RJDC Litigation Update

[CarjCapt]

I would honestly love to hear someone's solution to this little dillema.

Somebody clear it up for me. I need the Cliff's Notes version of the RJDC. In ONE SENTENCE explain to me what the goal of the organization is -- and I hope to god it isn't the elimination of scope, because that just doesn't solve the problem as I see it... in fact, it causes more.

FurloughedAgain:

To answer your question in one sentence would be difficult, if not impossible.

This situation today started in Jan of 2000 with the buyout of CMR by DAL.

Shortly after that the ASA (already wholly owned) and CMR MECs filed a PID with ALPA National. That action by ASA/CMR angered Delta's MEC and the result was, as you know, not no but hell no.
Then to add insult to injury the DAL MEC tried to negotiate for the 70 seat RJ to mainline. They didn't get it so they limited it to 57 airframes. Negotiating in behalf of the ASA/CMR pilots without representation or in other words by remote control.

In a nutshell that caused the formation of the RJDC.

RJDC doesn't want elimination of Scope just scope that would include ASA/CMR/DAL and excude all others. No outsourcing period even getting back the wide body jobs that are done by others today. In other words all flying at Delta Air Lines be done by DAL/ASA/CMR pilots.

You might be able to answer the scope question yourself by going back to the spring of 2000 and think about what would the consequences would be if the PID was accepted by all and a negotiated settlement between ASA/CMR/DAL. There wouldn't be any RJDC. All flying would be done by ASA/CMR/DAL pilots except for the wide body code shares. How many furloughed pilots would there have been? Would DAL mgt be able to whipsaw one against the other?

One could speculate forever what would have been. My question is what do we do now? What do you think would be the best thing to do keeping in mind that no one group recieve a windfall and that everyone be treated fairly, just as the ALPA by-laws indicate? Just food for thought.

 

[Otto]

General,
I'm not a rabid supporter of the RJDC but I think they have a very valid arguement. They simply want Comair pilots to have an equal representative at the table with Delta (the REAL owner) when policies are being discussed that could directly impact them. What's so wrong about that? It's the fair thing but ALPA won't allow it.
I've heard you say that if it were up to the RJDC, Delta would have a few 777's for international hops and the nothing else but RJ's. Yet you also are constantly saying (correctly) that with full demand, RJ's cannot compete with mainline aircraft. Seems to me you are contradicting yourself and making the RJDC's case for them. Management isn't stupid...they also know mainline aircraft are more competitive so that means the RJDCs argument is right...you don't need to artificially scope airframes by size because the RJ's scope themselves economically. All they want is equal representation and the elimination of scope that says you can only have xx amount of seventy seaters and so on. These two issues are what I see the RJDC as being all about.
Otto

 

[General Lee]

Otto,

Nobody should want mainline planes at regional rates----that is what the RJDC will get if it succeeds. They want the "right" to negotiate for themselves with the company---and I think that is great except when it comes to flying larger airplanes and taking away from mainline. Is this really so hard for everyone to understand? The guys that are for this know that they will NEVER get on with a Major, and will try to spoil it for everyone else---especially at Comair and ASA etc.....They will keep people there longer. We have almost run past the 70 seater stage and way past the 50 seater stage now after the return of the passengers--and we need bigger planes to combat the lower fares (to spread out the costs). So, we should take some cuts and then order some 100 seaters, right? Comair wants them---that is why we are fighting this. The jobs created by the addition of 100 seaters and retirements will bring back the furloughs eventually and add new jobs---better paying and overall jobs---at Delta---not Comair.


CarjCapt,

The problem is that the 70 seaters are now flying to places that used to support mainline flights, and COULD again---but our Marketing people can't see that. Could you fly a 100 seater or a 737 between DFW and JFK? I would think you could.....Can Marketing sell more than 70 seats a day between those cities? You would think so.... We need 100 seaters at Delta--it is the "newest" trend--and probably a good fit in the future. Well, let's take some pay cuts, and order some. But wait---the Comair RJDC people want them for themselves--even though we have over 1000 people on the street (with no help from Comair by the way---mainly ASA and Chataqua). Hmmmmm. Oh, that's right---those RJDC guys know they can't get on with Delta anyways---it makes sense now......


Furloughed again,

I know you can see both sides---and I think the line should be at 100 seaters. Now we have to be careful with allowing unlimited 70 seaters because look what the company has done so far with the 70 seaters---replaced many many routes (DFW--SNA, ONT, OAK, DCA, JFK, DEN) that used to fly Delta mainline jets. We have 3000 less pilots now than we did pre-9-11 (most retired, 1060 furloughed still)---and those higher paying jobs are leaving. I think there should be some relief for the 70 seaters---but not unlimited. I think Dalpa will eventually fly the 100 seaters for less anyways----it will become the next Delta Express in terms of different pay scales here. They won't give those up----nope.


Xremeflyer,

If the company can go bankrupt over just the difference in pilot pay--something is wrong in management. Doubt it, and so do the analysts. We have an open offer to negotiate---and they probably could have 15-20% right now--equating to almost $500 million a year in savings NOW. Let's see how they react.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[wil]

All Delta flying done by Delta pilots(Mainline, AS/CMR). Combine CMR/ASA let the furloughs keep DOH for pay and bene's and let them fly the line till they can return to mainline. Kill the portfolio. This is the only solution to our problem IMHO.

 

[Flash 7]

I agree!!

One list is the only solution guys.

This will never work unless we unite!!!! Period!!!!!!!!!!

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Generally,

When I said what I said about the location of some people's heads I was not only referring to your pay scale. As you said there is a lot more to it than that. I only meant to suggest that there are a lot of folks out there from carriers past and present who thought like you do about their retirement( although most have enough class to not flaunt their good fortune in the faces of those less fortunate) who are now walking the municipal courses on twilight fees rather than going the country club route! You could be that guy too you know!

As for your anti RJDC rhetoric, you marginalize your self and what you have to say when you over simplify the argument and let your emotions dictate by saying things like:

Nobody should want mainline planes at regional rates----that is what the RJDC will get if it succeeds.

The guys that are for this know that they will NEVER get on with a Major, and will try to spoil it for everyone else

Hmmmmm. Oh, that's right---those RJDC guys know they can't get on with Delta anyways---it makes sense now......

It's like trying to reason with a two year old. Kind of pointless.

The courts on the other hand are the one place where that kind of juvenile finger pointing and name calling are not tolerated and the battle is waged with logic, evidence and legal precedent. I can see why you guys are concerned about the outcome of this thing. You have that country club lifestyle to maintain and it just would not do if the peasants stood up and demanded something for themselves. Then who would caddie for you?

AMF

 

[FlyComAirJets]

those RJDC guys know they can't get on with Delta anyways---

Well General, if that's the case. Why haven't we just rolled over and taken that legendary flow through opportunity that was allegedly offered us. Oh wait, it's because we expect to be 777 Kaptains, right?

 

[CarjCapt]

The problem is that the 70 seaters are now flying to places that used to support mainline flights, and COULD again---but our Marketing people can't see that. Could you fly a 100 seater or a 737 between DFW and JFK? I would think you could.....Can Marketing sell more than 70 seats a day between those cities? You would think so.... We need 100 seaters at Delta--it is the "newest" trend--and probably a good fit in the future. Well, let's take some pay cuts, and order some. But wait---the Comair RJDC people want them for themselves--even though we have over 1000 people on the street (with no help from Comair by the way---mainly ASA and Chataqua). Hmmmmm. Oh, that's right---those RJDC guys know they can't get on with Delta anyways---it makes sense now......

Key words Jeneral Lee "used to" support 737 and you are correct that could happen again. I disagree that our Marketing can't see that, they can and that is why your 737-200 isn't flying between DFW and JFK. By the way you don't have a clue what our Marketing could or could not do. That is why your a pilot and they aren't.

We at CMR would be fools to not want to fly 100 seat aircraft. We also know that you wanted to fly 70 seat aircraft back when you were negotiating your current contract. Do you really think you will lower the bar to get to fly 100 aircraft or will CMR pilots raise the bar to do the same.

You have over 1000 people on the street because of your MEC. Plus we the pilots (CMR) don't have any control over our management to hire or not hire with or without giving up seniority, but you know that.

You know for once (and only once) you are correct about one RJDC guy I can't get on with DAL Mainline and it does make sense, I've got less than 7 months to go and I don't think you'll be hiring ole phat phart short timers.

 

[Heavy Set]

Why can't people see that you are replacing high paying jobs with lower paying jobs? I thought most people were striving to be paid MORE vs. less... I guess I was wrong. If Comair pilots are flying 737s one day, I HIGHLY doubt that the Comair pilots will even be earning Southwest wages - that's the big problem here - the regionals have already set the bar lower.

I think the General is right here - there are a minority of power-hungry, senior Comair pilots who seem to be ruining it for the junior majority - there won't be any high paying Delta jobs in the future for anyone to go to if this trend continues - and that's the truth...

 

[CarjCapt]

Why can't people see that you are replacing high paying jobs with lower paying jobs? I thought most people were striving to be paid MORE vs. less... I guess I was wrong. If Comair pilots are flying 737s one day, I HIGHLY doubt that the Comair pilots will even be earning Southwest wages - that's the big problem here - the regionals have already set the bar lower.

I think the General is right here - there are a minority of power-hungry, senior Comair pilots who seem to be ruining it for the junior majority - there won't be any high paying Delta jobs in the future for anyone to go to if this trend continues - and that's the truth...

Heavy:

What I do see is the market place replacing high paying jobs at AA, AAA, NWA and U with lower paying jobs. DAL is next.

Some of the regionals have raised the bar (CMR) and refused to lower it and supporting their ASA brother to raise it again. Unlike some others in the regional industry.

It is highly unlikely that CMR will be flying 737s but it is very likely they will see a 80 to 90 seat aircraft on the property if for no other reason because the DAL pilots will allow further outsourcing of their flying. Instead of integrating the groups and making sure all DAL flying are done by ASA/CMR/DAL pilots. It is a bed they have made for themselves.

You know those small number of power hungry senior pilots have exactly the same vote as the majority junior pilots and with that they could control the MEC. What would you like for the Majority junior pilots to do for you?

 

[XRMEFLYER]

the regionals have already set the bar lower

For who? You?

Why can't people see that you are replacing high paying jobs with lower paying jobs

It's called capitalism! Get used to it!

there won't be any high paying Delta jobs in the future for anyone to go to if this trend continues

The sky is falling the sky is falling!

AMF

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

You have over 1000 people on the street because of your MEC. Plus we the pilots (CMR) don't have any control over our management to hire or not hire with or without giving up seniority, but you know that.

You know for once (and only once) you are correct about one RJDC guy I can't get on with DAL Mainline and it does make sense, I've got less than 7 months to go and I don't think you'll be hiring ole phat phart short timers.

..and I suppose that if the Delta MEC capitulated, the Comair geniuses on these boards would be tripping over themselves saying how the Delta pilots are lowering the bar.

You only have six months left? Thank God. One more down, several to go.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Thedude]

You boys at the RJDC just dont get it....its not about the size of the airplane but the size of the paycheck and Comair IS NEVER going to be willing to pay mainline rates.

 

[InclusiveScope]

You boys at the RJDC just dont get it....its not about the size of the airplane but the size of the paycheck and Comair IS NEVER going to be willing to pay mainline rates.

Actually Mr. Dud, I do get it. Your right, it SHOULD NOT be about the size of the airplane. However ALPA and the mainline MECs have decided that treatment and fairness ARE based solely on the SIZE of the aircraft. That is exactly how we got in this predicament. At first, if you flew 19 seat turboprops, you weren't a real airline pilot. Then if you flew 30 seat turboprops, you weren't a real airline pilot. Then if you flew 50 seat jets, you weren't a real airline pilot. Then if you flew 70 seat jets, you weren't a real airline pilot.

Above my desk, hangs a picture of a Delta DC-4. This is a 48 passenger propeller plane that was flown by "major" airline pilots. What happened Mr. Dud? Who dropped the ball here - it wasn't the ASA and CMR pilots. It wasn't RJDC. Who was it Mr. Dud?

Inclusivescope
"Regional" pilot with a "Major" attitude

 

[FlyComAirJets]

The DAL MEC does not have to "capitulate," they just need to realize that we all need to work with, not against, one another. Backstabbing fellow employees, er FELLOW WORKERS, behind closed doors is not conducive to trust. Comair alone has hired 570+ pilots since 9/11, ASA and CHQ have hired many hundreds more. That could have mitigated all their furloughees. Not one ASA/CMR pilots would be flying at mainline nor would they for many years. And yet, the DAL still can't find his way to the door. Sad, actually.

It's nice to know that you aren't a "Comair genius." I like how you made that clear distinction and separated yourself from that.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

It figures.

But if the lawsuit has no merit, as these clowns whine, then why do they have to stoop to all these tricks? Me thinks they do protest too much.

 

[InclusiveScope]

I agree my good friend...they do protest too much. They are now pulling the posts off the ALPA boards. Much grease is being applied to a problem that is "without merit"

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

The DAL MEC does not have to "capitulate," they just need to realize that we all need to work with, not against, one another. Backstabbing fellow employees, er FELLOW WORKERS, behind closed doors is not conducive to trust. Comair alone has hired 570+ pilots since 9/11, ASA and CHQ have hired many hundreds more. That could have mitigated all their furloughees. Not one ASA/CMR pilots would be flying at mainline nor would they for many years. And yet, the DAL still can't find his way to the door. Sad, actually.

On the point of one list, I agree. As to the blam I do not.

It's nice to know that you aren't a "Comair genius." I like how you made that clear distinction and separated yourself from that.

That is correct, I am not a "Comair genius", as I typed it. It was a sarcastic phrase which described the types of our group who frequent this board. Like you. The posts which are before this one support that insight. I see it daily on the line. Perhaps you guys can come up with another quiz, or something else which has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Freight Dog]

How would RJDC force Delta Air Lines management to merge CMR/ASA into Delta mainline? Just curious....

 

[FlyComAirJets]

The RJDC cannot force DAL management to merge CMR/ASA into Delta mainline. Their's is a duty of fair representation case against their own union for failing to fairly represent CMR and ASA pilots. It's that simple.

In 2000, it was the application of the PID that sought to equitably merge ASA, CMR, and DAL as part of a time-proven internal union process. Then they would have gone to management and negotiated a settlement.

CMR and DAL were deep into the Section 6 amendment of their respective contracts at the time so to imply that DAL management would never, ever agree to such a thing is ridiculous. During negotiations, everything is open.

Now, flash forward to 2004. ASA is now in their own contract amendment negotiations. CMR pilots were recently approached by their pseudo managers regarding contract relief and, of course, DAL management has been carping for astounding concessions for months from mainline pilots.

With deepening losses, DAL is desperate to get concessions from us. They tried to dangle "growth" aircraft before us but we did not bite (thanks Chautauqua). If management wants to keep the whipsaw status quo more than contractural relief, that's just fine with me. If on the other hand, they wish to change their current operating model (see, I avoided calling it a paradigm shift!), then they can always come talk with us but in this quid pro quid negotiations world, they will need to to offer something in return.

Now, what do you suppose that could be?