Rjet update

[carl p]

This really sucks for the MW and Frontier guys, two once proud companies reduced to this. Until you have watched a company you've poured your heart and soul into tank, you cannot really understand. The worst part would be waking up at a commuter 10-20 years older, light years behind in PAY/QOL. Best of luck F9 and MW guys/gals!

 

[OpenClimb]

I realize in this day and age of one handout after another, 'paying your dues' is not an accepted (or even familiar) concept. I'm sorry, but it's real, it's proper and there's nothing wrong with expecting it.

Items 1-3 don't really warrant a response.

4. Box 1 of my 2008 W-2 said $90,972.65. Keep in mind that this was with a 14.5% paycut for about 1/2 the year. 5th year pay before that.

5. QOL doesn't begin to compare with Mesa. Here are some numbers published in our monthly bid packet:

Month Avg Line Value Avg Days Off
Jan 77:13 15.64
Feb 75:58 16.20
Mar 76:52 16.29
Apr 77:12 17.31
May 76:13 16.48
Jun 76:48 16.26
Jul 79:26 16.86
Aug 78:O4 15.96
Sep 79:11 16.67
Oct 77:52 17.43

Keep in mind that these numbers are average. Captains and FOs bid on the exact same lines so these numbers apply to both seats. I'm in the top 1/3 of the FO list so I do a little better than the above, on average.

As another point of comparison, I'm just finishing the 3rd overnight on a 4-day trip. On this trip I've stayed at 2 Crowne Plazas (SFO and LGA) and a Hilton (MCI). Not that there aren't better hotels out there, but it's not too shabby, either. My most frequent hotel stays at Mesa were at the Holiday Inn in Farmington, NM and the Plaza Inn in Garden City, KS.

You are EXTREMELY out of touch if you think life as an FO at Frontier even VAGUELY resembles life at a crappy feeder airline like RAH or Mesa.

The point of me working at Mesa was to build time and experience so that I'd be qualified to move on to better jobs with a better quality of life. I interviewed at Frontier, started at the bottom, endured reserve, probationary pay, less-than-optimum schedules and now enjoy a pretty decent quality of life for decent pay. I'm OK with all that.

What I didn't do **and what I wouldn't have expected to do** was jump ahead of somebody who'd gone through all the above because Johnny O happened to have enough cash laying around to buy a mainline carrier.

Instead, had Johnny O purchased a mainline carrier, I would have been content with being stapled to the bottom of said mainline carrier's seniority list and thrilled with the idea of a guaranteed job, better QOL and better pay, **when my seniority allowed.**

That's the point the RAH folks are missing in all of this. Most all the pilots at Frontier and Midwest have done something to accumulate significant time and experience before coming to a mainline carrier. If someone is Junior at Midwest, it's most commonly because he first worked at a crappy feeder airline like Mesa or RAH and then interviewed and was hired by Midwest.

I don't feel any entitlement to your job. I don't want your job. You can have it. You can have exclusive upgrade rights to all the EMB-170 and/or 190's you want.

Now: If you can make the same statements with regard to my job and the equipment I'm flying, then we have no problem.

O god here we go again with the "I paid my dues" $hit......

1. F9 guys have a viable product, they will fair better in the integration then MW.
2. My jet is shiny, isn't yours?
3. We will keep our $37 hour job as long as people will do it for that.
4. What are you making now sitting right seat? What your QOL, probably as good as it was at mesa.
5. You are MORE to blame then pilots at RAH, you worked at MESA...friggen MESA. Pot meet kettle

When it comes to MW pilot group, I can say that I haven't run into any of the nay sayers like citation in MKE. Most of the guys left understand what they are faced with and are looking to see if we have any more info on whats going on. Citation is a cancer to RAH but he will most likely never see the flight deck of an RAH plane because he is very junior at MW and will be close to the bottom of the list when it comes together.

 

[RobCat]

So unless the guys from the recently-acquired Mainline carriers suck it up and thank RAH for the chance to fly in YOUR cockpit, they're a cancer? Wow.

Keep in mind that the Midwest guys (and the Frontier guys) have paid their dues and have moved beyond the world of feeder flying. You can better bet that each and every one of them will have a bad attitude if they end up swinging gear for the likes of YOU in YOUR cockpit.

Plan on having another 639 cancerous pilots if this is your plan (or hope) for the Frontier pilot group.

Keep in mind that Midwest pilots and Frontier pilots are far beyond the stage in our careers that we are just happy to have any old job flying a shiny jet. The only job we're interested in having is a job that's *worth* having. You all can keep your jobs that pay $37 for an FO and ~$85 for a captain. I had that job 10 years ago when I worked for Mesa.

I was calling Citations attitude a cancer, and poison. If you want to label yourself as such than so be it. Rather you like it or not if you come back your checks will be signed by someone at the likes of RAH. We are not worthy of you so please move on to the next company. The difference between the likes of you and us is that we are willing to work to make something better RAH. If you are not interested please move on. It is that easy.

 

[RobCat]

deleted

 

[RobCat]

deleted

 

[OpenClimb]

I was calling Citations attitude a cancer, and poison. If you want to label yourself as such than so be it. Rather you like it or not if you come back your checks will be signed by someone at the likes of RAH. We are not worthy of you so please move on to the next company. The difference between the likes of you and us is that we are willing to work to make something better RAH. If you are not interested please move on. It is that easy.

RobCat:

I realize you've run straight to the top of the moral high ground and have claimed it as your own, but:

What is it about pushing more experienced pilots to the bottom of a seniority list that IMPROVES RAH?

Your line of thinking would indicate that pushing a Midwest pilot to the bottom of a combined list would somehow indicate a desire to improve things at RAH. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any logical sense.

I'd love to see things improve at RAH. I'd love to see things improve at Mesa. However, I'd be disappointed if improving things at RAH means that life is dimished at Frontier by a proportionate share. In other words, I'm very supportive of the concept of improving your quality of life, but I do not accept the notion that Frontier or Midwest pilots ought to give you our quality of life to make it happen.

I would submit that having an automatic flow-through program such that all RAH pilots would eventually fly an Airbus and enjoy the QOL and pay associated therewith would constitute a significant improvement to RAH. This can be accomplished without taking a thing away from any current Airbus pilot. Interested? Or do you expect jump ahead of a bunch of Airbus pilots because you're at the top 1/3 of the RAH FO list with 3 years in the industry and almost 3000 hours?

The only "cancer" I see in any of this discussion is the notion that 'paying dues' is some BS concept. 'Paying dues' is just a convenient label for conversation. The concept embodied in the phrase is that you start out working less desireable jobs and hope to improve your lot in life by working your way to progressively more desireable jobs.

The idea of skipping steps in this progression is a cancer. It's a cancer of entitlement without hard work and sacrifice that manifests itself on a micro level via internet forums like Flightinfo and on a more public level in newspaper headlines each day.

You, sir, are the cancer. Not because you work for a certain company. Not because you have XXXX number of hours. Not because you make $XX,XXX. You are a cancer because you seek to sidestep hard work and sacrifice and, instead, take something from one pilot that you, yourself, have not yet earned.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

RobCat:

I realize you've run straight to the top of the moral high ground and have claimed it as your own, but:

What is it about pushing more experienced pilots to the bottom of a seniority list that IMPROVES RAH?

Your line of thinking would indicate that pushing a Midwest pilot to the bottom of a combined list would somehow indicate a desire to improve things at RAH. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any logical sense.

I'd love to see things improve at RAH. I'd love to see things improve at Mesa. However, I'd be disappointed if improving things at RAH means that life is dimished at Frontier by a proportionate share. In other words, I'm very supportive of the concept of improving your quality of life, but I do not accept the notion that Frontier or Midwest pilots ought to give you our quality of life to make it happen.

I would submit that having an automatic flow-through program such that all RAH pilots would eventually fly an Airbus and enjoy the QOL and pay associated therewith would constitute a significant improvement to RAH. This can be accomplished without taking a thing away from any current Airbus pilot. Interested? Or do you expect jump ahead of a bunch of Airbus pilots because you're at the top 1/3 of the RAH FO list with 3 years in the industry and almost 3000 hours?

The only "cancer" I see in any of this discussion is the notion that 'paying dues' is some BS concept. 'Paying dues' is just a convenient label for conversation. The concept embodied in the phrase is that you start out working less desireable jobs and hope to improve your lot in life by working your way to progressively more desireable jobs.

The idea of skipping steps in this progression is a cancer. It's a cancer of entitlement without hard work and sacrifice that manifests itself on a micro level via internet forums like Flightinfo and on a more public level in newspaper headlines each day.

You, sir, are the cancer. Not because you work for a certain company. Not because you have XXXX number of hours. Not because you make $XX,XXX. You are a cancer because you seek to sidestep hard work and sacrifice and, instead, take something from one pilot that you, yourself, have not yet earned.

Excellent post. One of the best I've read.

 

[RobCat]

I see what you are saying. If put in the same position I would hope for the same. Unfort. thats not the way the game is played in this industry. That may be the way we hope it to be myself included but its not. FWIW I'm not an advocate for stapling anyone.

 

[CitationLover]

I was calling Citations attitude a cancer, and poison. If you want to label yourself as such than so be it. Rather you like it or not if you come back your checks will be signed by someone at the likes of RAH. We are not worthy of you so please move on to the next company. The difference between the likes of you and us is that we are willing to work to make something better RAH. If you are not interested please move on. It is that easy.

and with that attitude you will never get decent rates or work rules.......

bedford loves guys/gals like you.

 

[BRA]

You think I am bad? Wait till you have a 20yr former MD80 CA who was home every night for the last 10 years.

I think our former MEC chair, with his job at HAL, will be representational of what you're going to see. Not a lot of Midwest pilots coming over. We don't have to make that decision though until we need to.

Again, you happily fly our routes, etc. but then call us the cancer and ask us to help "our" company. It's called "getting shi t on" in the real world. It doesn't produce kumbyah like you expect.

I don't think we have any 20 year guys at Allegiant yet but I have flown with some 10 year guys from Midwest. Some had more MD80 time than I had total time. One guy was flying Md80's when I was in the 4th grade. Every Midwest guy that I have met at Allegiant has been excellent to work with. If they are representative of all the Midwest pilots, then what a model pilot group. Considering the situation, I have been very impressed with how they carry themselves at Allegiant. Allegiant is a successful carrier but no doubt every Midwest pilot would have preferred to stay a Midwest pilot. A lot can be learned from these guys. I picked up a nonrev in Appleton to bring to his base and he had local chocolate bars for us....and the guy was employed by us! Pretty cool. No attitudes, no head butting, heads held high ready to work.

Pilots not standing in the doorway saying goodbye to the pax- While I think this is a nice thing to do, I hardly ever get a chance to do it at my job unless it is the last leg of the day. We do 35-40 minute turns and you are so busy trying to do your job right that it leaves little time to say good bye to all 135-150 people getting off the plane, and then the 135-150 getting back on. Checklists, notams, paperwork, walk around, bathroom break, clearance, FMS.....next thing you know it is time to go.

 

[Popeye0537]

RobCat:

I realize you've run straight to the top of the moral high ground and have claimed it as your own, but:

What is it about pushing more experienced pilots to the bottom of a seniority list that IMPROVES RAH?

Your line of thinking would indicate that pushing a Midwest pilot to the bottom of a combined list would somehow indicate a desire to improve things at RAH. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any logical sense.

I'd love to see things improve at RAH. I'd love to see things improve at Mesa. However, I'd be disappointed if improving things at RAH means that life is dimished at Frontier by a proportionate share. In other words, I'm very supportive of the concept of improving your quality of life, but I do not accept the notion that Frontier or Midwest pilots ought to give you our quality of life to make it happen.

I would submit that having an automatic flow-through program such that all RAH pilots would eventually fly an Airbus and enjoy the QOL and pay associated therewith would constitute a significant improvement to RAH. This can be accomplished without taking a thing away from any current Airbus pilot. Interested? Or do you expect jump ahead of a bunch of Airbus pilots because you're at the top 1/3 of the RAH FO list with 3 years in the industry and almost 3000 hours?

The only "cancer" I see in any of this discussion is the notion that 'paying dues' is some BS concept. 'Paying dues' is just a convenient label for conversation. The concept embodied in the phrase is that you start out working less desireable jobs and hope to improve your lot in life by working your way to progressively more desireable jobs.

The idea of skipping steps in this progression is a cancer. It's a cancer of entitlement without hard work and sacrifice that manifests itself on a micro level via internet forums like Flightinfo and on a more public level in newspaper headlines each day.

You, sir, are the cancer. Not because you work for a certain company. Not because you have XXXX number of hours. Not because you make $XX,XXX. You are a cancer because you seek to sidestep hard work and sacrifice and, instead, take something from one pilot that you, yourself, have not yet earned.

Wow you sound like a USair eastie guy with your entitlement to everything another company has gained. So just because you have more time in an aircraft then I do entitles you to hold senority over me?? Sorry thats not how it works. From your logic all the US east guys should hold the left seat in every West A/C, and the west guys should be happy just to have the ability to fly with such a seasoned pilot.

Your attitude is a cancer with the "I paid my dues, I deserve everything" when your company makes poor decisions. You and Citation would make good roomates.

And Vegas it's funny how much your attitude has changed from how happy you were to take a WN # and "sidestep" every other pilot who worked for an interview and now are disgusted to work for RAH.

And to compare W2's mine was 85,457.xx, with and average of 14-16 days off with commtable lines part of the time. That is 5th year pay with 1 month of training. I don't stay at the Ritz, mostly La Quinta but I haven't taken a pay cut and my airline just puchased 2 Majors. We are not sidestepping anyting, just working with the opportunity afforded to us.

 

[kf4amu]

And to compare W2's mine was 85,457.xx, with and average of 14-16 days off with commtable lines part of the time. That is 5th year pay with 1 month of training. I don't stay at the Ritz, mostly La Quinta but I haven't taken a pay cut and my airline just puchased 2 Majors. We are not sidestepping anyting, just working with the opportunity afforded to us.

If that's 170/175 pay thats embarassingly awful. Barely 1 dollar/seat/hr. You helped enable the opportunity for your airline to buy 2 others by giving up pay and work rules.

 

[likeitis]

If that's 170/175 pay thats embarassingly awful. Barely 1 dollar/seat/hr. You helped enable the opportunity for your airline to buy 2 others by giving up pay and work rules.

At first I have to admit that I thought wow not too shabby but then it came to me, he/she is in the left seat. No wonder BB had all that cash to buy two other airlines. That's only 10% above first year and 18% below second year pay my new employer.

 

[CitationLover]

And to compare W2's mine was 85,457.xx, with and average of 14-16 days off with commtable lines part of the time. That is 5th year pay with 1 month of training. I don't stay at the Ritz, mostly La Quinta but I haven't taken a pay cut and my airline just puchased 2 Majors. We are not sidestepping anyting, just working with the opportunity afforded to us.

95% of the 400 pilots at Midwest (the remaining 5% could claim that by your 5 yr time frame) could make that claim before the 170 takeover. At year five you're in the top 50% at RAH. See the difference?

By bragging about how the 717's (and their payrates) are going bye bye, you have shot yourselves and ANY opportunity at seeing those rates on the 190.

 

[OpenClimb]

Wow you sound like a USair eastie guy with your entitlement to everything another company has gained. So just because you have more time in an aircraft then I do entitles you to hold senority over me?? Sorry thats not how it works. From your logic all the US east guys should hold the left seat in every West A/C, and the west guys should be happy just to have the ability to fly with such a seasoned pilot.

What is it you think seniority should be based on if not (1) Time in the industry; (2) Experience in the airplane; (3) Experience in progressively larger airplanes. I'm not a feeder airline newhire. I was a feeder airline newhire a little over 10 years ago.

How is it that I'm taking something from somebody else when what I want is to keep what I already have? I don't think I'm entitled to anything anyone else has earned. Just 100% of what I have earned.

So to continue your analogy, RAH would be like America West? Keep in mind that America West is a mainline carrier flying a minimum of narrowbody mainline equipment with the pay and lifestyle to match.

The pilots at both America West and USAir moved up through the ranks and were fortunate enough to be hired by a mainline carrier. Can the same be said for RAH pilots?

How, exactly, is RAH analogous to America West?

An America West newhire had a career expectation that included flying narrobody equipment in the continental US and the near-international destinations. They didn't have an expectation to fly widebody Airbus to Europe. The arbitrator recognized this distinction.

What career expectation does an RAH pilot have? To fly a smaller, 50-90 seat jet as a feeder service for the benefit and at the behest of a mainline carrier. I don't think even the most optimistic newhire expected a chance to fly an Airbus or have Airbus pay and lifestyle when s/he was hired by RAH.

Compare that to a Frontier pilot. Do you think any Frontier pilot had a career expectation to move backwards in his career by 5 to 10 years and take a seat in a 50-90 pax jet?

Your attitude is a cancer with the "I paid my dues, I deserve everything" when your company makes poor decisions. You and Citation would make good roomates.

Standard junior high school debate tactics here. I never said I deserve everything. I said I deserve what I have earned. Nothing more, nothing less.

The question isn't whether my company made poor decisions. Fire the CEO, CFO, CIO, and a bunch of other O's if you want to punish the Company for making bad decisions. I fail to see the connection between taking something from one pilot group and giving it to a different pilot group because, as you say (and I concede), management made poor decisions.

And to compare W2's mine was 85,457.xx, with and average of 14-16 days off with commtable lines part of the time. That is 5th year pay with 1 month of training. I don't stay at the Ritz, mostly La Quinta but I haven't taken a pay cut and my airline just puchased 2 Majors. We are not sidestepping anyting, just working with the opportunity afforded to us.

Uhm. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm an F/O, not a captain. $85K/yr (at FULL contract pay rates) to fly as captain on a 70-90 pax jet is pathetic. Our reserve guys are guaranteed 12 days off. I'm not impressed, if that's what you were going for.

By "working with the opportunity afforded to us" do you mean the opportunity to better your lot in life by taking something from a different pilot group? I'd call that sidestepping.

Words have meaning in the English language. If we redefine "Seniority" to exclude experience, time in type, time in the industry, etc., then what's the definition? If we allow enrichment of one pilot group at the direct expense of another and then don't call it unjust enrichment (sidestepping), then what is sidestepping?

 

[StaySeated]

What is it you think seniority should be based on if not (1) Time in the industry; (2) Experience in the airplane; (3) Experience in progressively larger airplanes. I'm not a feeder airline newhire. I was a feeder airline newhire a little over 10 years ago.

How is it that I'm taking something from somebody else when what I want is to keep what I already have? I don't think I'm entitled to anything anyone else has earned. Just 100% of what I have earned.

So to continue your analogy, RAH would be like America West? Keep in mind that America West is a mainline carrier flying a minimum of narrowbody mainline equipment with the pay and lifestyle to match.

The pilots at both America West and USAir moved up through the ranks and were fortunate enough to be hired by a mainline carrier. Can the same be said for RAH pilots?

How, exactly, is RAH analogous to America West?

An America West newhire had a career expectation that included flying narrobody equipment in the continental US and the near-international destinations. They didn't have an expectation to fly widebody Airbus to Europe. The arbitrator recognized this distinction.

What career expectation does an RAH pilot have? To fly a smaller, 50-90 seat jet as a feeder service for the benefit and at the behest of a mainline carrier. I don't think even the most optimistic newhire expected a chance to fly an Airbus or have Airbus pay and lifestyle when s/he was hired by RAH.

Compare that to a Frontier pilot. Do you think any Frontier pilot had a career expectation to move backwards in his career by 5 to 10 years and take a seat in a 50-90 pax jet?



Standard junior high school debate tactics here. I never said I deserve everything. I said I deserve what I have earned. Nothing more, nothing less.

The question isn't whether my company made poor decisions. Fire the CEO, CFO, CIO, and a bunch of other O's if you want to punish the Company for making bad decisions. I fail to see the connection between taking something from one pilot group and giving it to a different pilot group because, as you say (and I concede), management made poor decisions.



Uhm. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm an F/O, not a captain. $85K/yr (at FULL contract pay rates) to fly as captain on a 70-90 pax jet is pathetic. Our reserve guys are guaranteed 12 days off. I'm not impressed, if that's what you were going for.

By "working with the opportunity afforded to us" do you mean the opportunity to better your lot in life by taking something from a different pilot group? I'd call that sidestepping.

Words have meaning in the English language. If we redefine "Seniority" to exclude experience, time in type, time in the industry, etc., then what's the definition? If we allow enrichment of one pilot group at the direct expense of another and then don't call it unjust enrichment (sidestepping), then what is sidestepping?

That was a pretty great post.

This is my favorite paragraph:

"How is it that I'm taking something from somebody else when what I want is to keep what I already have? I don't think I'm entitled to anything anyone else has earned. Just 100% of what I have earned."

If I can figure out how to make a sig I may use that for a while.

 

[likeitis]

That was a pretty great post.

This is my favorite paragraph:

"How is it that I'm taking something from somebody else when what I want is to keep what I already have? I don't think I'm entitled to anything anyone else has earned. Just 100% of what I have earned."

If I can figure out how to make a sig I may use that for a while.

I agree, great post.

 

[jacksjj]

So why don't you guys all stop whining on here like it's going to make a difference (it's not), realize the reality of the situation we are all faced with (we WILL all be integrated), and get on the seniority list as soon as possible (or quit) and help us get a respectable contract this time?

 

[OpenClimb]

You know, Jacksjj, that's a valid point. I was talking with my captain earlier today and we basically came to the same conclusion. All our belly-aching isn't going to change a darned thing. We might as well sit back, try to remain composed and see how it all comes out.

I think there are a bunch of people trying to get other thing businesses and jobs going on the side so they'll have options if things don't turn out well. It's a tough time to start a new business, but it's always wise to be proactive and at least give it the 'ol college try.

Personally, I'd love to keep my job flying airplanes. I've got a few other things in the hopper, but I'll make the final decision after all the dust settles on the integration issue.

 

[Popeye0537]

I don't need to impress you, you fly a BIG jet. That pay was on 50 seat rates that were negotiated(2002) when you were still at Mesa. Why do you think that F9 guys are going to be displaced to the 190's? Who said that....they will continue to operate the Airbuses with a rate increase and a contract extension.

So I'll ask you, you say you deserve what you earn. If you company goes tits up what do you deserve then? The right to be senior to me becasue you flew a bigger aircraft the was not economical enough to compete within the industry. According to your flawed logic, the short answer is YES. This is the case with Midwest not F9. Which are you more upset with, that fact that we bought a failing airline in the Midwest brand or the fact that with the purchase of F9 I might have the opportunity to fly an Airbus?
The only thing I may have sidestepped is interviewing with F9 to fly for them.