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RJ legs getting much longer......
- Thread starter F/O
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patriotflier
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 14, 2003
- Posts
- 53
General Lee
Well-known member
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- Aug 24, 2002
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nimtz
Well-known member
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- Dec 5, 2001
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General Lee said:I think those UA Express CR7s are going to be flown by Mesa.
Also, ASA will start a daily CR7 from JFK to DFW soon. I guess our marketing department can't find enough people who live in the DFW area or the NYC metro to fill an MD88. Sheesh!
Bye Bye---General Lee
Yes JFK-DFW, a 'second tier route' that cannot exist with a mainline jet. After all both cities along the route are very small and management can only hope to break even in the long term. Give me a f*cking break. It's called mainline flying for 1/3 the proper wages. If only those of you at CHQ, Mesa, and Skywest realized just how much damage you are doing to this profession. Hey at least you will get the upgrade, right?!?
Palerider957
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2003
- Posts
- 975
Ya Mama
Yes, the 700 is an honest .83-.84 aircraft. I did this trip a few weeks ago in 701EV with a gear door removed, had to do the whole trip at .78 with a 100 knot head wind...made for 4 hours even.
Also, keep in mind this is block time and allows for taxi time out of DFW and into to ONT/OAK.
Yes, the 700 is an honest .83-.84 aircraft. I did this trip a few weeks ago in 701EV with a gear door removed, had to do the whole trip at .78 with a 100 knot head wind...made for 4 hours even.
Also, keep in mind this is block time and allows for taxi time out of DFW and into to ONT/OAK.
jobear
Titanium Necked Bandit
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2002
- Posts
- 786
Mr Hat said:
I've jumpseated from MKE to IAH and back a couple times in the E145XR to visit family down south and can tell ya that the trip isn't to bad just bring a cushion for those hemmi inducing ERJ seats
. They were 1st developed to make PAX wanna get outta the A/C after a hour long flight, by the way thanks for the lift XJET Guys/Gals.Jobear
DorkProp
Dork No More!
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 271
I'm sure experienced and frequent travelers would realize that a mainline aircraft is not necessarily more comfortable than an RJ. The only mainline aircraft I find comfortable at US Air is the A320 series. I can't tell you how many times I've had to deadhead on a 100% full 757 or 737. Those Boeings are terribly cramped, especially if you're stuck in a middle seat.
There's a lot to be said about no middle seat on those CRJs. However, I will admit that the seat cushion on the CRJs I've been on are rather hard for long periods.
Here's my opinion on passenger comfort and space for US Air's aicraft:
Airbus
Dornier
CRJ
Boeing
ERJ
Dash 8
Saab (in the back)
1900
and the worst I've been on: J-41
These rankings are based on my perceived comfort and space, no regard given to noise level.
There's a lot to be said about no middle seat on those CRJs. However, I will admit that the seat cushion on the CRJs I've been on are rather hard for long periods.
Here's my opinion on passenger comfort and space for US Air's aicraft:
Airbus
Dornier
CRJ
Boeing
ERJ
Dash 8
Saab (in the back)
1900
and the worst I've been on: J-41
These rankings are based on my perceived comfort and space, no regard given to noise level.
Most comfortable narrow-body mainline by far: A320/A319. Jetblue sets the standard for economy flying in that regard - it just feels more spacious... Least comfortable jet (probably for business passengers with laptops, etc.) would be the ERJ on long flights - the walls just feel like they are caving in after 2 hours. I have heard that the Dash 8 Q400 is comfortable - most other props are not comfortable after 1 1/2 hours. To consider 3-4 hour flights on RJs is ridiculous and business travelers would likely AVOID them at all costs after making that mistake once...
"I'm no jet pilot, but 4 hours+ on this leg sure doesn't sound like a .82 cruise to me ...?"
It's a block time. That includes taxi time at DFW (sometimes it can take 20 or 30 minutes from the time you block out of the gate until your wheels leave the ground), taxi in at OAK (about 5 minutes), and cruise time. The normal flight time for this trip is around 3.4 hours. You might be flying into a headwind of up to 120 or 30 knots, so even cruising at .82 M (we are normally flight planned at .80 M unless a gear door is missing due to an AD, then you are planned at .77M and limited to .78 M by the CDL) it is not unrealistic to have a block time over 4 hours. Then sometimes you are planned for a stop in LAS for fuel, the pax love that. Sometimes, you have to make an unplanned stop in LAS for fuel.
Yes, you are not flying the whole 4 hours, but you are sitting in the seat working. With our stupid policy on flight crewmembers using the lav, most people just tough it out. Oh, then you get to do a round trip OAK to SLC. If you are lucky you get to bed at 0300 ATL time, but if you are unlucky (most of the time I'm unlucky) it's more like 0400 or 0500 ATL time. I hate this trip.
It's a block time. That includes taxi time at DFW (sometimes it can take 20 or 30 minutes from the time you block out of the gate until your wheels leave the ground), taxi in at OAK (about 5 minutes), and cruise time. The normal flight time for this trip is around 3.4 hours. You might be flying into a headwind of up to 120 or 30 knots, so even cruising at .82 M (we are normally flight planned at .80 M unless a gear door is missing due to an AD, then you are planned at .77M and limited to .78 M by the CDL) it is not unrealistic to have a block time over 4 hours. Then sometimes you are planned for a stop in LAS for fuel, the pax love that. Sometimes, you have to make an unplanned stop in LAS for fuel.
Yes, you are not flying the whole 4 hours, but you are sitting in the seat working. With our stupid policy on flight crewmembers using the lav, most people just tough it out. Oh, then you get to do a round trip OAK to SLC. If you are lucky you get to bed at 0300 ATL time, but if you are unlucky (most of the time I'm unlucky) it's more like 0400 or 0500 ATL time. I hate this trip.
propjockey
Supreme Commander
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 245
DorkProp said:
The RJ seats may be hard, but I hate middle seats so much that I would rather sit on an RJ for four hours than in the middle seat of a mainline aircraft any day.
That being said, I nearly missed a showtime once because I turned down a middle seat, thinking there would be plenty of other flights available. I later found out a big convention had just ended, and all flights out of town were full. Moral of the story: I now grit my teeth and take the middle seat. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush!
BTW -- the 70-seaters seem more spacious. I don't know if it's just my imagination, but it also seems like you don't have to bend yourself in half to look out the windows.
Dave Benjamin
an over 40 victim of fate
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2003
- Posts
- 1,040
Boyd group prediction
This is from the Boyd group prediction for 2004
See www.aviationplanning.com
Prediction: Increasing Consumer Resistance to Small Jets.
We noted this last year, and we noted it years before.
It's happening - consumers are getting weary of long-haul flying cramped within the tight tube of an RJ - including the 70 and 90 seat stretched versions of the CRJ. Even the Wall Street Journal has noted the trend.
But, one can accurately observe, mega-carriers are still replacing long haul flying with RJs. Like United, in its effort to make A-320s available for its silly Ted experiment, is actually putting an RJ on its evening DEN-ATL flight - which is a major business market. And that, friends, could lead to some very upset consumers - indeed, a consumer revolt.
To be sure, there are applications where only an RJ can provide jet service adequately. But where there is an alternative, particularly in major markets that are as much as 3 hours or more, boarding to deplaning, riding an RJ can be a physical experience not seen since the Inquisition.
Let's recount the fun a Premier Executive United passenger will have when he arrives at DEN from SEA for his connection on the 6:30 departure to ATL. Yes, he gets the full-Monty RJ experience. He finds he has to wait in a gate area handling four other flights at the same time. He eventually has to schlep his carry-on down a dirty stairwell, cross a noisy and maybe snow-covered ramp. He has to leave his "carry-on" at the foot of the stairs, perhaps in a puddle. Then he has to sit in a cramped seat, constantly vying for advantage on the middle arm-rest, which has an edge that juts into one's arm for that perfect level of discomfort. Use of a laptop is impossible, and reading a newspaper means folding it like an Origami napkin. For three hours, give or take, this fun continues.
We're not talking about a flight in a sparse market to a small community, where one might understand that this is the best and most efficient service the market can support. We're talking about Denver to Atlanta on the United Airlines system. When one considers that the DEN-ATL alternative is a 757 on Delta with a movie, or an A-319 on Frontier with TV, or an AirTran 717 with an easy upgrade, this prime-time RJ flight could lead one to believe that United is trying to drive passengers away. This is but one example, and it's not limited to United. The point is that consumers are starting to turn on RJs just as they did on turboprops a decade ago.
Write this down: for markets where mainline aircraft are uneconomic, RJs are great aircraft. Every aircraft has a proper niche, both from the perspective of operational costs and consumer comfort. In the latter regard, RJs are not well-suited to long-haul flying. Certainly, there are some thin markets where an RJ can and will be the only game in town. But in major, high density business markets that represent more than two hours, an RJ can be lethal to brand-loyalty.
The revolution hasn't started yet. But it will.
This is from the Boyd group prediction for 2004
See www.aviationplanning.com
Prediction: Increasing Consumer Resistance to Small Jets.
We noted this last year, and we noted it years before.
It's happening - consumers are getting weary of long-haul flying cramped within the tight tube of an RJ - including the 70 and 90 seat stretched versions of the CRJ. Even the Wall Street Journal has noted the trend.
But, one can accurately observe, mega-carriers are still replacing long haul flying with RJs. Like United, in its effort to make A-320s available for its silly Ted experiment, is actually putting an RJ on its evening DEN-ATL flight - which is a major business market. And that, friends, could lead to some very upset consumers - indeed, a consumer revolt.
To be sure, there are applications where only an RJ can provide jet service adequately. But where there is an alternative, particularly in major markets that are as much as 3 hours or more, boarding to deplaning, riding an RJ can be a physical experience not seen since the Inquisition.
Let's recount the fun a Premier Executive United passenger will have when he arrives at DEN from SEA for his connection on the 6:30 departure to ATL. Yes, he gets the full-Monty RJ experience. He finds he has to wait in a gate area handling four other flights at the same time. He eventually has to schlep his carry-on down a dirty stairwell, cross a noisy and maybe snow-covered ramp. He has to leave his "carry-on" at the foot of the stairs, perhaps in a puddle. Then he has to sit in a cramped seat, constantly vying for advantage on the middle arm-rest, which has an edge that juts into one's arm for that perfect level of discomfort. Use of a laptop is impossible, and reading a newspaper means folding it like an Origami napkin. For three hours, give or take, this fun continues.
We're not talking about a flight in a sparse market to a small community, where one might understand that this is the best and most efficient service the market can support. We're talking about Denver to Atlanta on the United Airlines system. When one considers that the DEN-ATL alternative is a 757 on Delta with a movie, or an A-319 on Frontier with TV, or an AirTran 717 with an easy upgrade, this prime-time RJ flight could lead one to believe that United is trying to drive passengers away. This is but one example, and it's not limited to United. The point is that consumers are starting to turn on RJs just as they did on turboprops a decade ago.
Write this down: for markets where mainline aircraft are uneconomic, RJs are great aircraft. Every aircraft has a proper niche, both from the perspective of operational costs and consumer comfort. In the latter regard, RJs are not well-suited to long-haul flying. Certainly, there are some thin markets where an RJ can and will be the only game in town. But in major, high density business markets that represent more than two hours, an RJ can be lethal to brand-loyalty.
The revolution hasn't started yet. But it will.
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