Rjet update

[OpenClimb]

I was calling Citations attitude a cancer, and poison. If you want to label yourself as such than so be it. Rather you like it or not if you come back your checks will be signed by someone at the likes of RAH. We are not worthy of you so please move on to the next company. The difference between the likes of you and us is that we are willing to work to make something better RAH. If you are not interested please move on. It is that easy.

RobCat:

I realize you've run straight to the top of the moral high ground and have claimed it as your own, but:

What is it about pushing more experienced pilots to the bottom of a seniority list that IMPROVES RAH?

Your line of thinking would indicate that pushing a Midwest pilot to the bottom of a combined list would somehow indicate a desire to improve things at RAH. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any logical sense.

I'd love to see things improve at RAH. I'd love to see things improve at Mesa. However, I'd be disappointed if improving things at RAH means that life is dimished at Frontier by a proportionate share. In other words, I'm very supportive of the concept of improving your quality of life, but I do not accept the notion that Frontier or Midwest pilots ought to give you our quality of life to make it happen.

I would submit that having an automatic flow-through program such that all RAH pilots would eventually fly an Airbus and enjoy the QOL and pay associated therewith would constitute a significant improvement to RAH. This can be accomplished without taking a thing away from any current Airbus pilot. Interested? Or do you expect jump ahead of a bunch of Airbus pilots because you're at the top 1/3 of the RAH FO list with 3 years in the industry and almost 3000 hours?

The only "cancer" I see in any of this discussion is the notion that 'paying dues' is some BS concept. 'Paying dues' is just a convenient label for conversation. The concept embodied in the phrase is that you start out working less desireable jobs and hope to improve your lot in life by working your way to progressively more desireable jobs.

The idea of skipping steps in this progression is a cancer. It's a cancer of entitlement without hard work and sacrifice that manifests itself on a micro level via internet forums like Flightinfo and on a more public level in newspaper headlines each day.

You, sir, are the cancer. Not because you work for a certain company. Not because you have XXXX number of hours. Not because you make $XX,XXX. You are a cancer because you seek to sidestep hard work and sacrifice and, instead, take something from one pilot that you, yourself, have not yet earned.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

RobCat:

I realize you've run straight to the top of the moral high ground and have claimed it as your own, but:

What is it about pushing more experienced pilots to the bottom of a seniority list that IMPROVES RAH?

Your line of thinking would indicate that pushing a Midwest pilot to the bottom of a combined list would somehow indicate a desire to improve things at RAH. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any logical sense.

I'd love to see things improve at RAH. I'd love to see things improve at Mesa. However, I'd be disappointed if improving things at RAH means that life is dimished at Frontier by a proportionate share. In other words, I'm very supportive of the concept of improving your quality of life, but I do not accept the notion that Frontier or Midwest pilots ought to give you our quality of life to make it happen.

I would submit that having an automatic flow-through program such that all RAH pilots would eventually fly an Airbus and enjoy the QOL and pay associated therewith would constitute a significant improvement to RAH. This can be accomplished without taking a thing away from any current Airbus pilot. Interested? Or do you expect jump ahead of a bunch of Airbus pilots because you're at the top 1/3 of the RAH FO list with 3 years in the industry and almost 3000 hours?

The only "cancer" I see in any of this discussion is the notion that 'paying dues' is some BS concept. 'Paying dues' is just a convenient label for conversation. The concept embodied in the phrase is that you start out working less desireable jobs and hope to improve your lot in life by working your way to progressively more desireable jobs.

The idea of skipping steps in this progression is a cancer. It's a cancer of entitlement without hard work and sacrifice that manifests itself on a micro level via internet forums like Flightinfo and on a more public level in newspaper headlines each day.

You, sir, are the cancer. Not because you work for a certain company. Not because you have XXXX number of hours. Not because you make $XX,XXX. You are a cancer because you seek to sidestep hard work and sacrifice and, instead, take something from one pilot that you, yourself, have not yet earned.

Excellent post. One of the best I've read.

 

[RobCat]

I see what you are saying. If put in the same position I would hope for the same. Unfort. thats not the way the game is played in this industry. That may be the way we hope it to be myself included but its not. FWIW I'm not an advocate for stapling anyone.

 

[CitationLover]

I was calling Citations attitude a cancer, and poison. If you want to label yourself as such than so be it. Rather you like it or not if you come back your checks will be signed by someone at the likes of RAH. We are not worthy of you so please move on to the next company. The difference between the likes of you and us is that we are willing to work to make something better RAH. If you are not interested please move on. It is that easy.

and with that attitude you will never get decent rates or work rules.......

bedford loves guys/gals like you.

 

[BRA]

You think I am bad? Wait till you have a 20yr former MD80 CA who was home every night for the last 10 years.

I think our former MEC chair, with his job at HAL, will be representational of what you're going to see. Not a lot of Midwest pilots coming over. We don't have to make that decision though until we need to.

Again, you happily fly our routes, etc. but then call us the cancer and ask us to help "our" company. It's called "getting shi t on" in the real world. It doesn't produce kumbyah like you expect.

I don't think we have any 20 year guys at Allegiant yet but I have flown with some 10 year guys from Midwest. Some had more MD80 time than I had total time. One guy was flying Md80's when I was in the 4th grade. Every Midwest guy that I have met at Allegiant has been excellent to work with. If they are representative of all the Midwest pilots, then what a model pilot group. Considering the situation, I have been very impressed with how they carry themselves at Allegiant. Allegiant is a successful carrier but no doubt every Midwest pilot would have preferred to stay a Midwest pilot. A lot can be learned from these guys. I picked up a nonrev in Appleton to bring to his base and he had local chocolate bars for us....and the guy was employed by us! Pretty cool. No attitudes, no head butting, heads held high ready to work.

Pilots not standing in the doorway saying goodbye to the pax- While I think this is a nice thing to do, I hardly ever get a chance to do it at my job unless it is the last leg of the day. We do 35-40 minute turns and you are so busy trying to do your job right that it leaves little time to say good bye to all 135-150 people getting off the plane, and then the 135-150 getting back on. Checklists, notams, paperwork, walk around, bathroom break, clearance, FMS.....next thing you know it is time to go.

 

[Popeye0537]

RobCat:

I realize you've run straight to the top of the moral high ground and have claimed it as your own, but:

What is it about pushing more experienced pilots to the bottom of a seniority list that IMPROVES RAH?

Your line of thinking would indicate that pushing a Midwest pilot to the bottom of a combined list would somehow indicate a desire to improve things at RAH. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any logical sense.

I'd love to see things improve at RAH. I'd love to see things improve at Mesa. However, I'd be disappointed if improving things at RAH means that life is dimished at Frontier by a proportionate share. In other words, I'm very supportive of the concept of improving your quality of life, but I do not accept the notion that Frontier or Midwest pilots ought to give you our quality of life to make it happen.

I would submit that having an automatic flow-through program such that all RAH pilots would eventually fly an Airbus and enjoy the QOL and pay associated therewith would constitute a significant improvement to RAH. This can be accomplished without taking a thing away from any current Airbus pilot. Interested? Or do you expect jump ahead of a bunch of Airbus pilots because you're at the top 1/3 of the RAH FO list with 3 years in the industry and almost 3000 hours?

The only "cancer" I see in any of this discussion is the notion that 'paying dues' is some BS concept. 'Paying dues' is just a convenient label for conversation. The concept embodied in the phrase is that you start out working less desireable jobs and hope to improve your lot in life by working your way to progressively more desireable jobs.

The idea of skipping steps in this progression is a cancer. It's a cancer of entitlement without hard work and sacrifice that manifests itself on a micro level via internet forums like Flightinfo and on a more public level in newspaper headlines each day.

You, sir, are the cancer. Not because you work for a certain company. Not because you have XXXX number of hours. Not because you make $XX,XXX. You are a cancer because you seek to sidestep hard work and sacrifice and, instead, take something from one pilot that you, yourself, have not yet earned.

Wow you sound like a USair eastie guy with your entitlement to everything another company has gained. So just because you have more time in an aircraft then I do entitles you to hold senority over me?? Sorry thats not how it works. From your logic all the US east guys should hold the left seat in every West A/C, and the west guys should be happy just to have the ability to fly with such a seasoned pilot.

Your attitude is a cancer with the "I paid my dues, I deserve everything" when your company makes poor decisions. You and Citation would make good roomates.

And Vegas it's funny how much your attitude has changed from how happy you were to take a WN # and "sidestep" every other pilot who worked for an interview and now are disgusted to work for RAH.

And to compare W2's mine was 85,457.xx, with and average of 14-16 days off with commtable lines part of the time. That is 5th year pay with 1 month of training. I don't stay at the Ritz, mostly La Quinta but I haven't taken a pay cut and my airline just puchased 2 Majors. We are not sidestepping anyting, just working with the opportunity afforded to us.

 

[kf4amu]

And to compare W2's mine was 85,457.xx, with and average of 14-16 days off with commtable lines part of the time. That is 5th year pay with 1 month of training. I don't stay at the Ritz, mostly La Quinta but I haven't taken a pay cut and my airline just puchased 2 Majors. We are not sidestepping anyting, just working with the opportunity afforded to us.

If that's 170/175 pay thats embarassingly awful. Barely 1 dollar/seat/hr. You helped enable the opportunity for your airline to buy 2 others by giving up pay and work rules.

 

[likeitis]

If that's 170/175 pay thats embarassingly awful. Barely 1 dollar/seat/hr. You helped enable the opportunity for your airline to buy 2 others by giving up pay and work rules.

At first I have to admit that I thought wow not too shabby but then it came to me, he/she is in the left seat. No wonder BB had all that cash to buy two other airlines. That's only 10% above first year and 18% below second year pay my new employer.

 

[CitationLover]

And to compare W2's mine was 85,457.xx, with and average of 14-16 days off with commtable lines part of the time. That is 5th year pay with 1 month of training. I don't stay at the Ritz, mostly La Quinta but I haven't taken a pay cut and my airline just puchased 2 Majors. We are not sidestepping anyting, just working with the opportunity afforded to us.

95% of the 400 pilots at Midwest (the remaining 5% could claim that by your 5 yr time frame) could make that claim before the 170 takeover. At year five you're in the top 50% at RAH. See the difference?

By bragging about how the 717's (and their payrates) are going bye bye, you have shot yourselves and ANY opportunity at seeing those rates on the 190.

 

[OpenClimb]

Wow you sound like a USair eastie guy with your entitlement to everything another company has gained. So just because you have more time in an aircraft then I do entitles you to hold senority over me?? Sorry thats not how it works. From your logic all the US east guys should hold the left seat in every West A/C, and the west guys should be happy just to have the ability to fly with such a seasoned pilot.

What is it you think seniority should be based on if not (1) Time in the industry; (2) Experience in the airplane; (3) Experience in progressively larger airplanes. I'm not a feeder airline newhire. I was a feeder airline newhire a little over 10 years ago.

How is it that I'm taking something from somebody else when what I want is to keep what I already have? I don't think I'm entitled to anything anyone else has earned. Just 100% of what I have earned.

So to continue your analogy, RAH would be like America West? Keep in mind that America West is a mainline carrier flying a minimum of narrowbody mainline equipment with the pay and lifestyle to match.

The pilots at both America West and USAir moved up through the ranks and were fortunate enough to be hired by a mainline carrier. Can the same be said for RAH pilots?

How, exactly, is RAH analogous to America West?

An America West newhire had a career expectation that included flying narrobody equipment in the continental US and the near-international destinations. They didn't have an expectation to fly widebody Airbus to Europe. The arbitrator recognized this distinction.

What career expectation does an RAH pilot have? To fly a smaller, 50-90 seat jet as a feeder service for the benefit and at the behest of a mainline carrier. I don't think even the most optimistic newhire expected a chance to fly an Airbus or have Airbus pay and lifestyle when s/he was hired by RAH.

Compare that to a Frontier pilot. Do you think any Frontier pilot had a career expectation to move backwards in his career by 5 to 10 years and take a seat in a 50-90 pax jet?

Your attitude is a cancer with the "I paid my dues, I deserve everything" when your company makes poor decisions. You and Citation would make good roomates.

Standard junior high school debate tactics here. I never said I deserve everything. I said I deserve what I have earned. Nothing more, nothing less.

The question isn't whether my company made poor decisions. Fire the CEO, CFO, CIO, and a bunch of other O's if you want to punish the Company for making bad decisions. I fail to see the connection between taking something from one pilot group and giving it to a different pilot group because, as you say (and I concede), management made poor decisions.

And to compare W2's mine was 85,457.xx, with and average of 14-16 days off with commtable lines part of the time. That is 5th year pay with 1 month of training. I don't stay at the Ritz, mostly La Quinta but I haven't taken a pay cut and my airline just puchased 2 Majors. We are not sidestepping anyting, just working with the opportunity afforded to us.

Uhm. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm an F/O, not a captain. $85K/yr (at FULL contract pay rates) to fly as captain on a 70-90 pax jet is pathetic. Our reserve guys are guaranteed 12 days off. I'm not impressed, if that's what you were going for.

By "working with the opportunity afforded to us" do you mean the opportunity to better your lot in life by taking something from a different pilot group? I'd call that sidestepping.

Words have meaning in the English language. If we redefine "Seniority" to exclude experience, time in type, time in the industry, etc., then what's the definition? If we allow enrichment of one pilot group at the direct expense of another and then don't call it unjust enrichment (sidestepping), then what is sidestepping?

 

[StaySeated]

What is it you think seniority should be based on if not (1) Time in the industry; (2) Experience in the airplane; (3) Experience in progressively larger airplanes. I'm not a feeder airline newhire. I was a feeder airline newhire a little over 10 years ago.

How is it that I'm taking something from somebody else when what I want is to keep what I already have? I don't think I'm entitled to anything anyone else has earned. Just 100% of what I have earned.

So to continue your analogy, RAH would be like America West? Keep in mind that America West is a mainline carrier flying a minimum of narrowbody mainline equipment with the pay and lifestyle to match.

The pilots at both America West and USAir moved up through the ranks and were fortunate enough to be hired by a mainline carrier. Can the same be said for RAH pilots?

How, exactly, is RAH analogous to America West?

An America West newhire had a career expectation that included flying narrobody equipment in the continental US and the near-international destinations. They didn't have an expectation to fly widebody Airbus to Europe. The arbitrator recognized this distinction.

What career expectation does an RAH pilot have? To fly a smaller, 50-90 seat jet as a feeder service for the benefit and at the behest of a mainline carrier. I don't think even the most optimistic newhire expected a chance to fly an Airbus or have Airbus pay and lifestyle when s/he was hired by RAH.

Compare that to a Frontier pilot. Do you think any Frontier pilot had a career expectation to move backwards in his career by 5 to 10 years and take a seat in a 50-90 pax jet?



Standard junior high school debate tactics here. I never said I deserve everything. I said I deserve what I have earned. Nothing more, nothing less.

The question isn't whether my company made poor decisions. Fire the CEO, CFO, CIO, and a bunch of other O's if you want to punish the Company for making bad decisions. I fail to see the connection between taking something from one pilot group and giving it to a different pilot group because, as you say (and I concede), management made poor decisions.



Uhm. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm an F/O, not a captain. $85K/yr (at FULL contract pay rates) to fly as captain on a 70-90 pax jet is pathetic. Our reserve guys are guaranteed 12 days off. I'm not impressed, if that's what you were going for.

By "working with the opportunity afforded to us" do you mean the opportunity to better your lot in life by taking something from a different pilot group? I'd call that sidestepping.

Words have meaning in the English language. If we redefine "Seniority" to exclude experience, time in type, time in the industry, etc., then what's the definition? If we allow enrichment of one pilot group at the direct expense of another and then don't call it unjust enrichment (sidestepping), then what is sidestepping?

That was a pretty great post.

This is my favorite paragraph:

"How is it that I'm taking something from somebody else when what I want is to keep what I already have? I don't think I'm entitled to anything anyone else has earned. Just 100% of what I have earned."

If I can figure out how to make a sig I may use that for a while.

 

[likeitis]

That was a pretty great post.

This is my favorite paragraph:

"How is it that I'm taking something from somebody else when what I want is to keep what I already have? I don't think I'm entitled to anything anyone else has earned. Just 100% of what I have earned."

If I can figure out how to make a sig I may use that for a while.

I agree, great post.

 

[jacksjj]

So why don't you guys all stop whining on here like it's going to make a difference (it's not), realize the reality of the situation we are all faced with (we WILL all be integrated), and get on the seniority list as soon as possible (or quit) and help us get a respectable contract this time?

 

[OpenClimb]

You know, Jacksjj, that's a valid point. I was talking with my captain earlier today and we basically came to the same conclusion. All our belly-aching isn't going to change a darned thing. We might as well sit back, try to remain composed and see how it all comes out.

I think there are a bunch of people trying to get other thing businesses and jobs going on the side so they'll have options if things don't turn out well. It's a tough time to start a new business, but it's always wise to be proactive and at least give it the 'ol college try.

Personally, I'd love to keep my job flying airplanes. I've got a few other things in the hopper, but I'll make the final decision after all the dust settles on the integration issue.

 

[Popeye0537]

I don't need to impress you, you fly a BIG jet. That pay was on 50 seat rates that were negotiated(2002) when you were still at Mesa. Why do you think that F9 guys are going to be displaced to the 190's? Who said that....they will continue to operate the Airbuses with a rate increase and a contract extension.

So I'll ask you, you say you deserve what you earn. If you company goes tits up what do you deserve then? The right to be senior to me becasue you flew a bigger aircraft the was not economical enough to compete within the industry. According to your flawed logic, the short answer is YES. This is the case with Midwest not F9. Which are you more upset with, that fact that we bought a failing airline in the Midwest brand or the fact that with the purchase of F9 I might have the opportunity to fly an Airbus?
The only thing I may have sidestepped is interviewing with F9 to fly for them.