Rjet update

[OpenClimb]

An overall statement: No matter how many times you put words in my mouth suggesting I'm an arrogant BIG airplane pilot, I'm not. That's not the way I think. That's not the way I am. I enjoy being a pilot, but it doesn't define me as a person. In fact, most people know me in a capacity that's far removed from being an airline pilot and are, in fact, surprised to hear that I fly actual people in an actual airplanes to real airports... I still have relatives asking me when I'll get to start flying "people" in "real" airplanes. It's not something I go around advertising.

An example: Several years ago I flew a charter into my hometown airport. I've been hanging around there since about 1992 when I first had an airplane hangared out there. The line folks and the FBO management about fell over when I came down the stairs to do a walk-around and chit-chat with my brother and his family (who had come out to see the airplane). They never knew I was a commercial pilot at all. Every time they see me, I'm covered in grease, or epoxy (or sheetrock dust) because I'm always working on something in my hangar. The local instructors all kind of had a strange look on their faces as they replayed recent conversations in their minds from when they explained that the Bonanza on the For Sale board was a really high performance airplane and I really should consider something a little more sedate...

Please put your p*ssed off switch in standby mode for just a few minutes and read my post. I'm not nearly the prick you make me out to be.

A few facts so that others aren't misled.

1. Pursuant to the concessionary agreement adopted sometime near the first of the year (2009), we are scheduled to gradually work our way back to normal contract wages over the next 2-3 years. This was a done deal as of about 10 months ago when we agreed to a 10% paycut. The RAH deal doesn't change that.

The only increase we will see as a result of the RAH deal will be for the years we agreed to extend our contract. I guess we're supposed to keep the exact terms secret until the deal actually closes, but the annual increase is lower than the historic annual CPI uptick. Extending our contract was a concessionary move. You say it as if it was some sort of windfall for the F9 guys. Trust me. It isn't.

2. Who said F9 guys will be displaced? I won't spend time going back through all the FI dribble to pull quotes with [screen]names, dates and times. I've heard several different methods for integration. Most of them would put some RAH guys ahead of F9 guys. If a 7 year RAH guy has an opportunity to upgrade on an Airbus before me, I've been displaced, right? Or maybe 'displaced' isn't the right word. I've lost seniority in the Airbus fleet. If what you're suggesting is that this won't (or shouldn't) happen, then we have no issue.

3. If the company I work for goes out of business, I would expect to be out of a job. If a company I work for is purchased by another company, I would expect to be protected by the terms contained within my contract of employment. I cannot and will not speak for the Midwest guys, but I would suggest that the same logic would apply.

4. To be clear. I have no problem with anyone at RAH flying an Airbus. I'm sure (just like any pilot group--F9 included) 98% of the RAH pilots are perfectly capable of being trained to fly the Airbus. The remaining 2% (again, including F9) aren't capable of flying a kite, but they never seem to lose their airline jobs. We've all got 'em. The problem I have is the concept of an F9 pilot being denied seniority in the Airbus system in favor of an RAH pilot.

I have no problem with the concept of a straight flow through for RAH pilots. I.e. no interviews. The most recent F9 interview process was demeaning to the applicants and proved to be no more reliable in picking good employees than previous methods. I don't put a lot of stock in the interview process.

I think I'm pretty well done with this topic. As the wise Jacksjj suggested, we are merely pawns in the whole process. Losing sleep and spending hours typing on an internet message board won't change a darned thing.

The RAH deal could work out to be a fantastic opportunity for everyone. Or it could be a miserable failure. None of us knows for sure. I'm betting that we aren't as far apart in our views as words typed on an internet message board would make it seem.

Blue skys and best regards, my friend.

I don't need to impress you, you fly a BIG jet. That pay was on 50 seat rates that were negotiated(2002) when you were still at Mesa. Why do you think that F9 guys are going to be displaced to the 190's? Who said that....they will continue to operate the Airbuses with a rate increase and a contract extension.

So I'll ask you, you say you deserve what you earn. If you company goes tits up what do you deserve then? The right to be senior to me becasue you flew a bigger aircraft the was not economical enough to compete within the industry. According to your flawed logic, the short answer is YES. This is the case with Midwest not F9. Which are you more upset with, that fact that we bought a failing airline in the Midwest brand or the fact that with the purchase of F9 I might have the opportunity to fly an Airbus?
The only thing I may have sidestepped is interviewing with F9 to fly for them.

 

[jacksjj]

You know, Jacksjj, that's a valid point. I was talking with my captain earlier today and we basically came to the same conclusion. All our belly-aching isn't going to change a darned thing. We might as well sit back, try to remain composed and see how it all comes out.

I think there are a bunch of people trying to get other thing businesses and jobs going on the side so they'll have options if things don't turn out well. It's a tough time to start a new business, but it's always wise to be proactive and at least give it the 'ol college try.

Personally, I'd love to keep my job flying airplanes. I've got a few other things in the hopper, but I'll make the final decision after all the dust settles on the integration issue.

Thanks for your reply. As a RAH guy myself, I believe I speak for most of us when I say this situation sucks for all parties involved - as it appears - except us. I'll admit even I am excited for the opportunites of growth, but at what cost? None of us had anything to do with this, and the conversations on our flight decks often sound alot like "Id be extremely p155ed if it were me too - but let's hope those guys can come over and help us finally stand up to this company." .... And nothing else.

Everybody relax. High blood pressure can ruin these crappy "career expectations" before any of this will....

 

[aewanabe]

I've been a pretty staunch advocate for the RAH guys when they've been unfairly bashed. Popeye, you sincerely sound like an incredible jack-ass. I'm sorry, but 14 years seniority to make 85K in the left seat is piss-poor, and defending low pay-rates as a successful business model? You must be WH's best friend.

I made several very good friends at CHQ, and most of the "lifers" were excellent gentlemen and airmen who don't deserve the bashing and labeling. But Popeye, you sound like the 5 percenters who never ran checklists, were on everyone's avoid lists, and ended up as LCAs because you used to drink with S.H. Seriously, tone it down a bit maybe.

 

[aewanabe]

Basically, best of luck to all involved. I think first rights to ALL MKE vacancies for everyone on the YX list, and then maybe whatever your system seniority could hold outside MKE, would be fair. Something similar for F9 bubbas. Former RAH guys could bid into those vacancies after they were offered to former YX and F9 guys. 5-year fence around DEN and MKE, and then free-for-all after that, and note the current RAH contract doesn't allow bump-and-flush so nobody currently flying a Bus or E-jet gets kicked out. My .02 cents. I don't quite understand why so few RAH'ers have voiced support for the ********************ty situation the YX guys have found themselves in, although after months of bashing from the MKE crowd maybe I wouldn't either....

 

[Popeye0537]

I've been a pretty staunch advocate for the RAH guys when they've been unfairly bashed. Popeye, you sincerely sound like an incredible jack-ass. I'm sorry, but 14 years seniority to make 85K in the left seat is piss-poor, and defending low pay-rates as a successful business model? You must be WH's best friend.

I made several very good friends at CHQ, and most of the "lifers" were excellent gentlemen and airmen who don't deserve the bashing and labeling. But Popeye, you sound like the 5 percenters who never ran checklists, were on everyone's avoid lists, and ended up as LCAs because you used to drink with S.H. Seriously, tone it down a bit maybe.

14yrs to make 85K? Uhhhh What are you talking about? That was 5th year pay. Get it straight before you come on here and bash me.

Don't know who S.H. is so I'll leave that one alone. My point is that NO one deserves anything. You can work your entire career at a certian company but if that company goes down in flames the only right you have is to unemployment. Pilots bitch and moan about how they pay their dues and are deserved to all that comes with it. B.S. For example in Law Enforcement you are not entitled to a Sergeant position when you transfer to another county because you paid your dues as a beat officer, so why do pilots think that they are?

To answer the point of displacement at F9, I guess if a RAH pilot gets placed above you per arbitration your not really getting displaced your upgrade just got longer on the Airbus. You are still in the same A/C working the same schedules. At that point if you choose so you could bid "down"(as you call it) to the smaller jet and hold the left seat. You need only to look at B6's rates to understand that you can make a good livning flying a 190 or a 319....That is our challenge in these negotiations with BB and compnay with our contract.

 

[aewanabe]

Small mistake on my part; I thought I'd read you worked at RAH for 14 years. I seriously doubt 5th year 145 CA makes 85K, if you are you're working your tail off with 11 days per month off; my friends there aren't making near that, some of them on the 175.

At any rate, a little schadenfreude towards your future F9 colleagues would go a long way. If IBT 747 is truly working towards B6 rates for 175/190 flying I will be quite pleasantly surprised. Best of luck.

 

[likeitis]

14yrs to make 85K? Uhhhh What are you talking about? That was 5th year pay. Get it straight before you come on here and bash me.

Don't know who S.H. is so I'll leave that one alone. My point is that NO one deserves anything. You can work your entire career at a certian company but if that company goes down in flames the only right you have is to unemployment. Pilots bitch and moan about how they pay their dues and are deserved to all that comes with it. B.S. For example in Law Enforcement you are not entitled to a Sergeant position when you transfer to another county because you paid your dues as a beat officer, so why do pilots think that they are?

To answer the point of displacement at F9, I guess if a RAH pilot gets placed above you per arbitration your not really getting displaced your upgrade just got longer on the Airbus. You are still in the same A/C working the same schedules. At that point if you choose so you could bid "down"(as you call it) to the smaller jet and hold the left seat. You need only to look at B6's rates to understand that you can make a good livning flying a 190 or a 319....That is our challenge in these negotiations with BB and compnay with our contract.

I don't understand your point since it doesn't apply. Neither airline went down in flames. Because of these airlines you now have the ability to actually pay for your own fuel, gates, slots, advertising, marketing, etc. You now have a better chance at survival because of the hard work of these airlines employees over the past 25+ years. You are piggybacking on the most important thing in this deal, the brand recognition and reputation of both these brands built by the very people you are kicking to the curb or demoting to demeaning positions. The worst part is that all the customer satisfaction numbers are dropping because RAH employees don't have a clue of the history and the culture of Midwest. I'm sure this will also happen at Frontier when RAH takes full control.

 

[707eng]

Latest update from IBT

Teamsters


Local 747


A message from Captain XXXXXXXX


RAH Exco Chairman

September 21, 2009

On Wed and Thurs last week, we sat down with the company to discuss the current issues. Here is where we stand as of right now:


100 seat pay. The company contends that the new 190s are configured as 99 seat aircraft even though there are 100 seats installed. We disagree and we have filed a grievance on the issue. It is our contention that even though one of the seats has been deactivated it is still a 100 seat airplane and should be treated as such. The company also claims that the aircraft are nowhere near being booked full. They report losing money on the 190's and feel opening up the 100th seat will not gain any extra revenue at this time. We will continue to push forward for 100 seat pay rates. Clearly, the seat is installed on the aircraft.


We filed a grievance over the Frontier LOA that the Frontier pilots signed as a precondition to the sale of the airline. While it doesn’t specifically violate our CBA in the present set of circumstances, there is some language that could in future allow for a violation. The conversation we had with the company over this was curious to say the least. Their claim is that there is no violation, but they are concerned that our pursuing the grievance may have an impact on the operation. Our response to that other than, excuse me is that they probably shouldn’t make deals with other groups that violate our scope. We will continue to protect our pilot group on this as well.


We talked about trying to undo some of the damage done with the displacements to MKE. Realistically, these bids could have been run as a vacancy bid and that is what we recommended going forward.


We have decided not to suspend negotiations, as we are not interested in leaving Section 6 (of the RLA), but given the issues facing us right now, we have moved our next date for negotiations to January. This will give us some time to deal with the issues at hand and determine where we need to be when we sit down again. I would hate to negotiate a CBA only to have it instantly become irrelevant.


With everything that is going on right now with the CBA, we have submitted an LOA to the company concerning F/O pay rates. The LOA does not renegotiate the current rates, but it extends the scale out to 8 years. While this isn’t a great improvement, it will have some benefits to the affected F/Os. We have not heard a response to this from the company, but they didn’t disregard it out of hand when we presented it.


We are working with the company to stay on top of the travel benefit situation with our new brands. We are looking to get full travel benefits for all employees on these new airlines and so far the company has been cooperative. They did however tell us that while they are working on it, there are other things that will most likely get done first. We will be keeping track of this as we move along.


We have scheduled a global meeting with all affected parties and our management team for next month concerning the integration process. Now that we are reaching the global phase, we will be looking to hit this hard and fast. These lists need to be integrated sooner rather than later being mindful of course of the inherent problems if rushed.


Your EXCO will be in CLT this week working with the Local trying to decide where and how we should be going from here. I will have a detailed summary following.


We have identified the people not registered on the website and we will be sending out mailings to those pilots to get them registered. We have a few things we want to do electronically, but we need to have everyone available to do this. Please, if you fly with someone who is not registered let them know that we want their participation in the months to come.


We have accessed a website that we can use to electronically put out the new pilot survey and we will be putting that together in the upcoming weeks. Unfortunately, the format is different enough that we will not be able to simply cut and paste the draft we have been working on so we will be revamping the survey to work. Expect that soon.


Thank You for the continued support.

 

[aewanabe]

RAH guys, a simple two-sentence paragraph supporting support for your brethren at what's left of YX woiuld have spoken volumes. Instead, the EXCO decries the displacement vs vacancy award at MKE. Granted that is a violation of your contract, but it looks REALLY bad that IBT 747 has said nothing about solidarity with the YX pilots.

 

[Anonymous2]

Solidarity? What's that?