Rumor... NJA... Rumor

[illinipilot]

Again, there is no cap in points using the company GE card effective Jan 1, 2008 if the TA passes.

Cheers

 

[buckeyes95]

We also were told by the union that it should go away. I'm tired of hearing about the fact that we knew about the gateways. Since we knew, we should just hope that the company will one day change it to be nice? We shouldn't act to improve our QOL and most importantly pay? We should just sit back and continue to struggle to get by? This pre/post contract issue is a cancer to the union. If it doesn't change, the next time around will be very ugly. In my opinion, the company will smell the blood in the water and use it to divide the union. Yeah, there are some drawbacks to the contract. But, everyone is getting a nice raise, and we keep our company paid health care. The mechcanics had to give that up. If the contract goes to 2016, it means we have gained job security and advancement options through the intergration of NJI. Otherwise, I feel we will continue to be in a zero growth mode as the new orders go to NJI/NJE. Of course everyone has to vote what they think is best for them.

 

[netjetwife]

Dump ERISA!

Good post Buck! I agree with you, and would like to add that there is a signing bonus: $150 per month on property, caps out at 25K. I'd also like to reiterate what you have said about the retirement insurance needing to go away. It does! That advice was given by lawyers advising 1108 during IBB. Sad to say, its a scam and the idea of protection is an illusion. Many retirees are bogged down in litigation because the system is a nightmare. BO mentioned ERISA and the fact that most pilots are uneducated about the retiree insurance plan. Admittedly, I was as well so I have taken steps to correct that and would like to share what I've learned. It's a mistake to think it lasts a lifetime. It's only a bridge until Medicare kicks in and it often ends at the courthouse... Those most affected are grandfathered in, but I don't envy them that. Far better to take the company's 50% match for the "catch up" provision in the 401K which starts at age 50. That will be the replacement "plan" and we should all be grateful that the money will be there when we need it at retirement. Please google ERISA medical and see for yourself why you should be thankful for the Union's warning, here's some data to get you started---

Frequently Asked Questions - ERISA Governed Claim Denials

Q1: What Exactly Is ERISA?

A1: ERISA is an acronym for the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. The body of ERISA law includes the federal statute 29 USC. 1001, et seq.; the federal regulations; and the "common law" (decisional law of the federal courts). ERISA was originally intended to address issues related to pension fund administration; however, today -- primarily as the result of federal judicial decisions over the past two decades -- ERISA controls or impacts practically all employee benefits in the private sector, including employer-sponsored health and disability insurance plans.

Q2: How does ERISA affect me?

A2: If you are a "plan participant", or a dependent, enrolled in an ERISA-governed "employee welfare benefit plan", ERISA has a very direct and profound effect upon your rights to receive plan benefits.

Q3: What is an "Employee Welfare Benefit Plan"?

A3: Practically speaking, an "employee welfare benefit plan" is any plan of benefits provided by an employer in the private sector to an employee, including employer-sponsored medical and disability insurance coverage.

Q4: Doesn't ERISA protect my right to receive benefits under my medical or disability plan?

A4: Yes, to an extent, but the protections of ERISA are rather obscure and minimal. Although ERISA proclaims to give employees greater rights and protections, ERISA has actually stripped employees of many of their rights, particularly as against insurance companies who underwrite and/or administer medical or disability plans. The biggest problem is that the federal ERISA law pre-empts important state consumer insurance laws, relating to group medical or disability insurance, while at the same time there are no federal consumer insurance laws. Thus, by structuring practically all employer-sponsored insurance plans as "employee welfare benefit plans" under ERISA, the insurance industry has, in a very ingenious way, carved out the single greatest immunity from civil liability ever devised.

Q5: If my insurance company wrongfully denies my claim for benefits, can't I sue the insurance company for "bad faith" and get punitive damages?

A5: No. Not if your plan is governed by ERISA. The federal ERISA law pre-empts most state "Bad faith" lawsuits (and punitive damages) and there are no punitive damages available under ERISA, no matter how oppressive an insurance company’s tactics and no matter how frivolous an insurance company’s claim denial.

http://members.aol.com/mmckuin/FAQs-page1.html

I found the above information toward the bottom of page 4 in google results after typing in ERISA medical. The previous entries all appeared to be lawsuit information--not what I expected! Typically, the only ones who actually appear to be benefiting are the lawyers and the insurance companies--certainly not the consumers who are bogged down in legal fights. NJ pilots should be thankful that 1108 is looking out for your long-term interest. Dumping ERISA now can save you money and headaches in the future.
Good Luck!
NJW

 

[Diesel]

Are you selling this thing to us njwife?

 

[Go Fly]

Medical Benefits

We also were told by the union that it should go away. I'm tired of hearing about the fact that we knew about the gateways. Since we knew, we should just hope that the company will one day change it to be nice? We shouldn't act to improve our QOL and most importantly pay? We should just sit back and continue to struggle to get by? This pre/post contract issue is a cancer to the union. If it doesn't change, the next time around will be very ugly. In my opinion, the company will smell the blood in the water and use it to divide the union. Yeah, there are some drawbacks to the contract. But, everyone is getting a nice raise, and we keep our company paid health care. The mechcanics had to give that up. If the contract goes to 2016, it means we have gained job security and advancement options through the intergration of NJI. Otherwise, I feel we will continue to be in a zero growth mode as the new orders go to NJI/NJE. Of course everyone has to vote what they think is best for them.

Buckeye,

Did you miss my above post? We are not keeping our company paid medical benefits. By signing this IBB we are giving the company the right to take that away from us. The current CBA protects us from this. I'm not talking about the retirement medical benefits. This is the active pilot benefits!

Secondly, this is not that great of a pay raise over the life of the contract. Why? Because the amendable date is way to far away. I was upset about the 2013 date and then when I learned about the 2016 provision I completely lost interest in the IBB. Sure, under the current conditions, we would be some of the highest paid pilots in the industry. But, historically speaking, over the life of a five year contract, the highest paid pilots generally fall into the middle of the pack as other pilot groups renegotiate their rates. Remember, the majors are growing rapidly and those pilots will begin asking for more money over the next few years. Yes, I believe the pay rates they have negotiated in the IBB are very good. However, I don't know how good those rates are going to be in 2013 much less in 2016. We should have the right to renegotiate these rates by at least 2012. As it stands now it is feasible that we could go through two new CBAs before this IBB would even become amendable. The current CBA is amendable in 2010 and if that one got signed then we would more than likely be doing another one in 2015. Before you start telling me that negotiations take longer than that and it could be 2012 before we actually got a new CBA, keep in mind that also applies to the IBB, which means we could have to live with this thing for more than 10 years.

Extending the contract to 2016 does not provide us with any job security. Integrating the seniority lists provides some scope protection but that's not job security. It's funny how confident the union seemed to be in integrating the seniority lists pior to IBB but then, all of a suddendly, we need to buy it from the company by signing an 8 1/2 year deal. And, keep in mind, the IBB is giving our senior pilots and the NJI guys a pay decrease!

And, just to let you know, the raise I would receive in this IBB could be as high as $50,000 a year since I should be upgrading in the next few months. This is an extremely difficult decision for me and my family.

The reasons I don't like the IBB:

1. Length of contract
2. Possible loss of paid medical benefits
3. Flush bid

Unfortunately, the only good I see in the agreement for my family is the pay increase. I'm afraid it just isn't enough to overcome the cons. Since I haven't been here all that long the signing bonus isn't anywhere near significant enough to sway my opinion.

I am hoping that the Union leadership will start speaking up and turn me into a yes vote but so far that hasn't happened.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Go,

These seniments are being echoed by quite a few people who may not post on the Union board but who will speak loudly when they vote.

Someone had better sell this thing hard before I change my mind. The potential lose of some of the medical benefits may translate into a pay cut when are is said and done.

But at least the post-ratters don't have to drive as far.

 

[buckeyes95]

NJwife, I never said anything about the need for the retiree health care needing to go away.

 

[buckeyes95]

I reread the heath care section, and it looks the same as we have currently. Even under the present CBA, it looks like we would have to pay if non bargaining employee groups had to. The "flush bid" , I'm not happy about, but that pretty much is the standard in aviation. At least it we be a preferential bidding process.

 

[CA1900]

Did you miss my above post? We are not keeping our company paid medical benefits. By signing this IBB we are giving the company the right to take that away from us.

From the 2005 CBA currently in effect:

24.1 Medical, Vision, and Dental Insurance
...Effective January 1, 2006, all pilots covered under this Agreement shall be transferred to the Group Medical, Vision, and Dental Plans that the Company provides to non-bargaining employees. ... When pilots are transferred to the Company Group Medical, Vision, and Dental plans they shall be afforded coverage at the cost (if any) and benefit levels provided to non-bargaining unit employees.



In other words, if the other employees pay toward the premiums, so will we. The only protection the current CBA provides is the option for a fixed amount of money towards a union-sponsored medical plan, and those amounts won't buy anywhere close to the insurance we have now. So honestly, there's no real loss there.

 

[Go Fly]

Dang it!

It appears I was grossly misinformed regarding our current benefits and the CBA. But I suppose I can be big enough to admit when I am wrong. How 'bout just mistaken?

OK so there's one con going away. See I'm starting to be swayed already. Let's see if anyone can convince me that the longevity of the deal is really a good thing for us. I haven't seen anything from the Union yet that is making me warm and fuzzy about an 8 1/2 year contract!

Thanks for correcting me on the insurance thing guys.

 

[niteflyr]

Flush bid - Junior guys hate it, senior guys love it. Seniority is something that has not meant much in the current CBA, and I think this is intended to correct it.

Contract length - This is a glass half full or half empty sort of thing. If business keeps booming until 2016 we could be losing some pay increases. If things level off or dip a bit, we are protected with a decent pay scale for 9 years.
It all depends on how we choose to view it. I personally will take any money offered now and do my own work with it to make it grow for the future.

Glad to see the insurance thing was not a new problem, you did scare me with that one!

 

[bosdrx]

From a newbie.... Whats the flush bid all about? Something about an NJA/NJI merger? How would it affect the most junior on the list?

 

[netjetwife]

ERISA is an illusion---

NJwife, I never said anything about the need for the retiree health care needing to go away.

My apologies, Buck, for misunderstanding your post. When you said "We also were told by the union that it should go away". I was thinking of the retirement health coverage that had been previously discussed in the thread as it is the Union's position (based on legal advice) that because of ERISA the company plan should be avoided. I urge those currently paying for employer-sponsored retirement health coverage to research ERISA for themselves and make alternative plans. The problems associated with ERISA are well known in the legal arena. My reaction would be the same regardless of IBB. The only connection between the two is that my husband was in the room when the lawyers advised 1108 leaders that ERISA is seriously flawed. ERISA is an illusion; remove the mask and the ugliness is readily apparent.

Passing on important information,
Netjetwife

PS As always I find it appalling that many frac pilots are so poorly paid that they have difficulties providing for their current needs, much less their future ones. Good luck to all of you seeking fair wages!

 

[learflyer]

Dang, you guys will never be happy no matter what kind of contract you sign! You'll bich and whine for thirty years and before you know it it'll be the end of your careers, and you didn't enjoy the ride. Stop trying to push your luck with this union $hit! Yes, i'm pro-union.

 

[McLovin]

I agree with LearFlyer. Stop the complaints. This will not only improve Netjets Pilots paycheck, but the whole private aviation sector. Even the mom and pop charter outfit should see some benefits. It did when the CBA signed in 2005, why not now too.

Just a flightinfo's newbie 2 cents!

 

[netjetwife]

Please don't include me in that assessment LF. The sentiment, as well as the gender, would be wrong. My family views the TA as a good deal for the pilot group.

 

[netjetwife]

From a newbie.... Whats the flush bid all about? Something about an NJA/NJI merger? How would it affect the most junior on the list?

It has nothing to do with a merger, per say. It refers to awarding a pilot's schedule by seniority-- which is commonplace in aviation. The good news is that your chances of getting your choice increase with seniority. The best news if the TA passes is your significant pay raise and the opportunity to choose from 100 bases. Good luck! If you get the deal you deserve it should take the sting out of a schedule you might not want until you can hold the one you do.

 

[jonjuan]

It has nothing to do with a merger, per say. It refers to awarding a pilot's schedule by seniority-- which is commonplace in aviation. The good news is that your chances of getting your choice increase with seniority. The best news if the TA passes is your significant pay raise and the opportunity to choose from 100 bases. Good luck! If you get the deal you deserve it should take the sting out of a schedule you might not want until you can hold the one you do.

What happens when growth stops or goes backward in the industry and relative seniority does the same thing? You refer to the good news and best news. What about the bad news as it pertains to future stagnant seniority?

 

[netjetwife]

....OK so there's one con going away. See I'm starting to be swayed already. Let's see if anyone can convince me that the longevity of the deal is really a good thing for us. I haven't seen anything from the Union yet that is making me warm and fuzzy about an 8 1/2 year contract!....

Start with SCOPE: read job security and the opportunity for NJA pilots to fly internationally as opposed to all of those flights being done by NJI and NJE. Those who follow closely are very pleased with this development. Add excellent benefits locked in for 8 years, along with the guarantee of good wages (with COLA) and a signing bonus worth thousands of dollars depending on your seniority. That is money now that might not be acquired when the current contract becomes amendable. Potential risks: In 2010 will the Union be led by a group as talented as SU with volunteers as dedicated as those that worked on IBB? ( just because burn-out isn't discussed doesn't mean it isn't a problem). Will the same favorable economic and cultural climate pilots now enjoy with the company be there in the future? Prior to the 2005 CBA profits poured into NJE were not made available to NJA pilots. This is your chance to lock in a good deal before the parent company again turns their attention away. If you turn down the company's fair offer now how accommodating will they be in 2010?? Human nature says not much. How much money will be left on the table? Let's see...a 5 yr 7&7 Captain would miss out on $128,163 and one on the reserve would leave behind $178,423. The lowest paid 7&7 pilot would lose $158,800 and the new hires on the reserve would be denied $221,740. The difference between the CBA and the TA are substantial and could mean a huge QOL increase for many NJ pilots and their families. In addition: the pre-rat pilots would gain 95 bases; the post-ratters would see HBA binding language not in the CBA; all would be offered an additional schedule choice; all could make more money by selling back PTO days at 110% and pilots turning 50 yrs old will be given a 50% matching "catch up" contribution to their 401K to help plan a secure retirement--a better deal than those nearing retirement currently have.

I think Union leaders are counting on the NJ pilots being able to recognize a good deal when they see one. Maybe they are so well versed in contract issues that all the info seems intuitive to them? Perhaps they believe they have already proven their ability to lead the pilots in the right direction? Could it be that the same group who worked on the current contract so many are satisfied with think they have earned a vote of confidence and are just taking a well deserved break before going out to meet the pilots and answer their questions? I know my husband can't believe that any NJ pilot viewing the contract as a whole will not see the merit in it. To him the condition the company must meet to extend the contract is well worth it. Sure sounds to me like the two sides worked out a fair exchange during IBB. NJW

 

[Go Fly]

Lear, you couldn't be more wrong.

Dang, you guys will never be happy no matter what kind of contract you sign! You'll bich and whine for thirty years and before you know it it'll be the end of your careers, and you didn't enjoy the ride. Stop trying to push your luck with this union $hit! Yes, i'm pro-union.

Man do you have this one wrong lear. I'm about as happy as I can be with my job. Happiness is exactly what the problem is. I think the majority of pilots at NetJets are perfectly happy with the current CBA and their overall QOL and job. I don't see any reason to change the current conract at all as it pertains to me and my family. We are doing just fine right now plus I am close to upgrade so we'll be doing even better then.

So what are you saying? Should we all just paint a big smile on our faces, wag our tails, roll over and play dead because the union leaders say we should? Should we kiss Santulli's ring, bend over and take whatever crap he wants to cram in because he throws a little money our way?

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the IBB but in my opinion the company is getting much more out of it than the majority of the pilots are. The only pilots that are getting a huge benefit from it are the post rat guys. Do they deserve a break? Absolutely. But that can't come at the expense of the majority of the pilot group. In fact, for all the post rat guys that will be getting a big raise there are very senior guys who will be taking a pay cut over the length of the contract.

Now, all that being said, I think it is a fairly substantial pay increase for most of the pilot group. Enough in fact to convince me to overlook most of the cons. The only thing I can't get past is the term of the contract. I have never seen a contract longer than five years that was any good. Even five years is a little long just ask the guys that fought for the current CBA and the pilots at ASA how long their five years turned in to.

All the union has to do is convince me that the longevity of the contract is truly good for the pilots. If they can't I'll be voting no. Why Because I am happy with the way things are now and don't see the IBB as an improvement.

 

[learflyer]

NJW----No doubt about it. The TA is a GREAT deal for the pilot group. You're talking to a guy who spent almost 6 yrs at rta/options. I hope NJ pilots get what they are asking for.

GO FLY----didn't realize the company was getting more out of it than the pilot group. Having said that,
That's normally what corporations do. It is THIER company, and it's only natural they want the MOST money. Again, i'm pro union, I voted for it at flops, i'm not saying it's right, i'm just saying........

 

[Go Fly]

Start with SCOPE: read job security and the opportunity for NJA pilots to fly internationally as opposed to all of those flights being done by NJI and NJE. Those who follow closely are very pleased with this development. Add excellent benefits locked in for 8 years, along with the guarantee of good wages (with COLA) and a signing bonus worth thousands of dollars depending on your seniority. That is money now that might not be acquired when the current contract becomes amendable. Potential risks: In 2010 will the Union be led by a group as talented as SU with volunteers as dedicated as those that worked on IBB? ( just because burn-out isn't discussed doesn't mean it isn't a problem). Will the same favorable economic and cultural climate pilots now enjoy with the company be there in the future? Prior to the 2005 CBA profits poured into NJE were not made available to NJA pilots. This is your chance to lock in a good deal before the parent company again turns their attention away. If you turn down the company's fair offer now how accommodating will they be in 2010?? Human nature says not much. How much money will be left on the table? Let's see...a 5 yr 7&7 Captain would miss out on $128,163 and one on the reserve would leave behind $178,423. The lowest paid 7&7 pilot would lose $158,800 and the new hires on the reserve would be denied $221,740. The difference between the CBA and the TA are substantial and could mean a huge QOL increase for many NJ pilots and their families. In addition: the pre-rat pilots would gain 95 bases; the post-ratters would see HBA binding language not in the CBA; all would be offered an additional schedule choice; all could make more money by selling back PTO days at 110% and pilots turning 50 yrs old will be given a 50% matching "catch up" contribution to their 401K to help plan a secure retirement--a better deal than those nearing retirement currently have.

I think Union leaders are counting on the NJ pilots being able to recognize a good deal when they see one. Maybe they are so well versed in contract issues that all the info seems intuitive to them? Perhaps they believe they have already proven their ability to lead the pilots in the right direction? Could it be that the same group who worked on the current contract so many are satisfied with think they have earned a vote of confidence and are just taking a well deserved break before going out to meet the pilots and answer their questions? I know my husband can't believe that any NJ pilot viewing the contract as a whole will not see the merit in it. To him the condition the company must meet to extend the contract is well worth it. Sure sounds to me like the two sides worked out a fair exchange during IBB. NJW

NJW

Alright, once again, I am happy with the money. Don't have any issues with it. We're beating a dead horse on the money issue. But this isn't all about money. There is much, much, much more to it.

But you have no more ability than I do to tell what the state of the national economy or NetJets financial is going to be in the year 2016. It's just to far away and there is no guarantee our COLA increases we keep up with inflation that far in advance. Everything is a gamble here. Every positive point you make has a negative side.

In 2010 will the Union be led by a group as talented as SU with volunteers as dedicated as those that worked on IBB? Perhaps they'll be better!

Will the same favorable economic and cultural climate pilots now enjoy with the company be there in the future? Perhaps they too will be better!

Scope: Yes, I agree, integrating NJI will provide us with more job security. I really don't care about the international flying. Just more work dealing with customs and it takes me farther away from my family if something happens.

But why do we have to give three years to the company if we integrate? Prior to IBB the union seemed fairly confident in getting the integration done. What percipitated the change? I don't believe this justifies the 3 years we have to pay for it.

Finally, if the union leaders think that just because they did a good job on the CBA that we should just take their word for it on IBB they are very naive. And I know they aren't. They have presented something to us that they feel is good. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. If that were the case why should I even have a vote. Hell they should just sign the thing. I'm not just going to blindly follow them just because I think they are doing a good job.

I am patiently waiting for them to start explaining their logic and reasoning. Based on what I have seen and read so far, the 2016 deal makes this a no vote for me. But I remain open minded and 100% willing to make a change if the leadership can convince me it's a good idea. However, if they make the same arguments you have, I will remain a no vote.

 

[netjetwife]

What happens when growth stops or goes backward in the industry and relative seniority does the same thing? You refer to the good news and best news. What about the bad news as it pertains to future stagnant seniority?

Articles in publications like AIN and Wall Street Journal have touted the expansion in business aviation. Apparently the owners love the service. The fracs are better situated than the airlines as far as furloughs go. After 911 NJ hired laid off pilots like my husband. He was very junior at AA and we certainly wouldn't have expected him to keep the job if it meant a pilot senior to him would lose his/hers. AT AA he had expected to be on the reserve in a hub he didn't want for years. It's the nature of the business, isn't it? Currently, NJA will open up 100 bases for junior pilots if the TA passes. Ratification will give new hires $56,875 for the 7&7 and pay $69, 188 on the reserve in 2008. Should the TA pass and NJA opt to extend it thru 2015 FOs will be making $84,330 and $102,588. 1108 leaders recognize that those most junior on the list must have wages that support a family. Low FO pay in the 2005 CBA has always bothered me because I was concerned about junior pilots (and their families) being stuck on an inadequate salary too long while waiting to upgrade. If economic factors cause the seniority list to become stagnant I'd rather see that happen with decent wages locked in and the FOs having more options of affordable bases to live in. Should growth stop completely, I'd think that job security and guaranteed wages at an attractive rate would matter more than a pilot's choice in scheduling. That said, I'm glad that NJ pilots are allowed to swap vacation slots and the TA has a provision for swapping tours as well. In addition, the company will make days available to pilots on a first come first served basis (regardless of seniority) that they can use as Paid Time Off days. I think there are far worse jobs than NJA for junior pilots. It pleases me that I can now say that. It wasn't always the case. Good luck to FOs! NJW

 

[CE750Driver]

NJW, this may be a good thing for you and your husband, but don't make it seem like it is for everybody. The senior guys, the ones who got the lowest percentage raise last time, are being asked to take NO pay raise for a period of 1-8 years depending on seniority and the length of the contract.

This union has all but shown what they think of the senior membership at the company, and it will only change when one of them gets to the senior point.

So, all in all, your championing of a contract that benefits you and throws a group of 300 down a toilet is a little off of your usual, the union protects and is fair with everyone drivel.

 

[Go Fly]

Thank you NJW

You just completely made my point for me. NJA's projected growth is simply unbelievable. Satulli has said that he would like to get 60 new planes next year and 90 new planes in 2009. I just had a conversation with a sales rep and he confirmed that. If NJA continues to grow and show record profits I would like to have a part of that success. But, with this IBB, there is no chance at it till 2016. A profit sharing program would be nice though and probably sway my opinion but it's too late for that.

I've been furloughed more than once from the airlines I have many, many friends at the regionals, several of them captains. They are miserable! Trust me there are much worse jobs in aviation than NJA even under the current CBA.

NJA must fix the problem of being unable to keep FOs. It is costing them tons of money in training fees and airplanes they can't properly staff. That is why this IBB is most beneficial to FOs. However, when these folks are hired they know exactly what the game is. If they can't live with the wages or the domiciles then they shouldn't come here period. If we have the opportunity to try to help them then we should but not at the cost of our own QOL. If the IBB doesn't pass then NJA is still faced with losing more FOs than they can afford.

By the way, the new PTO is a joke and way to complicated. Much easier to just use your sick time. Vacation swapping is nice though.

 

[Diesel]

Heck if this is only about pay just pay me 400k and we can ignore any work rules, longevity, or just about anything else in the contract.

 

[CA1900]

However, when these folks are hired they know exactly what the game is. If they can't live with the wages or the domiciles then they shouldn't come here period.

Wow, that's amazingly shortsighted.

Have you done anything to help better your job at NetJets? Did you vote for the current CBA that so drastically improved your working conditions? Do you fly from an airport near you, rather than still use one of the gateways?

If the answer to any of those questions is "Yes," then you're making my point for me.

By the way, the new PTO is a joke and way to complicated. Much easier to just use your sick time.

And if you're not sick, that's fraudulent and dishonest. A legitimate avenue to get personal days off is a progress, in my opinion. If you don't like the new system, then don't use it. Treat them like "sick" days as you always have, and take your chances.

 

[netjetwife]

NJW Alright, once again, I am happy with the money. Don't have any issues with it. We're beating a dead horse on the money issue. I beg to differ. GF, many aren't making acceptable wages, namely those at the bottom of the list and most families welcome a pay raise and a bonus. But this isn't all about money. There is much, much, much more to it. After the big issue of pay comes bases for those in the Union who are stuck in 5 Domiciles--adding 95 is a huge jump with a QOL impact. Having an additional schedule to choose from is very appealing and many welcome a PTO system that allows them to bid for days off in advance and sell back PTOs at 110%. Those thousands of dollars can add to family coffers if the TA passes. That is another financial improvement from IBB. But you don't want to talk about money, so how about those changes in the Training Section--some positive firsts there, and the "no stacking" rule will open up more positions--gotta be happy about that. More pilots making more...well, you know... Those well deserved pay raises for NRFO, check pilots, and TRs are good news, huh? The two thoughts do go together, you know...

But you have no more ability than I do to tell what the state of the national economy or NetJets financial is going to be in the year 2016. Agreed, but I do know what a substantial pay raise will mean to families right now. And the bonu$ is a very big deal to lots of us. It could buy big QOL items that can be enjoyed from here on out and/or it could be invested now to provide greater financial security in the future. ... there is no guarantee our COLA increases we keep up with inflation that far in advance. That problem with the 2005 contract was addressed in IBB. The yearly pay raises thru 2012 (in the TA) are an increase over the CBA and will cover current inflationary rates. As an additional precaution: 30.2(C)(2)(a)The Company will agree, at the time of exercising the option, to adjust upward each of the wage scales in Section 27 of the Basic Agreement in each year of the option period. These adjustments will be made on May 22nd, 2013, 2014, and 2015, and will equal the CPI-U percentage increase during the immediately preceding calendar year (computed from December 1 to November 30), as published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. So you see 1108 was looking out for NJ pilots and their families. Please retract false information that may needlessly worry others. Everything is a gamble here. For those things not guaranteed (like what happens if the TA doesn't pass?) I suggest that many people don't like gambling and prefer a "bird in the hand", especially when it's helping to feather their own nest. How's that for mixing metaphors...

As for your response to my question: In 2010 will the Union be led by a group as talented as SU with volunteers as dedicated as those that worked on IBB? Perhaps they'll be better! Unfortunately, pay scales prior to the SU led 2005 CBA and recent MEC elections (2 positions were awarded by default because no one else ran) don't support much optimism in this case. The concern about volunteers becoming burned-out shouldn't be taken lightly. For several years their personal plans have been postponed for the greater good so I'm relieved to see that you're not counting on current leaders to carry the no-voters' fight forward if IBB doesn't pass. Union leaders support passage of the TA that picks up where the 2005 CBA left off and represents overall progress for the pilot group.

Will the same favorable economic and cultural climate pilots now enjoy with the company be there in the future? Perhaps they too will be better! NJ bargaining history and typical human attitudes don't support your hopes. Profits were poured into expansion while NJ pilots waited years for wage increases. Now is a great time to grab a deal while NJE is pulling its on weight and before BH turns its eye (and dollars) toward the next frac frontier. Most people get disgruntled when they feel their help/overtures are rejected and they are less inclined to accommodate your requests next time around. Considering all the time and effort that was put into IBB by both sides, I think it's more realistic that the NJ pilots will get a distinctly cooler reception next time they approach the bargaining table --if they slap the hand that was held out to them this time.

Scope: Yes, I agree, integrating NJI will provide us with more job security. A paramount priority so I'm not surprised you agree. I really don't care about the international flying. Just more work dealing with customs and it takes me farther away from my family if something happens. Many of your fellow pilots will view it differently and they should not be denied the opportunity. If you're not interested, don't bid the plane. But why do we have to give three years to the company if we integrate? You have to give something to get something and most companies prefer to have their labor costs known so that they can focus on opportunities. The deal does come with higher wages for the pilots. Prior to IBB the union seemed fairly confident in getting the integration done. What percipitated the change? I don't believe this justifies the 3 years we have to pay for it. Not the integration done, only the process started. Big difference. You're misreading their determination to file the single carrier suit. It would be left to the court system where it could take years, cost tons of money... and there is no guarantee the NJA pilots would win. This way, the entire group works together, protecting the brand name from bad publicity and expanding the business. NJ families get job security, QOL provided by good wages, and the pilots will have future opportunities they are paid to explore instead of spending time and money fighting to get the chances they deserve.

Finally, if the union leaders think that just because they did a good job on the CBA that we should just take their word for it on IBB they are very naive. If they thought that they wouldn't have worked tirelessly to get the documents out ASAP and then spend more of their personal time answering questions... And I know they aren't. Ooops..I'm responding as I go...sorry.. :blush: You're right. SU has some very sharp leaders/volunteers. They have presented something to us that they feel is good. Yes, and as you pointed out, they do have a good track record. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them.... True, but I do hope that you'll take their past performance into account and throughly review the TA that will bring significant overall gains. I'm not just going to blindly follow them just because I think they are doing a good job. Nor have they asked you to. Union leaders stand by their work and value fellow pilots that embrace self-education and a strong work ethic. I am patiently waiting for them to start explaining their logic and reasoning. Thanks. The last month was brutal with very long hours and lots of hard work when they realized that the time was right to work together on a better CBA for all involved. Based on what I have seen and read so far, the 2016 deal makes this a no vote for me. I cringed when I read that too, but I asked questions and got a full explanation on the importance of Scope. I'd also like to see NJ families have stress-free time to enjoy life without having to fight later for the wages that are currently being offered by the TA now. But I remain open minded and 100% willing to make a change if the leadership can convince me it's a good idea....There is a special section of the NJ pilots' board reserved for asking IBB questions, the leadership takes emails and phone calls from the members, and Road Shows are being planned to give pilots the chance to ask questions directly and hear firsthand the team's experience and insight gained during IBB.

1108 has always encouraged a fully participating, educated Membership. After reading the entire document, many NJ pilots find themselves more appreciative of IBB than they were initially. That doesn't surprise me as I've had the same reaction. NJW

 

[Ultra Grump]

NJW - let me know when you take those blinders off. Every section of this IBB is NOT as good a deal as you make it out to be.

 

[netjetwife]

Well Grumpy, at least I've got my information right on the TA facts. Not all posters can say the same. The thing you allude to is a difference of opinion and I think blinders (if I were so inclined to wear them) would fit right in considering how many here are refusing to take an open-minded look at the TA....