RJDC Update

[Boeingman]

Boeingman,
I agree that mr Surplus is very well educated, and well spoken on the matters of the rjdc. However, so is Flydeltasjets. So, why do you say something disparaging about Surplus, but not FDJ? I think they are both intellegent and well informed people, who use valid arguements to make their point. You, however, use name calling and innuendo, that make no points.

Name calling? Innuendo? I view it more as a wild guess towards him being one of the Plaintiffs. I guess his innuendo about my "ilk"making money at larger carriers doesn't count? Not that I am bothered about his obvious jealousy.

FDJ? Am I supposed to comment on each and every poster within the thread? FDJ and I have gone round on other subjects before.
Both of us have thick enough skin to realize it is for discussion only.

 

[Boeingman]

Well, I had stepped back from these discussions as there was nothing new being said, and nothing new to say. Now there is a legitimate issue being raised, with the obvious conflict of interest being perpetrated by ALPA in this latest US Air agreement, and (almost) everyone ignores it and returns to the same old "you don't get it," "no, YOU don't get it" arguments and name-calling.

How about getting back to the issue - namely, ALPA has negotiated a deal which will break (subvert? pervert?) contracts negotiated by ALPA on behalf of the US Air regionals, in order to benefit ALPA US Air mainline pilots. Forget for a moment that the RJDC even exists. How can you major pilots really look at this issue and not see that this is not legal , and simply not right? Many of you may or may not be right in guessing that the true number of RJDC supporters is quite small. But this new and disturbing problem just may swell the ranks.

There are some very disturbing things going on up in Fortress ALPA, when they think they can perpetrate this kind of insult on other ALPA 'brothers' with impunity. I am VERY concerned.

One question. Is USAir buying the RJ's?

 

[Boeingman]

Your guess is wrong but that's in keeping with much of what you've said.

Surplus is NOT one of the plaintiffs. I am involved for two reasons:

With your intensity I find that very difficult to believe. But I really don't care if you are or are not. I just pulled an all nighter at my club so my answers will be short and brief. (Yes, I am one of the ilk that I am concerned about bringing in as much money as I can.)

1) I'm a unionist at heart. I believe in unions and their purpose. I hate to see what has been a good union perverted and destroyed by misguided leaders who serve their own political interests and power, instead of the interests of the membership. I oppose any form of corruption in a labor union.

Those are fairly strong accusations and statements. One might construe them as libel and slander.

2) I'm a Comair pilot and my fellow pilots are being injured by the union's activities. I will do what I can to stand with them and attempt to right the wrongs.

My comment before is still on the table. All this money and energy then should be spent on forming a new Regional pilot union if you feel so wronged. If you think you have so many followers than this should not be a difficult task. Obviously you have the money to burn for a lawsuit.

Speaking of which, should you lose, and I think you will, my hope is ALPA countersues for legal fees.

I have nothing to gain personally from the outcome and nothing to lose. I'm just doing what I believe is right and I'm not concerned about whose mainline pin-feathers get ruffled. I enjoy defending the weak from the predatory behavior of the strong.

"I'm just doing". sans "I'm just participating in" Interesting choice of words you use here. Again, you do not sound like a supporter but a Plaintiff.

What do you think you are some Robin Hood of the regional pilots?

Question to you: Is standing up for what is right something that is lost on mainline pilots? Is $$ the only thing that motivates you? IF so, that's a sorry state of affairs. The founders of our union were not of that ilk.

Money, quality of life, days off. Yes, I'm part of that ilk. That is why I strived to get on with a major in the first place. You may think this RJDC is right, others feel the RJDC is despicable.

I've already fought a battle for what I believed was right BTW.

Just so you'll both know, a mainline job isn't something I want, need or envy. BTDT and got the T-shirt. It never swelled my head, thank God.

Well we don't get T- shirts, and the only thing swelled around here is my wallet. Going to bed now.

 

[RJFlyer]

One question. Is USAir buying the RJ's?

I don't know - do you?

I guess, technically, no USAir is not buying them. They will not be used at "USAir." My understanding is that they will go to Potomac Air (can you say alter-ego?), where they will all be flown by USAir furloughees, and scraps to the w-o's, where half will have to be flown by USAir furloughees.

Other questions: at what point do these furloughees get recalled to mainline? Will they? Then who flies the RJs at Potomac? I haven't seen this part of the plan. I've also heard that USAir, because of their accounting regarding the w-o's, can't spin them off in an IPO, but Potomac Air could be. Interesting way to get rid of a bunch of highly-paid, troublesome mainline pilots.

I can see the argument that USAir could be invoking 'force majeure' to be able to violate the contracts of the w-o's, but that doesn't mitigate the responsibility of ALPA to try to defend those contracts, not be a party in destroying them.

 

[surplus1]

With your intensity I find that very difficult to believe. But I really don't care if you are or are not.

Should I say I'm surprised? People believe what they want to believe. You're entitled to your opinion notwithstanding my efforts to confuse you with the facts. Yes, I am "intense" about this. A great wrong is being done to a lot of people without any legitimate justification. I want it stopped and I'm quite willing to volunteer my time and energy to that end.

Those are fairly strong accusations and statements. One might construe them as libel and slander.

You feel accused? Sorry, but if the shoe fits, wear it. I meant what I said, but I hope the shoe doesn't fit.

My comment before is still on the table. All this money and energy then should be spent on forming a new Regional pilot union if you feel so wronged. If you think you have so many followers than this should not be a difficult task. Obviously you have the money to burn for a lawsuit.

You should know that most Americans aren't quitters. When there is wrong and there is, we right it or at least we try. Running from the problem solves nothing.

My daddy taught me that I should face my problems head on. He also told me that my most valuable posession would always be my integrity and that I must never sell it at any price. To date I have followed his advice and I hope I can go West with those beliefs intact.

Anyway, since the allegations of the suit have already been committed, our departure might make you feel better but would not relieve you of the liability. The damage has been done. The time to consider departure is after the victory and you're correct, it would not be difficult.

Speaking of which, should you lose, and I think you will, my hope is ALPA countersues for legal fees.

If ALPA so desires, that's within it's rights. For such eventualities you buy insurance. You know, like the policy ALPA has in place to protect it from litigation. Of course, if you have no assets a victory would be moot.

"I'm just doing". sans "I'm just participating in" Interesting choice of words you use here. Again, you do not sound like a supporter but a Plaintiff.

I've already told you what I am. You may choose to belive or not believe as you prefer. Candidly, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

What do you think you are some Robin Hood of the regional pilots?

Well, I honestly hadn't given that any thought, but if you see yourself as the Sheriff of Nottingham or a member of his clan, I'd sooner be classed with Robin.

You may think this RJDC is right, others feel the RJDC is despicable.

Yes Sheriff, I do think it's right. Perhaps you could tell me what about it you think is despicable. There is no need to hold back, if I couldn't stand the heat I wouldn't be in the kitchen.

That's a gauntlet for you. Pick it up and tell me what's despicable about it.

I've already fought a battle for what I believed was right BTW.

Then I'm proud of you. Every man should be willing to fight for what he believes is right. That is precisely what I am doing right now.

The fact that you do not share my view makes me listen willingly to your perspective, if you have one. If you can show me where I am wrong, I will accept it and change. But remember, you have to show me. It isn't enough that you simply disagree. Disagreement will not alter my resolve. A well presented argument might. I don't have a closed mind. Can you say the same?

Well we don't get T- shirts, and the only thing swelled around here is my wallet. Going to bed now.

Hope you had a good night and slept well and no, I'm not being facetious. No T-shirt? Too bad. I got a T-shirt and a hat too with writing on it. It says "Whatever It Takes".

Now I'm going to bed. All the best to you and Fly Safe.

PS. In the good old days my wallet was swelled too. It's not any more but that's no big deal. I've figured out what's really important in life and what's peripheral.

 

[publisher]

clear

I think that it should be clear by now that everyone rides their own horse.

Someone on here said that morale was low as management wanted to do X. Well let me assure you that if there is a morale problem today it is with shareholders, insurance companies, and aircraft lease holders. It is clear to these people that management has lost their ability to manage to labor interests.

It is no less clear that ALPA serves but one master, themselves. In the end, they only do what protects their own interest just like they accuse management of doing. Like the PGA Tour, the members have long since lost control to the government of the organization.

Wholly owned and independent regionals operate to a different scheme of things. The benevolent dictatorship of the mainline carriers are no longer so understanding and the artificial constraints imposed on all are beginning to bend to the point of being broken.

The rjdc could win their case, it is certainly no secret that ALPA does not serve them. Then what. In the end, will the mainlines and ALPA not be in position to impose their will upon them.

All of this is about money. The power follows the money. The power of ALPA may be to the point that it destroys the golden goose by making the carriers contracts so costly that upstarts and small regionals take the marketshare.

My grandfather once said that successful people have one common trait. They have the resources to be powerful combined with the judgement not to use them. Not much success in this group of supposed leaders.

 

[enigma]

BRAVO

All of this is about money. The power follows the money. The power of ALPA may be to the point that it destroys the golden goose by making the carriers contracts so costly that upstarts and small regionals take the marketshare.

This is exactly why I have repeatedly said the the market WILL prevail, and that supply and demand ARE in control. If the pilots at the top want to maintain their high wages they have to figure out a way to educate/propagandize the newbees so that said newbees will not work for less. As long as there are those willing to work for less, in this unregulated market, they will drive the price to what they are willing to accept. It's too bad that most of those willing to give themselves away are only doing so, so that they can position themselves for the big money later; because their current wages are directly undermining the wages that they aspire to. Oh well. I don't really think that anything will change until we get some real leadership, and as you have correctly pointed out; ALPA (I assume that you mean national leadership) shows no inclination to take a position that helps anyone but their current leadership. See we really do agree.
regards
8N

 

[Boeingman]

Surplus:

I don't debate with you about my position because as I have followed the thread(s) I agree with the positions by Drag, FDJ and a few others against it. I really don't have the time to rehash their same arguments.

When I was talking about libel, I meant it as your very pointed statement about the ALPA leadership.

Insurance for lawsuits? Don't know, but I am sure this is costing the membership plenty, and not just in dollars.

I notice you did not comment about the forming of a regional union. In my opinion, with your arguments and reasons to date for the RJDC, it would seem to me this would be the most honorable and productive thing to do.

The only people that make out in lawsuits are the attorneys.

 

[Slim]

Boeingman,

I'll respond to the suggestion of forming another union. I posted these similar remarks on another thread.

Leaving ALPA to form another union isn't feasible at this time. The reasons follow:

1. Many of us don't want to form another union because we choose not to leave in the middle of a fight. I spent over 20 years in the military and that attitude doesn't sit well.

2. Leaving ALPA to form another union requires money. Based upon some very rough numbers, I estimate the start up cost to be between three and four million dollars for the first 12-18 months of operations. The seniority list at Comair numbers around 1,500. I believe the number of pilots at ASA is 1,100-1,200. Of the combined numbers, 170-200 pilots are apprentice, non-dues paying members. Therefore, the critical mass to support the start up of a new union doesn't exist. I estimate the critical mass number to be around 3,000.

3. The RJDC consists of pilots from Comair, ASA and other carriers. I believe there are some SkyWest pilots in the membership. Unlike the AA pilots who left ALPA in the 1960s, it's far more difficult to get multiple pilot groups to do what you recommend.

Like Surplus1, I'm at my second carrier and have been employed by a major (not as a pilot). I have no desire to return. That has to do with a number of factors, few of which relate directly to money.

Fly safe!

 

[publisher]

enigma

Enigma.

The part to the equation that has been left out is the paying customer. They have shown a major reluctance to pay what needs to be paid to support the infrastructure of the large carriers.

What is more likely needed is redistribution of the pot which almost never happens. That is the problem.

If you suddenly got everyone on the bottom of the pay scale up to a parity with the large carriers, I believe that the result would be less opportunity, not more, and less flying, not more.

What happens when there is an inbalance of power is that the wage on top gets out of proportion to the task.

Let me give you an example from a different area. I have a phone receptionist and that position is part of my union contract. Each year that psotion gets its mandatory wage and seniority bumps. The next thing you know we are paying a telephone receptionist $30k per year when the fact is that the task is a $14000 a year job and we could get people all day to fill the job.

Customers are willing to fly so much for so much. There are very few costs that the airline can finitely control. Good managment can hedge fuel costs, make good deals on aircraft, have good terminal leases, etc. Crew costs can be X part of that and it is done by averaging across the board by type. If that costs go up, so has to the willingness of the public to pay the fare.

The guys on top you refer to know that factor and know that they benefit from the new people not having the votes. In life, the last guy on the train rarely cares if the guy behind him makes it.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: All Good Logical Questions

I honestly don't know how many people contribute to the RJDC (there are no "members", just supporters).

The RJDC consists of pilots from Comair, ASA and other carriers. I believe there are some SkyWest pilots in the membership.

I'm confused. But apparantly I'm not the only one.

 

[Slim]

Trainerjet,

What are you confused by?

The RJDC, and its supporters, is not made up of Comair pilots alone. There are several ASA pilots involved. The website, I believe, is the contribution of a SkyWest pilot. I can't verify if there are pilots of other carriers who finacially support the RJDC. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there are other airline pilots involved.

Fly safe!

 

[enigma]

Re: where did I go wrong?

Enigma.

The part to the equation that has been left out is the paying customer. They have shown a major reluctance to pay what needs to be paid to support the infrastructure of the large carriers.

I'm a little lost here, I have been offering an explanation based upon proven marketplace economics, market economics means (by definition) that the marketplace will determine the allocation of assets/services. Now you try to say that the paying pax has been left out of the equation; heck, what do you think the market is? I've said before, I think that you are talking micro and I'm talking macro.

I've tried to say this before, but apparently unsuccessfully, so I'll try again. In an unregulated environment, with no bars to the entry of new competitors, ( the free market) supply and demand will determine price. The example that I have used repeatedly is AirTran and DAL. AirTran recognized a demand (lower fares) and offered a product to supply that demand. DAL with its high cost structure can't offer the same product. (and frankly, I'm not totally sure that they want to.) That's the free market. The customer drives everything.

Now, on to how that affects us. DAL's high costs don't allow for it to service the lower end of the available seat market. Airtrans costs do. Even though the DALALPA has a contract that is an effective barrier to entry to any pilot competitors (ALPA has a legal monopoly on pilots for DAL), they can't control the supply of pilots to DAL's competition, Airtran. AirTran has accessed the pool of labor that will work for less and is able to keep its costs lower. Eventually DAL will shrink, (it's already happening) while the lower cost carriers will expand. The total available seat market will probably expand because there are some pax who demand first class service instead of low costs, but the carrier who supplies the product demanded by the largest segment of the market will be the largest. And the pilot who provides his service at the market price will not make very much, until he no longer has any competition for the job. Then he will raise his price until the reward entices new entrants into the job market. Once that equilibrium point is reached, the free market will have determined (without governmental intervention) the most efficient allocation of assets. I am not arguing for a job market manipulated by the union scale, I am arguing for a job market that is not artificially depressed by the continued entrance of uninformed/mislead wannabees.
What I continue to attempt to accomplish is, to make new entrants into the pilot market aware that their desire to work for nothing in order to reach the big money is specifically undercutting their ultimate opportunity to ever get any big money because they are driving the pilot wage market down.

I've suffered too many interuptions for this to flow well, sorry.

On to some of your specific comments. You said, "The next thing you know we are paying a telephone receptionist $30k per year when the fact is that the task is a $14000 a year job and we could get people all day to fill the job." To which I say: you are attempting to spin the debate. We are not talking about an industry where the people at the bottom are working for what the job is worth. The pilots at the bottom of this industry are working for far less in hopes of attaining the top. I'll bet you twenty bucks and will come see you in Lauderdale to deliver it, if you can find a secretary who will work for $7000 a year and pay you $10K for the opportunity to work in your presence for a few years so that he/she can gain that valuable selectric time that he needs to move on to his/her dream job. You are attempting to look at the wannabee pilots in the light of normal job applicants and they are not. They are dreamers, who in large, don't know much about the inside of the industry. Except for what they read in the propaganda press, I didn't say his name I'll bet another twenty that the willingness to work for almost nothing would evaporate if there was an economic law stating that you could never make more than triple your entry level wage. Simply, these people work for nothing in anticipation of a future reward. Apply that circumstance to your secretarial situation and see what happens.

Next, you wrote, "The guys on top you refer to know that factor and know that they benefit from the new people not having the votes. In life, the last guy on the train rarely cares if the guy behind him makes it." I'm beating my head against the wall here my friend. Your example quit having validity in 1979. Those new people do have votes. They can go to work for another carrier, and they are. Refer to my DAL/AirTran example. Only within the rank and file does your example hold water and it's an insult to a whole lot of senior union members who do attempt to maintain the profession for those who are yet to come. For example, I'll bet that the UALMEC will negotiate a "free" return from furlough policy for all furloughees. They will ensure that all who were on the seniority list before the furlough will be recalled, even those who "resigned" to take another job. Sort of like when they demanded and obtained the rehire of the newhires who refused to cross the picketlines in their last strike. (mid 80's if memory serves)

Finally, I don't want to put everyone at the bottom of the pay scale on the top. I just want the bottom guys to stop dragging the pay scale down because they are in a hurry to get to the top. You state that the senior pilots rarely care about the junior pilots.
I believe that it is the junior pilots who don't care. Speaking broadly of course, because I know many who do care. Most wannabees don't seem to mind stepping all over others on their way up. I remember numerous posts made by pilots who defended their PFT decision because the only thing that mattered to them was how quick they got to a major. I know that you want to attract the best and the brightest, but if you get what seems to be your wish, (busted unions) the best and brightest won't even come close to this industry. Why would the best and brightest want to enter an industry where they possess no control over their own lives? I guarantee you that in absence of union rules, management would have every pilot sitting at the airport for 18 hours a day seven days a week. There would be no guarateed days off, no ability to bid for your schedule, etc. I have worked for a nonunion 121 operator and they treated us just like they treated the airplanes, as if we were at their beck and call 24/7.

later
8N , editing will most likely be required

 

[RJFlyer]

Enigma,

Most of what you said is very true. To expand on your theme, though - if the 'uninformed/mislead wannabees' are willingly driving the entry level wages down, they are doing so in order to be able to one day get to their Dream Job at the majors. The only reason it is their Dream Job is because they will get to fly big airplanes and (more likely) because they will eventually get paid a LOT of money to do it. So it could be reasoned that ultimately what is driving down compensation at the bottom is the extraordinary compensation at the top. If it were not so high, maybe the dreamers wouldn't be willing to put up with the crap, repeatedly, for so long.

Just a thought.

 

[surplus1]

Enigma - Part 1 of 2

Surplus, First let me say that I can be convinced. I am opinionated, but my ego is not such that I am unable to change my mind and accept that I was mistaken. I'll continue to debate this name issue until y'all change my mind or you give up; or I change your mind.

We have a lot in common. I too am opinionated and, I can be convinced by logic and by facts. I'm old enough to know that I have been wrong many times before and undoubtedly will be again in the future. I can both acknowledge and accept that. Up to this point you haven't given me a strong enough reason why the name should be changed to alter my position (and I don't give up easy). Let's explore the details.

I would submit to you that your statement is only an opinion. How do you know that ALPA would not be doing what it is if there were no RJ's?

I readily concede that it is only an opinion. That opinion however, is not PFA (plucked from air). I don't know how familiar you may be with the series of actions taken by the ALPA since the introduction of the RJ. While I may not be privy to ALL of them, I have been directly exposed to many; those that are public and those that are not. As a result of that exposure to both covert and overt actions and rhetoric, I have formed the opinion that the ALPA would like to eliminate the use of RJs if possible.. Failing that, they would like to have them flown by mainline pilots. Should both prove impossible the objective becomes the imposition of so many restrictions as to severely limit their use, i.e., new Scope.

The visible manifestations are reflected externally in what ALPA attempts to achieve at the mainline bargaining table with respect to this class of aircraft. Though less visible, what ALPA fails to pursue and therefore does not achieve at the regional bargaining table is the other side of that coin. The internal campaign against the RJ is invisible unless you happen to be directly exposed to the politicians that run the Association and their actions or lack thereof.

Further evidence that supports the idea is the fact that ALPA took none of these actions against the subcontractors or "wholly owned" as long as they only flew the turboprops that Scope exemptions were created (by ALPA) to permit. Unlike the idea that RJs are taking mainline jobs, this is not paranoia.

You wrote, "The agenda of the ALPA is intent on stopping the RJ." Unless I have missed something, and it is quite possible that I did, ALPA has not stated what you are attributing to them.

You are quite right, ALPA has made no such statement. What is more the ALPA will never make such a statement. That would be political suicide. There are billions of dollars involved in the manufacture, sale, deployment and operation of this class of aircraft. In reality regional pilots are the smallest stakes in the game. If ALPA were ever to reveal publicly its agenda to stop the RJ, a mountain of opposition would descend from forces far greater than ALPA's. A few regional pilots are not the only folks affected by what ALPA is trying to do and they are by far the weakest element in the equation. Common sense dictates that you don't attack the strongest link. ALPA is people. There are many things I could call those people, but stupid is not among them.

Please go to Part 2