would call them out. General speaks for a lot more of us than you may think.

 

[Quimby]

Are they going to do anything to increase the 717's range? I thought it was realistically a 1,200nm jet. For comparison the 737-700 is 5,500 miles. Wouldn't replacing the 737 limit AirTran's ability to fly trans-con's out of Atlanta?

Seems like it would be straightforward to add fuel capacity using the MD80's configuration, and I know there was talk of a 717-300 before Boeing pulled the plug on Long Beach.

The 717 is a nice product for the pax. IFE would make it a better product for longer legs.

the 737-700ER might do 5500 miles........no way on the standard 700.....with a fuel stop maybe.

 

[FlyWolf]

The key to that is what you posted operate separately. If Mid Ex started to carry DAL passengers then the scope would kick in. The only way around that would be a code share. If a DAL rep said that I would love to know the name because I would call them out. General speaks for a lot more of us than you may think.

Ok dude, good for you and the general.....just for the record....I just said what I heard, I couldn't care less either way, good luck to both the Delta and the Midwest guys.

 

[tbkane]

OK Dude???

Go back and fly your rj leave the negotating and contract regulation to DALPA. I have a lot of friends at Mid Ex and I live in MKE so I don't want to see them go away. Their management should be ashamed of themselves. It makes Leo Mullin era look like a dream.

 

[TV9Driver]

uh...FlyWolf is not an rj guy, he flys for Midex... probably one of the classiest guys on this board - he remained very level headed during our whole AirTran/Midex merger stuff.