RJ legs getting much longer......

[SaladShooter]

You are still missing the point. If a business passenger has a choice of a nonstop on an RJ versus a connection on a Boeing/Airbus, he will choose the nonstop. Frequency and convenience are paramount to the business traveller...and remember, THEY are the ones who pay our salaries.

Sam


While I believe that people like to go point to point the most deciding factor in nearly all travel descions is the overall cost. This goes for the buisness traveler all the way down to the lesiure traveler. What will get me to my destination the cheapest and secondly the most efficently? Cost makes all the difference. SWA just announced the fourth quarter results, something like 37% of all travelers were for buisness, that is much higher than the previous quarter and much higher than the legacy airlines. SWA bounces you around from city to city until you get to your final destination and people flock to them. The cost is the deciding factor not just point to point.

By the way I believe the longer the flights are on the RJ's the more relient the major airlines will be on them. The more relient on the RJ's the less the major's will ever grow. Less growth means less new hires, means longer for us RJ drivers stuck in them and less of a chance at the majors. So I believe that using the RJ's for longer flights in neither productive for the airline nor is it productive for my career!

 

[Ailerongirl]

BTW -- the 70-seaters seem more spacious. I don't know if it's just my imagination, but it also seems like you don't have to bend yourself in half to look out the windows.

That's becasue the floor of the 700 is 2" lower than the 200, for that reason.

 

[BlueCanoe]

It's called mainline flying for 1/3 the proper wages. If only those of you at CHQ, Mesa, and Skywest realized just how much damage you are doing to this profession. Hey at least you will get the upgrade, right?!?

Hey Alice,

Screw you.

Who do you fly for now? Are you a mainline guy? Did you come from a regional, or did you get the military E-Ticket because you have good eyes (note: My best friend is a military pilot, and I have nothing but the highest respect) and have no idea what it takes to get a flying job?

Know what? I don't care. When you guys who run your mouth start sending me $100k a year, and everyone else on my seniority list also, or pay off all of the debt by all the pilots on our seniority list, we'll strike over pay until I'm blue in the face.

I'll even bump one up. If you are finacially set, I'll take your job, then you can quit flying, and work as a talking head on a cable news channel. You meet the qualifications - running your mouth devoid of facts for ratings.

I don't run the company, but I, and a lot of others still need to work. I make no apologies for flying at a contract carrier.

Let me know your commute. Since we suck so bad, I sincerely hope you never have to use such a group of losers to get to work.

 

[jetexas]

I just wish the cockpit seats would recline back a little more.

 

[RichO]

I fly those little things and over 2 hours is too long......sure, you can go through the process to actually take a walk to the back....but, I do agree management is going too far with the usage of the RJ....What happen to being a regional jet?? Come to think of it, what the *ell happen to the days of flying in comfort....oh, yeah, degregulation....from a passenger standpoint, after an hr or 2, they're too small........the seats are smaller, just when you thought they couldn't make seats smaller they have..................I'll delay hours to ensure I get first just to avoid being crammed in back like a piece of mad cow.......anyways, just a few thoughts......

ps.....Many business travelers do business while flying, if they don't have the space to do any, they will choose another airline.......I tried using my laptop on an RJ the other day, and the screen couldn't even fold out all the way due to the closeness of the seat in front and the small tray table.....

PPS...and one last note, what the *ell is a military e-ticket.....???? Is that where you go to training for 2-3 years, and then you start flying conus and overseas, and then something happens and you start to leave for 1-2 years away from your family, living in a place where the only green you see is from a plot of grass someone planted in front of one of the makeshift buildings.............please, tell me more about this military e-ticket........and while you're at it, explain why you should make less money flying when your company is expanding and making more money???????.........(take cuts to ensure growth....there is a contradiction.......)

 

[RogerMOSA]

What about those airlines that will sell you a first class ticket for the going price and then try to stick you with 1,2, or 3 legs on a single class RJ. How do they justify that? Do they think the consumer is stupid? It will catch up to them.....just wait.

 

[BlueCanoe]

I fly those little things and over 2 hours is too long

You fly "those little things"? You don't have to. Do you fly them or fly on them?

I tried using my laptop on an RJ the other day, and the screen couldn't even fold out all the way due to the closeness of the seat in front and the small tray table.....

It's funny you say that. The ERJ has an equivalent seat pitch to the 737.

PPS...and one last note, what the *ell is a military e-ticket
.............please, tell me more about this military e-ticket........

OK since you asked...I in no way knocked what the military pilots do or go through. What my issue is that when they get out, SOME act like knobs when they get directly to the majors, bypassing pilots with 6 to 10 thousand airline hours at a regional. We're all pilots. Military training is excellent, the selfless giving of one's life for our country is not to be taken lightly, however, once the tour of duty is over it's over.

and while you're at it, explain why you should make less money flying when your company is expanding and making more money???????.........(take cuts to ensure growth....there is a contradiction.......)

Again, you asked... If mainline ALPA's back in the day would have accepted the smaller A/C no problem would exist. Right? Presently, I make proportinally more than a narrow body captain (ie. 40% of the seats, but 42.5% of the pay). I would love to make more, but I don't, so tough titty said the kitty.

 

[RichO]

"Military training is excellent, the selfless giving of one's life for our country is not to be taken lightly, however, once the tour of duty is over it's over."



Yes BlueCanoe, sometimes it is really over........................

 

[nimtz]

Hey Alice,

Screw you.

Who do you fly for now? Are you a mainline guy? Did you come from a regional, or did you get the military E-Ticket because you have good eyes (note: My best friend is a military pilot, and I have nothing but the highest respect) and have no idea what it takes to get a flying job?

Know what? I don't care. When you guys who run your mouth start sending me $100k a year, and everyone else on my seniority list also, or pay off all of the debt by all the pilots on our seniority list, we'll strike over pay until I'm blue in the face.

I'll even bump one up. If you are finacially set, I'll take your job, then you can quit flying, and work as a talking head on a cable news channel. You meet the qualifications - running your mouth devoid of facts for ratings.

I don't run the company, but I, and a lot of others still need to work. I make no apologies for flying at a contract carrier.

Let me know your commute. Since we suck so bad, I sincerely hope you never have to use such a group of losers to get to work.

Check my profile retard. I'm just like you, except I'm disgusted at the fact that some of us through our voting history have demonstarted a willingness to fly 70-90 seat aircraft for 30 bucks an hour. I'm sickened enough flying a 50 seater for that rate, but I'm actually willing to put my job on the line in order to get my wage where it ought to be for the flying I'm doing. Sadly enough for this profession, I have a feeling I'm in the minority. BTW, made about 28K this year, so you are the one devoid of facts...

 

[AirBill]

Check my profile retard.

Name-calling. The last refuge of the dim-witted.

 

[nimtz]

AirBill,

Try reading the post a little clearer...

I'm sickened enough flying a 50 seater for that rate, but I'm actually willing to put my job on the line in order to get my wage where it ought to be for the flying I'm doing.

I can't change my work rules and compensation overnight, that's called mediation. You can be sure I'll vote with my feet if in the future this 'regional flying' (which includes city pairs like DFW-JFK) continues to offer the vast undercompensation that some groups overwhelmingly accepted. This despite the overwhelming increase in revenue that we 'regional pilots' have been asked to take up from the major airline system.

 

[RJFlyer]

Yes JFK-DFW, a 'second tier route' that cannot exist with a mainline jet. After all both cities along the route are very small and management can only hope to break even in the long term. Give me a f*cking break. It's called mainline flying for 1/3 the proper wages. If only those of you at CHQ, Mesa, and Skywest realized just how much damage you are doing to this profession. Hey at least you will get the upgrade, right?!?

I would have thought that this "argument" would apply to city pairs like DFW-ORD and DFW-DTW. Large markets ought to support a larger aircraft, right? And it's us regional pukes' lower compensation that makes the company do this, to increase profit, right? WRONG. This month on these routes (the legs I flew, anyway) averaged about 6 people per flight. Yeah, it's a large market, so let's stick an -88 on it! Hell, the RJ loses money at those load factors. I don't think we'll be doing them much longer.

Just because they're large markets doesn't mean that they'll support a larger aircraft for that particular company.

 

[MedFlyer]

To be fair, routes like DFW-ORD and DFW-MSP will always be a struggle for DL. DFW-ORD has AA mega-hubs on both ends, plus a UA mega hub on the ORD end. All of the business travelers will fly these carriers because they are the hometown carriers and dominant frequent flier populations. DL only has a secondary overflow hub (which is what DFW really is) and has very few loyal travelers left in the DFW area. How well do you think AA would do if they flew CVG-ATL?

However, DFW-JFK is a route where DL should be able to fill a mainline plane. The reason they can't is that DL has diminished much of the feed on both ends. At DFW, secondary connecting markets like ELP, TUS, ABQ have seen mainline demolished and replaced by RJ's. This strategy reduces the number of passengers feeding into DFW to connect to JFK. At JFK, DL has chopped many of the international flights (DUB,MUC,ARN,TLV,etc) reducing JFK's value as an international connecting gateway.

Shrinking to profitability is not a good strategy...DL apparently hasn't figured that out yet.

 

[General Lee]

Medflyer,

First of all, we cut a lot of those flights before our big "boom time" in the late 90's. When we got rid of the old Pan Am A310s, a lot of those nonstops were gone--like Berlin tegal, Stockholm, etc... We havben't cut any of those flights since 9-11 to Europe--they are still pretty much the same as they were pre-9-11 (except JFK to Ireland and Manchester) The flights from JFK on the INTL side can still support an MD-88, especially in the Summer. The Summer Olympics are this year, and we are the only US airline to fly to Athens, and we will be adding a second daily flight (3 days a week besides the daily 767ER) before the Olympics start. Besides that city, we also fly to Moscow, Madrid, Barcelona, Nice, Venice, Rome, Milan, Paris (with continuing service to Mumbai, India), Frankfurt, Istanbul, Amsterdam, and Brussels. Not bad, and will be full this Summer.
I just bet that an CR7 will not be enough from DFW, but hey--I am not in charge of Marketing....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MedFlyer]

Medflyer,

The flights from JFK on the INTL side can still support an MD-88, especially in the Summer. The Summer Olympics are this year, and we are the only US airline to fly to Athens, and we will be adding a second daily flight (3 days a week besides the daily 767ER) before the Olympics start. Besides that city, we also fly to Moscow, Madrid, Barcelona, Nice, Venice, Rome, Milan, Paris (with continuing service to Mumbai, India), Frankfurt, Istanbul, Amsterdam, and Brussels. Not bad, and will be full this Summer.
I just bet that an CR7 will not be enough from DFW, but hey--I am not in charge of Marketing....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Sorry General, but many of those routes were cut post 9/11. Stockholm, Dublin, Shannon, Munich, Zurich, Tel Aviv, Cairo and Dubai were all cut immediately after 9/11. Brussels was also cut, but DL brought it back after Sabena went belly up. Lyon was cut just before 9/11.

You are right that DL cut a bunch of old Pan Am routes back in the early-mid 90's...place like Berlin, Oslo, Copenhagen, Warsaw, Vienna, Stuttgart (still served through ATL), Hamburg, Manchester (still served via ATL), etc.

I agree with you that DL should be able to fill an MD88 between JFK and DFW...particularly in the summer.

However, remember that many of those cities you mention are also served by ATL or CVG. Why fly ABQ-DFW-JFK-AMS when you can just fly ABQ-ATL-AMS?

Madrid, Rome, Barcelona, Milan, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Brussels are all served through ATL in the summer. Amsterdam,Rome and Paris are also served through CVG. In most cases, ATL/CVG will be more convenient than JFK (no double connecting).

 

[General Lee]

True, true. But the JFK INTL hub is one of our jewels and we have added a lot of RJ flights (boo hoo) from lots of Midwestern cities (like IND and CHM for Chataqua) for connections to JFK and beyond. Also, a lot of those JFK flights have only competition form the INTL carriers from those INTL countries---like Istanbul (a turk A340), Athens(an Olympic A340) and Moscow (an Aeroflot 767-300)---which means that most business people would probably choose the better service (and less smell) on our 767s.

You are correct about the Brussels service coming back after Sabena's demise, and also the Cairo and Dubai service (which was obvious after that attack) being cut. When was the last time we flew nonstop to Tel Aviv? Mid-90's, right? After we bought the route from Pan Am? We also had a fiarly large Frankfurt hub until the early 90's, with sevice to Bucharest, St. Petersburg, Prague, etc... Now, we have codeshares with the frogs. Maybe if we take 75% paycuts we can have them back---on RJs.



And look what they just announced hot off the presses:



Delta Air Lines Announces Intent to Resume Service to Buenos Aires from Atlanta
Tuesday January 27, 1:00 pm ET


ATLANTA, Jan. 27 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL - News) announced today its intention to restart nonstop service between Atlanta and Buenos Aires, Argentina, this winter. Pending government approval, Delta would begin offering customers one daily nonstop flight between its Atlanta hub and Buenos Aires on Dec. 1, 2004, using 204-seat Boeing 767-300ER aircraft.
"We are pleased to offer our customers in Atlanta nonstop service to Buenos Aires -- a city famous for its European architecture, vibrant nightlife and the tango," said Subodh Karnik, senior vice president-Network and Revenue Management. "And customers traveling from Buenos Aires to Atlanta, the world's largest hub, now will have direct access to more than 900 flights daily to more than 180 nonstop cities around the world."

Buenos Aires is one of South America's most important business destinations. Argentina's attractions include the Lake District, Iguazu Falls, the pampas, Patagonia and the wineries of the Cuyo district. Buenos Aires opens the door to world-class skiing, hiking, horseback riding and rock climbing.

Delta currently has the necessary route authority to resume its Atlanta- Buenos Aires service, but that authority will expire on March 31, 2004, unless extended by the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT). Delta filed its request for an interim extension with the DOT today.

DELTA'S PROPOSED WINTER SCHEDULE BETWEEN ATLANTA AND BUENOS AIRES

Departs Arrives
Atlanta at 8:40 p.m. Buenos Aires at 8:35 a.m.
Buenos Aires at 10:20 p.m. Atlanta at 6:30 a.m.

DELTA'S PROPOSED SUMMER SCHEDULE BETWEEN ATLANTA AND BUENOS AIRES

Departs Arrives
Atlanta at 8:30 p.m. Buenos Aires at 7:30 a.m.
Buenos Aires at 9:20 p.m. Atlanta at 6:35 a.m.



Good........


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[tlax25]

as a paying passenger

I try an avoid any flight on an RJ over 1 to 1 1/2 hours. I once flew on a Mesa CRJ from PHX to ORD and that nearly killed me. Well, not really, but is was extremely uncomfortable. I am 6'4 and unless I get the single seat on the left side of the plane, forget about it. I would be more than happy to pay more money to fly on a mainline aircraft. Purely from a consumers perspective, I cannot believe that people are willing to fly 3 hours on an RJ at any price, and that these longer stage lengths can be sustained. But what do I know?

 

[General Lee]

tlax25,

I can understand your plight, and I have sat in the back of RJs and watched people complain about the size and their discomfort (but hey, they always get a window or an aisle!!!). You're right, an hour or maybe an hour and a half are ok, especially compared to flying in a lounder turboprop for that long. But, when you start flying them over 2 hours, then it gets tough. Mesa is starting UA Express service this month from AUS to SFO, and eventually AUS to IAD. That would really be uncomfortable.

Also, I didn't think Mesa ever flew nonstop from PHX to ORD---I think their longest flight from PHX is MEM and DSM. (maybe Edmonton, Canada is that long too from PHX) I get your point though. With the LCCs offering longer flights for lower fares on their mainline sized aircraft, hopefully the Majors will compete with larger planes----after they get their costs down though....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[wms]

DFW/JFK is new (hasn't even started yet!) and looking ahead at the bookings it's still light. Hopefully it'll start over-selling and it will upgrade to mainline. This is one of the best uses for the RJ next to serving small communities... Seeking out new routes and then upgrading to mainline when feasible. Per-seat-mile the CRJ is more expensive to operate than mainline aircraft, and if the airline wants the best ROI it'll use mainline aircraft when possible. We know that, surely the bean counters know that and hopefully it'll start flowing back up soon.

 

[701EV]

Airbill

That was funny!

701EV