Rumor... NJA... Rumor

[bosdrx]

Please tell me this pilot group isn't as divided as it seems. I know its only a small percentage that post here, but you guys paint a pretty bleak picture of what senior pilots think of those hired after the CBA... I sincerely hope you don't represent the majority at NJA.

 

[niteflyr]

They are very much the minority.

I think anyone hired 5+years ago came here anticipating great changes in the "new contract" they were negotiating. We all bet on this business turning into something worthwhile, and now criticize the new guys for accepting the job when they "knew what they were getting into." But I am just one of the silent "weak sycophants" they are talking down to on the union site.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Well Grumpy, at least I've got my information right on the TA facts.

Really?
What about this then:

The yearly pay raises thru 2012 (in the TA) are an increase over the CBA and will cover current inflationary rates.

You don't know that it will cover inflationary rates. What will 2008's inflation rate be? How about 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012? That's right, you don't know. So your information and facts are not exactly right, are they?

Even if they do end up equaling the average inflation, aside from upgrades, everybody essentially has stagnant buying power and quality of life until at least 2013. Oh, except for anyone who hits 14+ years in the next 5 years. They essentially move backward every year.

But keep filling us up with your rosy "facts."

 

[netjetwife]

....The senior guys, the ones who got the lowest percentage raise last time, but more the time before are being asked to take NO pay raise for a period of 1-8 years depending on seniority and the length of the contract. This union has all but shown what they think of the senior membership at the company, and it will only change when one of them gets to the senior point. So, all in all, your championing of a contract that benefits you I must be doing a very bad job of standing up for the FOs because my husband is a 5 yr PIC, not a member of the 600 or so at the bottom of the list that need the most help. and throws a group of 300 down a toilet is a little off of your usual, the union protects and is fair with everyone drivel.

Union Stewards have a legal duty of fair representation. In 1108 DFR is taken very seriously and the leaders/volunteers have worked very hard for the greater good. More "drivel" later... Your post may confuse people who don't read all sections closely. While the specific term "pay raise" is correct in the strictest use it is not accurate or fair to suggest that senior NJ pilots will be ignored. The signing bonus is prorated with those most senior getting the most money--up to $25,200. That's fair and I've never heard any one complain about that. In addition to that bonus, at the same time senior pilots will get a $10K longevity bonus at the beginning of the contract if the TA passes. I'm sure many pilots would like to be shown the $35,200 worth of "disre$pect" you feel you're getting... People who like getting extra pay all at one time will see it as an advantage. It's fair because essentially you're still just getting your salary increase for the year--just all at one time. Notice that I dispense "drivel" evenhandedly...

Additionally, under the TA those over year 14 will receive an Annual Longevity Bonus of 4% of their base salary--around $5,500 for a 15 yr 7&7 pilot. To protect the pilots' wages the entire pay scale will be adjusted to the CPI-U if the company opts to extend the contract past 2012, and senior pilots get their annual bonus (prorated) if they quit during the year. That's only fair, but 1108 did make sure you were protected and could quit early without losing all of the longevity bonus. See my post about ERISA to learn how 1108 is taking legal advice on how to protect members as they prepare for retirement. It's nice that our predominantly junior leadership is looking out for the best interests of those more senior. At the same time they worked out a proposal that helps bring the 600 or so FOs up to decent wages from the sub par salary they now have. SU has worked hard to help balance the inequities created in the past when those at the bottom of the list were left behind. This TA does offer additional compensation for all the NJ pilots, albeit in different forms.

I already had a good idea how difficult it is to address the competing interests of a large group when you're trying to find the situation that is most equitable for pilots spread across the seniority list. You've now brought that fact even closer to home for me, CE.

 

[netjetwife]

...
What about this then: The yearly pay raises thru 2012 (in the TA) are an increase over the CBA and will cover current inflationary rates. You don't know that it will cover inflationary rates. ...Thanks for your help, UG. I had intended to type the word "trends" but inadvertently typed out "rates". My thought process was that factors like inflation were studied by those who worked on Section 27. The rates were set to cover current inflationary trends. Even if they do end up equaling the average inflation, aside from upgrades, everybody essentially has stagnant buying power and quality of life until at least 2013. Oh, except for anyone who hits 14+ years in the next 5 years. They essentially move backward every year. But keep filling us up with your rosy "facts."

I doubt those slated to receive thousands of dollars in a signing bonus consider that "stagnant buying power". The fact is that everyone will get more money if IBB passes and many will get a QOL bump. 5 yr PICs could end up making over 90K more thru 2012 and new hires could earn over 120K more in those years.

Senior pilots will get $35K in bonuses at the beginning of the IBB contract and 4% yearly bonuses in the out-years. With the provision for selling back PTO days at 110% senior pilots will move to the front of the profit line, but the opportunity will appeal to many of their fellow pilots, as well.

 

[RNObased]

An 1108 friend is supposed to e-mail it to me but hasn't yet. Our management's take is "there's nothing new here." Yeah, right.

We also don't have access to the full IBB proposal. Is there specific language vis-a-vis merger?

Gutshot,
Not to be a smart ass, but your mangement is blowing something up your backside. The language is huge and from the response I got from mangement when I questioned them on it the other day, I would say they are serious.

It isn't merger language, it is amount of international flying language.

 

[Diesel]

Man netjetwife should have joined the fab 5 on their last roadshow. She is selling the heck out of this thing.

 

[learflyer]

You guys just keep on pickin' pepper out of fly $hit! It's entertaining anyway.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Silence speaks volumes

Articles in publications like AIN and Wall Street Journal have touted the expansion in business aviation. Apparently the owners love the service. The fracs are better situated than the airlines as far as furloughs go. After 911 NJ hired laid off pilots like my husband. He was very junior at AA and we certainly wouldn't have expected him to keep the job if it meant a pilot senior to him would lose his/hers. AT AA he had expected to be on the reserve in a hub he didn't want for years. It's the nature of the business, isn't it? Currently, NJA will open up 100 bases for junior pilots if the TA passes. Ratification will give new hires $56,875 for the 7&7 and pay $69, 188 on the reserve in 2008. Should the TA pass and NJA opt to extend it thru 2015 FOs will be making $84,330 and $102,588. 1108 leaders recognize that those most junior on the list must have wages that support a family. Low FO pay in the 2005 CBA has always bothered me because I was concerned about junior pilots (and their families) being stuck on an inadequate salary too long while waiting to upgrade. If economic factors cause the seniority list to become stagnant I'd rather see that happen with decent wages locked in and the FOs having more options of affordable bases to live in. Should growth stop completely, I'd think that job security and guaranteed wages at an attractive rate would matter more than a pilot's choice in scheduling. That said, I'm glad that NJ pilots are allowed to swap vacation slots and the TA has a provision for swapping tours as well. In addition, the company will make days available to pilots on a first come first served basis (regardless of seniority) that they can use as Paid Time Off days. I think there are far worse jobs than NJA for junior pilots. It pleases me that I can now say that. It wasn't always the case. Good luck to FOs! NJW

The only observation I'm going to make is very simple. The majority of the posts are coming from those at NJ and Options. The ongoing issues with contracts appear to always be stirring the pot and creating some type of "issue" giving pilots something to complain about and create a distraction.

All the other fracs that have no represention are very quiet on these boards. Could it be that these folks are relatively content and that in reality they are really better places to work BECAUSE there is no representation on the property? They might not make as much money, and maybe the perks might not be so great as those appear to be with contracts but there is something to be said for the silence from them.

QOL isn't always measured by how much one makes or how much time one gets off each month. It's measured by how one feels when they go to work each day.

Their silence speaks volumes.

 

[NJA Capt]

All the other fracs that have no representation are very quiet on these boards.
Their silence speaks volumes.

It is commonly know that at least one of them "strongly discourages" their pilots from participation on public boards. Therefore, their fear of retribution keeps them silent here.

Speak to them in person and you will get an earful.

 

[old*art]

There's an old saying in the real estate world about deals .... pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered.

 

[Ultra Grump]

QOL isn't always measured by how much one makes or how much time one gets off each month. It's measured by how one feels when they go to work each day.

No, QOL is measured by how one feels when they are OFF work, influenced greatly by how much time one gets off each month, and how much one makes. Funny how that works.

Their silence speaks volumes.

It's called sulking.

 

[Ultra Grump]

The rates were set to cover current inflationary trends.

Thanks for helping make my points. 1) If the increases do match inflation, we are stagnating in buying power. Why do you find that so hard to recognize? 2) "Set to cover current inflationary trends." Have you been paying attention to economists such as Alan Greenspan lately? "Current inflationary trends" have been very low the last 10 years. This will most likely NOT continue. This TA does not cover the last 10 years, it covers the next 10 years. I am glad you are so comfortable with having no increase in buying power year-over-year. I'm not.

I doubt those slated to receive thousands of dollars in a signing bonus consider that "stagnant buying power".

The signing bonus will only last so long. What is a $25,000 bonus worth over the length of a 9-year contract? Not a whole lot of buying power there. Why do you refuse to recognize that longevity increases of "current inflationary trends" equates to no real yearly raise at all?

The fact is that everyone will get more money if IBB passes and many will get a QOL bump. 5 yr PICs could end up making over 90K more thru 2012 and new hires could earn over 120K more in those years.

Nobody is disputing that there is a pay bump. What I am disputing is that you say it is enough to offset the concessionary changes to the contract. I believe it is not enough, and certainly not enough to lock into a 9-year deal.

The TA includes a small portion of the Wilson survey data and analysis. One line about section 27 caught my eye:

"Crewmembers were willing to modify most other parts of the CBA based on pay increases."
​

Unfortunately, "most other parts" were modified, not in a positive way, and we did not get enough in trade.

 

[dillfer]

What a bunch of winers. I've never heard of so many people b!tch about a raise.

 

[GerryG]

The only observation I'm going to make is very simple. The majority of the posts are coming from those at NJ and Options. The ongoing issues with contracts appear to always be stirring the pot and creating some type of "issue" giving pilots something to complain about and create a distraction.

All the other fracs that have no represention are very quiet on these boards. Could it be that these folks are relatively content and that in reality they are really better places to work BECAUSE there is no representation on the property? They might not make as much money, and maybe the perks might not be so great as those appear to be with contracts but there is something to be said for the silence from them.

QOL isn't always measured by how much one makes or how much time one gets off each month. It's measured by how one feels when they go to work each day.

Their silence speaks volumes.

Come on Bob you can do better than that. I mean have you actually talked to any CS or Flex pilots lately? The ones I've talked to are all complaining about the rash of predatory HR practices that have been taking place lately. Apparently, without representation pilots are often called on the carpet for the smallest infractions.

No Bob these guys aren't happy. They are just scared. But you know all about FEAR don't you? Or is Uncertainty your thing, I forget.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Gutshot,
Not to be a smart ass, but your mangement is blowing something up your backside. The language is huge and from the response I got from mangement when I questioned them on it the other day, I would say they are serious.

It isn't merger language, it is amount of international flying language.

Did you see the "Yeah, right" comment on my post??

I KNOW they are blowing sunshine.

As I understand it, unless 1108 pilots are doing 85% of trans-oceanic flying by a certain date (2012 or 2013 I think), the IBB agreement cannot be extended the aditional 3 years. The only way that number can be achieved is for NJI to become an 1108 shop.

On the other hand, RTS may be planning to NOT extend the agreement the extra 3 years and doesn't care whether the 85% target is met thereby keeping NJI a non-union shop.

What I don't know, and maybe someone can answer, is whether this language will pre-empt a filing next November. It could be that BOTH sides recognize that the legal avenue would be costly and destructive with no better than a 50-50 shot for either side and this is a gradual, face-saving way to integrate the seniority lists over the long term.

All I DO know is that NJI management is keeping any information they do have on the issue very close to the vest.

 

[B19 Flyer]

No, QOL is measured by how one feels when they are OFF work, influenced greatly by how much time one gets off each month, and how much one makes. Funny how that works.
It's called sulking.

Don't agree. QOL is 24/7.

QOL is based on what happens when you are AT work more than when you are off work because it allows balance. If you can't wait to get off work, then you are in the wrong career.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Don't agree. QOL is 24/7.

QOL is based on what happens when you are AT work more than when you are off work because it allows balance. If you can't wait to get off work, then you are in the wrong career.

Problem is, riding mountain bikes, waterskiing, and making love to my wife don't pay very well. Gotta do something to pay the bills. I don't live to work, I work to live.

 

[netjetwife]

....
As I understand it, unless 1108 pilots are doing 85% of trans-oceanic flying by a certain date (2012 or 2013 I think), the IBB agreement cannot be extended the aditional 3 years. The only way that number can be achieved is for NJI to become an 1108 shop.

On the other hand, RTS may be planning to NOT extend the agreement the extra 3 years and doesn't care whether the 85% target is met thereby keeping NJI a non-union shop. That possibility was considered and the language includes financial penalties in the event that route is chosen. It's a formula so it sounds like it could be expensive in application. I was told that's the idea.

What I don't know, and maybe someone can answer, is whether this language will pre-empt a filing next November. There's nothing in writing, but your guess seems logical to me. It could be that BOTH sides recognize that the legal avenue would be costly and destructive with no better than a 50-50 shot for either side I agree with this viewpoint/speculation. and this is a gradual, face-saving way to integrate the seniority lists over the long term. Here, our views change slightly. I don't see it as face-saving as much as reputation saving. The owners won't be pleased if the brand name is sullied in a messy, public court case. That's not the image NJA/I pilots strive for is it? Having read the penalty language in the 85% clause, I didn't get the idea that the integration would be drawn out over a long time period. It sounds like it was written to make it cost-prohibitive for RTS to back out of the deal.

All I DO know is that NJI management is keeping any information they do have on the issue very close to the vest.

Perhaps they don't want to hear lots of complaining and/or questioning regarding a decision they can do nothing about? So they'll tell the pilots just before hand, not months in advance? I'm just guessing, but I don't think your need to know your future is as high a priority to them as theirs is right now. The pilots will all be integrated and keep working, but will the managers? They may be too preoccupied with figuring out the details to share them just yet. Regardless of the reason being in limbo is difficult and I wish you and your fellow NJI pilots the best.
NJW

 

[RTRHD]

Perhaps they don't want to hear lots of complaining and/or questioning regarding a decision they can do nothing about? So they'll tell the pilots just before hand, not months in advance? I'm just guessing, but I don't think your need to know your future is as high a priority to them as theirs is right now. The pilots will all be integrated and keep working, but will the managers? They may be too preoccupied with figuring out the details to share them just yet. Regardless of the reason being in limbo is difficult and I wish you and your fellow NJI pilots the best.
NJW

I wonder what the owners are going to say????? No flame intended.