RJ Vs. Alpa

[Dieterly]

Sorry FDJ, No, I'm for cabotage, I don't want a "mexican" moving company come into US and out bid a US "moving" company. (Substitute "moving" with "airline", if you like). But at the same time, I want a to be able to buy a ticket as cheap as possible, hence "the "market" will finally decide what type of equipment will be flown on certain routes, and by whom" For example, if I have trip out JFK, and my company asks me if I want a ticket sent to me, or if I can get one by myself and then later on get re-imbursed, I pick option 2, because now I buy a JetBlue ticket, and with that I get Live TV, nice and friendly F/A's, clean a/c's, on time performance etc. Those are things DA or AA can't match, at least not out of MCO. I'm sure you are not worried about what a "consumer" think, but at the end of the day, they control your life at Delta more than you think.

Around 35% of Florida Gulf's (Mesa) -94 route structure were US mainline routes, previously flown by jets (at some time). This farming out has been goin on for a long time.

 

[surplus1]

Look... it's rather simple, you pull a B737 off and put a CRJ in its place, and you've taken 10 mainline pilot jobs away. Of course they'll scope you to protect their interests.

Tell you what freight dog, I'm going to go along with your theory. I think we should start the experiment to prove it right where you are.

Next time I see the Aloha Chairman I'm going to recommend that he get on the bandwagon and tighten up his scope. He ought to get rid of all those DHC 8s and replace them with 737s. Like Aloha did before this Island Air thing existed. With all those new 73s I'm sure there'll be a place for you as soon as they start hiring.

If that doesn't work out for you for some reason don't worry about it. Just head back to the mainland 'cause Delta will be next. They'll get Leo to dump all the RJs and replace them with 73s and DC-9s. That will get all the DL pilots back to work and there'll be plenty of extra jobs for you to apply for.

Just think, there are more than 10,000 regional pilots in ALPA alone. At 10 pilots per jet (your formula) all the big boys have to do is add 1000 new airframes and you'll have your job back in a heart beat. Of course there are a few more regional pilots that aren't in ALPA so if we can do the same with them that should add at least another 300 airframes to the mainlines.

The no count majors like AWA and ALA won't need many but we have UAL, DAL, NWA, CAL and AAA. That's 5 big guys at about 260 new airframes each. AA will pick up all the Eagle pilots to fly their new equipment. There's only about 2500 or so of them so AA can easy handle another 250 big jets.

Boeing and Airbus will be happy to sell all those new airframes too. Now if Leo, Carty, Gordon, and the others will just take a 50% pay cut, I'm sure that will produce enought to pay for those few mainline flights that carry 30 or 50 pax and the airlines will still make a killing.

A few regional dudes might not get jobs right away because we do have to keep spaces open for the fellows that the military will release in the future, but as soon as they are taken care of, why your turn will be right around the corner.

Sounds like a good plan. I say go for it.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Maybe you're right, Deiter. I have changed my thinking and now believe that we should all allow management to lower our salaries to busdriver levels so the "consumer" will be happy.

I know the consumer is important. I know that we must give them what they want, and I hope we do. However, I also believe that we should be fairly compensated for our services (both pilots and airlines). I do not feel bad about expecting to be well-paid, I think we deserve it. It is a shame that there are many pilots out there who don't feel the same.

 

[Timebuilder]

Buschpilot,

I thought I had a dog in this fight until 911, but it appears that when hiring resumes I will be considered "unattractive" as a new hire to either a "regional" or a "major".

That said, my interest is now more of a "people" interest.

The suit is indeed about jobs, pay, lifestyles, benefits, equipment, and all the other aspects of union contract representation. The big question revolves around whether or not members of the same union received the same value for their union membership, in the form of "equal representation" while working for carriers under the same ownership. It's complicated.

What is at stake revolves around two events. The first is a finding of fault, and the second is what ruling may come as a result of that finding, in the form of redress. In other words, if ALPA is found to have not properly represented its members, then what (and who) will be ordered to make up for the wrong?

You can bet that the market WILL determine the ultimate course of pilot's lives. Contracts only provide some inertia to slow down the process of market forces, allowing changes to occur over a longer period of time. If a contract contains terms that are too inhibitive to the successful participation of a carrier in the marketplace, then that carrier will lose market share and revenue. Sometimes, this means the carrier will go out of business because the terms of the contract made the carrier uncompetitive. Really good union leadership is mindful of this pitfall.

The really unfortunate part is that this problem had to come to court for a solution to be (possibly) imposed.

 

[Buschpilot]

Thanks guys and gals. I'm out of the office for a bit, but I've got some more thoughts to throw around when I get back in later.

Again, I'm not trying to rehash an old (and getting older) argument, I'm just trying to understand. Actually, this may end up being my Thesis next year.

Pro-Pilot, of course.

 

[Freight Dog]

Surplus, Island Air is a small airline, we are the smallest ALPA carrier. It doesn't need to be bigger since the market here is limited. It's not that Aloha cannot fill a 737 and fly it to Lanai or Molokai, it's a performance issue more than anything. Just look at Hawaiian which serves the airports we fly DHC-8's into with B717's... when the wind shifts, they send their pax over to us since they can't go into those airports due to performance issues, yet the community here depends on air travel since there are no bridges between the islands. Try flying a B737 on a 3000 ft strip with constantly shifting winds.. won't work. Yet those flights are almost always full in DHC-8. Oh, and as for Aloha hiring and movement at Island Air, tell that to the FO's that are upgrading here, or the street captains... we had to scale the schedule back because of lack of crews due to Aloha taking our captains.

Now, let's look at your airline. Flying from CVG down to Mexico City. I'm sorry dude, but that flying should NOT belong to you. That should be a mainline route. But it's not, is it? Why? $$$$$. Even after strike, you guys are still cheap labor.

Look at COEX/ExpressJet... new route EWR-OKC. What the hell?? That's half across the country. But sure, the captain and the FO combined make less than $80k. Now you're talking about adding 90 seat RJ's. I mean really.... look at NWA's DC-9's and their payscales, and then look at the most you could get at a "regional" flying 70 or 90 seat RJ's.

RJ's in regional carriers are cheapening the profession, and RJDC is a cancer that needs to go away.

My solution? Scope the living sh*t out you - You can't overfly a hub, no hub-to-hub, you can't have more than 50 seat RJ's, and you can't exceed the ASM cap. If you want 70 or 90 seat RJ's, fine... it becomes the junior mainline bird and you have to apply to get it or have a flow-through.

Noticing your flight time Surplus, 25k hours? Are you mad perhaps because you couldn't get hired anywhere? Is that why you are so adamant about this RJDC garbage? Just curious....



Aloha!

 

[Timebuilder]

>>My solution? Scope the living sh*t out you - You can't overfly a hub, no hub-to-hub, you can't have more than 50 seat RJ's, and you can't exceed the ASM cap. If you want 70 or 90 seat RJ's, fine... it becomes the junior mainline bird and you have to apply to get it or have a flow-through.

Once again, scoping a particular carrier who is associated with your employer does NOTHING to keep others from providing the same service with smaller jets to the same destinations as your carrier does.

Eventually, the market will determine what equipment is flown, and to where, by whom. A scope clause in your contract will only prevent operations by those who are associated with your company. That clause may provide little protection in the grand scheme of things.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Comair has never flown from CVG to Mexico city. You might want to get your facts streight before you start coming to conclusions. also, if the Comair flight replaced an Aero Mexico codeshare, wouldn't that be a good thing? The rjdc is simply trying to get equal representation for all legal alpa members. All of the things you guys think are going to happen are not going to happen.

The big difference between you and I is this....I think our fight is going to make a better career for ALL pilots. Your fight will only make it better for the few that get on with your airline. I wish you good luck and prosperity, but I hope that my side wins.

 

[Freight Dog]

Comair has never flown from CVG to Mexico city.

SDD,

I stand corrected. But still, looking at your route map, CVG to Nassau? CVG to HOU?

Your argument that RJDC will make everyone win is flawed SDD.
I'm translating this into our situation here which is actually pretty similar. Aloha Airlines vs Aloha IslandAir.

Following 9/11, Aloha furloughed, we didn't. We were hiring. Aloha pulled out of OGG-KOA and OGG-ITO flights. The route was given to us, however due to scope clause restriction, we could not fly direct. After taking off from OGG we had to make a stop in either Lanai or Molokai which is actually going the wrong way before we could go to either ITO or KOA. The management tried to get Aloha pilots to give in on that route as "low-yield, marginal" and better served by Island Air. They wouldn't budge. Mind you, our flying has increased quite a bit when we were flying those routes. That brought upgrades here, and a couple newhire classes. However, Aloha had guys on furlough. Then the merger talks kicked off.. Aloha and Hawaiian had pilots on furlough, and after the merger, they'd have even more. When the merger collapsed, Aloha took OGG-ITO and OGG-KOA routes back into B737, our flying decreased, but they recalled all their furloughees and then took a good number of our captains which made room for many FO's to move up to captain seats.

Moral of the story: I can see the reason behind very restrictive scope clauses. It promotes the stability and protects the high paying jobs and their number. I can definitely appreciate that. How things turned out here in the Island Paradise really opened my eyes.

But let's say that we took over Aloha's flying out of OGG and started flying direct. This is what I gather RJDC is about. Let's say we brought in a few more Dash 8's, or DHC-8-Q400's with 70 seats and now we started flying direct. My growth potential here at Island Air would be great. We'd be expanding, taking routes, new airplanes, but our wages, our work rules, our benefits, you name it... are grossly underpaid and way behind our mainline brothers. So while they'd be out on furlough, we'd be expanding the peanut jobs at their expense. Personally, I'd rather be on the other side of the fence being paid a good wage, having great work rules, benefits, etc.

But the way things have turned out, we have growth where the growth should occur - on the high paying level, not on the peanut level. Our turnover here is great because Aloha apparently hires qualified people off our list before going outside. What this does is preserves the high paying jobs and keeps the cycle running here with new pilots coming in, and guys meeting captain requirements upgrading. That's how it all should be.

Having seen RJDC website and followed some of RJDC arguments, I think most people who back RJDC have no ambition to go beyond their current position i.e. CRJ captain, which is fine.
We have lifers here as well, and that's their choice. But do not try to replace high-paying job with peanut-paying jobs.

 

[bdejong]

Actually, the best solution imo to this whole problem is being sought by the American pilots. They are in negotiations right now and they are saying ALL flying in the US including, Alaska and Hawaii, and ALL flying in Canada and Mexico done by American Airlines must be done by the pilots on the American Airlines seniority list. There will be NO outsourcing allowed. That is imo the only scope clause that mainlines should allow. It fixes all our pilot problems.
Brian De Jong

 

[Tim47SIP]

Fdog

"Your argument that RJDC will make everyone win is flawed SDD.
I'm translating this into our situation here which is actually pretty similar. Aloha Airlines vs Aloha IslandAir."

Dood, you cant use your situation to come to a conclusion. You have a specific area that is being flown. You cant expand. The only thing you can do is get smaller. All of your flying is primarily dependent on the numbers of tourists. Your situation and Deltas or US's is completely different. If Aloha can fill thier aircraft, they will use them way before giving the routes to you. If the economy faulters again, you will get more frequency, Aloha will reduce it's flying. Purely economics.

"Moral of the story: I can see the reason behind very restrictive scope clauses. It promotes the stability and protects the high paying jobs and their number. I can definitely appreciate that. How things turned out here in the Island Paradise really opened my eyes."

OK, now take your statement and apply it to US Air. Tell me exactly how this helped in their situation and why they have to take their WO's flying slots, furlough the WO's pilots to make room for the mainline guys, and scramble on a number of issues to try to save the company.

FDJ

"As a union, we have the right, and responsibility to exert certain pressures on mgt for our collective good. That has been the case since to inception of unions, and it has led to some pretty valuable advancements.

I think that it benefits all of us to try to foster the growth of high-paying jobs, while trying to limit the outsourcing of those jobs to low wage carriers.

I will admit that our ability to do so is definitely in question right now. "

Ya know, I fully agree with this. You are absolutely right. The only problem is the method being used. If ALPA would act honestly and trustingly, then their motives would never be in question. But they continue to manipulate in a manner that makes them look no better than a crooked used car salesman. They need to get out and educate all of us low lifes of what their game plan is, but they do nothing more than snub their noses at us, all of the while making darn sure that the dues are being paid. If all sides are up and up with each other and there are no more behined the scenes secret deals being made, life for all of us would be better.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Tim,

I'm all for honesty and disclosure.

If ALPA has not been truthful with you, than I agree you have a right to be upset with them. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty pissed at them myself!

 

[Freight Dog]

Tim,

Actually, this is where you are wrong. Island Air flies from Honolulu and Kahului to secondary airports (Molokai, Lanai, Kapalua). Is there room to expand here? Oh you bet! If you look at the frequency of Aloha's schedule say between HNL-OGG, it's one of the most frequently flown routes in the entire U.S. air line system. Then you take into account HNL-KOA, HNL-LIH, HNL-ITO. Then in my example, Aloha has direct flights from OGG-KOA, OGG-ITO and OGG-LIH. When Aloha pulled out of OGG-KOA and OGG-ITO, we couldn't fly it direct even though they weren't serving it. We have to make stops. So a passenger has a choice.. jet service from OGG to HNL, change aircraft, and go to KOA or ITO, or sit on the turboprop while it makes a stop. Reason? Scope clause.

Could Island Air expand? Take away the scope clause and watch how fast we get either SJ's or Q400's and more aircraft. Up until 3 years ago, Aloha didn't fly to the mainland, now it's concentrating solely on the mainland routes with more coming, with interisland travel being more of a public service than profits. Yet, for their pilots, it's job security.
For us, it's an advancement opportunity. Sure, if scope went away, I'd advance BIG time here at Island Air. But it'd definitely hinder my career progression to where I want to retire from.

As for US Air, you are twisting what I'm saying. When Aloha furloughed after 9/11, we weren't gonna take their furloughees and displace our own. Nor is that what I'm advertising. When the mainline furloughs, you shouldn't be hiring for expansion. The regional's growth should be tied to the mainline's growth. That's where the scope comes in. Your SJ has ABSOLUTELY no business flying from EWR to OKC, or from CVG or MCO. Before the advent of SJ's, those routes were flown successfully with MD80's and 737's which were mainline jobs. Now they're flown by pilots who combined make $80k or so, while mainline pilots are on the street.

What I'm trying to say is that as a regional airline pilot, I want to protect the high paying jobs and expand them. I don't want to see our end of career checks to dwindle down to city bus driver payscales. I see RJDC advertising just that, and as a young guy with over 33 years left before hitting 60, why should I join the bandwagon that'll keep me at a regional for a good portion of my career?

We all know what would solve this situation... one seniority list, but the management will never go for it, so that's why, as a pilot, I want to see as few regional jobs and as many major airline jobs as possible.

 

[Tim47SIP]

FDog
For the record, I have a few reservations about the RJDC agenda. I agree with some of it's points, but like FDJ has stated above, there are also some points I dont like.
What I was getting at is the dynamics of what is going on here in the mainland versus there on the Islands. I flew there for 3 1/2 years and know all of the areas that you are talking about. As I stated in my previous post, you would increas in frequency between a definitive group of airports. 7 airports (I believe). Yes, Aloha has the ability to expand to the mainland and beond, but you dont. So management cant expand you a great deal at the expense of Aloha. Yes, they can stop using the 717's or what ever else they are flying and replace all of the scheduled flights with -8's or Q400's, but they will make a lot more money filling up the bigger aircraft. Your competition is limited at best. So in reality, you have a very stable and almost monopolistic environment as long as the traffic is there. Here on the mainland, the amount of expansion is enormous. Coast to coast. The competition is fierce and bloodthirsty. The low cost carriers are why the big boys are now in trouble. You dont have to worry about that.
I agree that the mainline guys need scope protection, but the current scope is flawed. Is there a scope that will allow the right Aircraft for the route? Who knows. There are fixes for the problems at hand but mainline is unwilling to budge, and that is their right.
So to use your previous example and try to make it fit here is very unrealistic as the things that are going on here are evolutionary. I am glad that the scope Aloha had worked for you guys, but the same will not work here as US is a classic example.

 

[Freight Dog]

I agree that U has a restrictive scope, and that's fine.. but my problem with them is taking WO's jobs. If there was a flow-through, it'd be one thing, but w/o flow-through, I hope Uncle Duane doesn't sign that. Taking jobs from WO's and putting furloughed mainline guys in those jobs without flow-through agreements falls in the same book as scabbing.

The competition is fierce in the mainland, I know. But the interisland market here is so dang cheap, it's been draining both airlines for the last 10 years, and it was a good reason for a merger. When that failed, it's still draining both airlines, and that's why in order to recuperate those losses, they have to have more mainland flights as bread and butter. $50 to Hilo from HNL for a resident. That's pretty cut-throat, wouldn't you agree?