Rumor... NJA... Rumor

[learflyer]

NJW----No doubt about it. The TA is a GREAT deal for the pilot group. You're talking to a guy who spent almost 6 yrs at rta/options. I hope NJ pilots get what they are asking for.

GO FLY----didn't realize the company was getting more out of it than the pilot group. Having said that,
That's normally what corporations do. It is THIER company, and it's only natural they want the MOST money. Again, i'm pro union, I voted for it at flops, i'm not saying it's right, i'm just saying........

 

[Go Fly]

Start with SCOPE: read job security and the opportunity for NJA pilots to fly internationally as opposed to all of those flights being done by NJI and NJE. Those who follow closely are very pleased with this development. Add excellent benefits locked in for 8 years, along with the guarantee of good wages (with COLA) and a signing bonus worth thousands of dollars depending on your seniority. That is money now that might not be acquired when the current contract becomes amendable. Potential risks: In 2010 will the Union be led by a group as talented as SU with volunteers as dedicated as those that worked on IBB? ( just because burn-out isn't discussed doesn't mean it isn't a problem). Will the same favorable economic and cultural climate pilots now enjoy with the company be there in the future? Prior to the 2005 CBA profits poured into NJE were not made available to NJA pilots. This is your chance to lock in a good deal before the parent company again turns their attention away. If you turn down the company's fair offer now how accommodating will they be in 2010?? Human nature says not much. How much money will be left on the table? Let's see...a 5 yr 7&7 Captain would miss out on $128,163 and one on the reserve would leave behind $178,423. The lowest paid 7&7 pilot would lose $158,800 and the new hires on the reserve would be denied $221,740. The difference between the CBA and the TA are substantial and could mean a huge QOL increase for many NJ pilots and their families. In addition: the pre-rat pilots would gain 95 bases; the post-ratters would see HBA binding language not in the CBA; all would be offered an additional schedule choice; all could make more money by selling back PTO days at 110% and pilots turning 50 yrs old will be given a 50% matching "catch up" contribution to their 401K to help plan a secure retirement--a better deal than those nearing retirement currently have.

I think Union leaders are counting on the NJ pilots being able to recognize a good deal when they see one. Maybe they are so well versed in contract issues that all the info seems intuitive to them? Perhaps they believe they have already proven their ability to lead the pilots in the right direction? Could it be that the same group who worked on the current contract so many are satisfied with think they have earned a vote of confidence and are just taking a well deserved break before going out to meet the pilots and answer their questions? I know my husband can't believe that any NJ pilot viewing the contract as a whole will not see the merit in it. To him the condition the company must meet to extend the contract is well worth it. Sure sounds to me like the two sides worked out a fair exchange during IBB. NJW

NJW

Alright, once again, I am happy with the money. Don't have any issues with it. We're beating a dead horse on the money issue. But this isn't all about money. There is much, much, much more to it.

But you have no more ability than I do to tell what the state of the national economy or NetJets financial is going to be in the year 2016. It's just to far away and there is no guarantee our COLA increases we keep up with inflation that far in advance. Everything is a gamble here. Every positive point you make has a negative side.

In 2010 will the Union be led by a group as talented as SU with volunteers as dedicated as those that worked on IBB? Perhaps they'll be better!

Will the same favorable economic and cultural climate pilots now enjoy with the company be there in the future? Perhaps they too will be better!

Scope: Yes, I agree, integrating NJI will provide us with more job security. I really don't care about the international flying. Just more work dealing with customs and it takes me farther away from my family if something happens.

But why do we have to give three years to the company if we integrate? Prior to IBB the union seemed fairly confident in getting the integration done. What percipitated the change? I don't believe this justifies the 3 years we have to pay for it.

Finally, if the union leaders think that just because they did a good job on the CBA that we should just take their word for it on IBB they are very naive. And I know they aren't. They have presented something to us that they feel is good. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. If that were the case why should I even have a vote. Hell they should just sign the thing. I'm not just going to blindly follow them just because I think they are doing a good job.

I am patiently waiting for them to start explaining their logic and reasoning. Based on what I have seen and read so far, the 2016 deal makes this a no vote for me. But I remain open minded and 100% willing to make a change if the leadership can convince me it's a good idea. However, if they make the same arguments you have, I will remain a no vote.

 

[netjetwife]

What happens when growth stops or goes backward in the industry and relative seniority does the same thing? You refer to the good news and best news. What about the bad news as it pertains to future stagnant seniority?

Articles in publications like AIN and Wall Street Journal have touted the expansion in business aviation. Apparently the owners love the service. The fracs are better situated than the airlines as far as furloughs go. After 911 NJ hired laid off pilots like my husband. He was very junior at AA and we certainly wouldn't have expected him to keep the job if it meant a pilot senior to him would lose his/hers. AT AA he had expected to be on the reserve in a hub he didn't want for years. It's the nature of the business, isn't it? Currently, NJA will open up 100 bases for junior pilots if the TA passes. Ratification will give new hires $56,875 for the 7&7 and pay $69, 188 on the reserve in 2008. Should the TA pass and NJA opt to extend it thru 2015 FOs will be making $84,330 and $102,588. 1108 leaders recognize that those most junior on the list must have wages that support a family. Low FO pay in the 2005 CBA has always bothered me because I was concerned about junior pilots (and their families) being stuck on an inadequate salary too long while waiting to upgrade. If economic factors cause the seniority list to become stagnant I'd rather see that happen with decent wages locked in and the FOs having more options of affordable bases to live in. Should growth stop completely, I'd think that job security and guaranteed wages at an attractive rate would matter more than a pilot's choice in scheduling. That said, I'm glad that NJ pilots are allowed to swap vacation slots and the TA has a provision for swapping tours as well. In addition, the company will make days available to pilots on a first come first served basis (regardless of seniority) that they can use as Paid Time Off days. I think there are far worse jobs than NJA for junior pilots. It pleases me that I can now say that. It wasn't always the case. Good luck to FOs! NJW

 

[CE750Driver]

NJW, this may be a good thing for you and your husband, but don't make it seem like it is for everybody. The senior guys, the ones who got the lowest percentage raise last time, are being asked to take NO pay raise for a period of 1-8 years depending on seniority and the length of the contract.

This union has all but shown what they think of the senior membership at the company, and it will only change when one of them gets to the senior point.

So, all in all, your championing of a contract that benefits you and throws a group of 300 down a toilet is a little off of your usual, the union protects and is fair with everyone drivel.

 

[Go Fly]

Thank you NJW

You just completely made my point for me. NJA's projected growth is simply unbelievable. Satulli has said that he would like to get 60 new planes next year and 90 new planes in 2009. I just had a conversation with a sales rep and he confirmed that. If NJA continues to grow and show record profits I would like to have a part of that success. But, with this IBB, there is no chance at it till 2016. A profit sharing program would be nice though and probably sway my opinion but it's too late for that.

I've been furloughed more than once from the airlines I have many, many friends at the regionals, several of them captains. They are miserable! Trust me there are much worse jobs in aviation than NJA even under the current CBA.

NJA must fix the problem of being unable to keep FOs. It is costing them tons of money in training fees and airplanes they can't properly staff. That is why this IBB is most beneficial to FOs. However, when these folks are hired they know exactly what the game is. If they can't live with the wages or the domiciles then they shouldn't come here period. If we have the opportunity to try to help them then we should but not at the cost of our own QOL. If the IBB doesn't pass then NJA is still faced with losing more FOs than they can afford.

By the way, the new PTO is a joke and way to complicated. Much easier to just use your sick time. Vacation swapping is nice though.

 

[Diesel]

Heck if this is only about pay just pay me 400k and we can ignore any work rules, longevity, or just about anything else in the contract.

 

[CA1900]

However, when these folks are hired they know exactly what the game is. If they can't live with the wages or the domiciles then they shouldn't come here period.

Wow, that's amazingly shortsighted.

Have you done anything to help better your job at NetJets? Did you vote for the current CBA that so drastically improved your working conditions? Do you fly from an airport near you, rather than still use one of the gateways?

If the answer to any of those questions is "Yes," then you're making my point for me.

By the way, the new PTO is a joke and way to complicated. Much easier to just use your sick time.

And if you're not sick, that's fraudulent and dishonest. A legitimate avenue to get personal days off is a progress, in my opinion. If you don't like the new system, then don't use it. Treat them like "sick" days as you always have, and take your chances.

 

[netjetwife]

NJW Alright, once again, I am happy with the money. Don't have any issues with it. We're beating a dead horse on the money issue. I beg to differ. GF, many aren't making acceptable wages, namely those at the bottom of the list and most families welcome a pay raise and a bonus. But this isn't all about money. There is much, much, much more to it. After the big issue of pay comes bases for those in the Union who are stuck in 5 Domiciles--adding 95 is a huge jump with a QOL impact. Having an additional schedule to choose from is very appealing and many welcome a PTO system that allows them to bid for days off in advance and sell back PTOs at 110%. Those thousands of dollars can add to family coffers if the TA passes. That is another financial improvement from IBB. But you don't want to talk about money, so how about those changes in the Training Section--some positive firsts there, and the "no stacking" rule will open up more positions--gotta be happy about that. More pilots making more...well, you know... Those well deserved pay raises for NRFO, check pilots, and TRs are good news, huh? The two thoughts do go together, you know...

But you have no more ability than I do to tell what the state of the national economy or NetJets financial is going to be in the year 2016. Agreed, but I do know what a substantial pay raise will mean to families right now. And the bonu$ is a very big deal to lots of us. It could buy big QOL items that can be enjoyed from here on out and/or it could be invested now to provide greater financial security in the future. ... there is no guarantee our COLA increases we keep up with inflation that far in advance. That problem with the 2005 contract was addressed in IBB. The yearly pay raises thru 2012 (in the TA) are an increase over the CBA and will cover current inflationary rates. As an additional precaution: 30.2(C)(2)(a)The Company will agree, at the time of exercising the option, to adjust upward each of the wage scales in Section 27 of the Basic Agreement in each year of the option period. These adjustments will be made on May 22nd, 2013, 2014, and 2015, and will equal the CPI-U percentage increase during the immediately preceding calendar year (computed from December 1 to November 30), as published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. So you see 1108 was looking out for NJ pilots and their families. Please retract false information that may needlessly worry others. Everything is a gamble here. For those things not guaranteed (like what happens if the TA doesn't pass?) I suggest that many people don't like gambling and prefer a "bird in the hand", especially when it's helping to feather their own nest. How's that for mixing metaphors...

As for your response to my question: In 2010 will the Union be led by a group as talented as SU with volunteers as dedicated as those that worked on IBB? Perhaps they'll be better! Unfortunately, pay scales prior to the SU led 2005 CBA and recent MEC elections (2 positions were awarded by default because no one else ran) don't support much optimism in this case. The concern about volunteers becoming burned-out shouldn't be taken lightly. For several years their personal plans have been postponed for the greater good so I'm relieved to see that you're not counting on current leaders to carry the no-voters' fight forward if IBB doesn't pass. Union leaders support passage of the TA that picks up where the 2005 CBA left off and represents overall progress for the pilot group.

Will the same favorable economic and cultural climate pilots now enjoy with the company be there in the future? Perhaps they too will be better! NJ bargaining history and typical human attitudes don't support your hopes. Profits were poured into expansion while NJ pilots waited years for wage increases. Now is a great time to grab a deal while NJE is pulling its on weight and before BH turns its eye (and dollars) toward the next frac frontier. Most people get disgruntled when they feel their help/overtures are rejected and they are less inclined to accommodate your requests next time around. Considering all the time and effort that was put into IBB by both sides, I think it's more realistic that the NJ pilots will get a distinctly cooler reception next time they approach the bargaining table --if they slap the hand that was held out to them this time.

Scope: Yes, I agree, integrating NJI will provide us with more job security. A paramount priority so I'm not surprised you agree. I really don't care about the international flying. Just more work dealing with customs and it takes me farther away from my family if something happens. Many of your fellow pilots will view it differently and they should not be denied the opportunity. If you're not interested, don't bid the plane. But why do we have to give three years to the company if we integrate? You have to give something to get something and most companies prefer to have their labor costs known so that they can focus on opportunities. The deal does come with higher wages for the pilots. Prior to IBB the union seemed fairly confident in getting the integration done. What percipitated the change? I don't believe this justifies the 3 years we have to pay for it. Not the integration done, only the process started. Big difference. You're misreading their determination to file the single carrier suit. It would be left to the court system where it could take years, cost tons of money... and there is no guarantee the NJA pilots would win. This way, the entire group works together, protecting the brand name from bad publicity and expanding the business. NJ families get job security, QOL provided by good wages, and the pilots will have future opportunities they are paid to explore instead of spending time and money fighting to get the chances they deserve.

Finally, if the union leaders think that just because they did a good job on the CBA that we should just take their word for it on IBB they are very naive. If they thought that they wouldn't have worked tirelessly to get the documents out ASAP and then spend more of their personal time answering questions... And I know they aren't. Ooops..I'm responding as I go...sorry.. :blush: You're right. SU has some very sharp leaders/volunteers. They have presented something to us that they feel is good. Yes, and as you pointed out, they do have a good track record. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them.... True, but I do hope that you'll take their past performance into account and throughly review the TA that will bring significant overall gains. I'm not just going to blindly follow them just because I think they are doing a good job. Nor have they asked you to. Union leaders stand by their work and value fellow pilots that embrace self-education and a strong work ethic. I am patiently waiting for them to start explaining their logic and reasoning. Thanks. The last month was brutal with very long hours and lots of hard work when they realized that the time was right to work together on a better CBA for all involved. Based on what I have seen and read so far, the 2016 deal makes this a no vote for me. I cringed when I read that too, but I asked questions and got a full explanation on the importance of Scope. I'd also like to see NJ families have stress-free time to enjoy life without having to fight later for the wages that are currently being offered by the TA now. But I remain open minded and 100% willing to make a change if the leadership can convince me it's a good idea....There is a special section of the NJ pilots' board reserved for asking IBB questions, the leadership takes emails and phone calls from the members, and Road Shows are being planned to give pilots the chance to ask questions directly and hear firsthand the team's experience and insight gained during IBB.

1108 has always encouraged a fully participating, educated Membership. After reading the entire document, many NJ pilots find themselves more appreciative of IBB than they were initially. That doesn't surprise me as I've had the same reaction. NJW

 

[Ultra Grump]

NJW - let me know when you take those blinders off. Every section of this IBB is NOT as good a deal as you make it out to be.

 

[netjetwife]

Well Grumpy, at least I've got my information right on the TA facts. Not all posters can say the same. The thing you allude to is a difference of opinion and I think blinders (if I were so inclined to wear them) would fit right in considering how many here are refusing to take an open-minded look at the TA....