Risky Regionals?

[DiverDriver]

And regionals fly how many millions of pax every year with out incident?

Without incident? Oh, there are TONS of incidents. Just read the FAA daily intake: http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/

It happens every day.

 

[30West]

Yay! Another speculative thread.

 

[Jar Jar]

I wouldn't necessarily imply that its always low-timers at regionals that are risky though.

If you are going to look at the risky flight crews in regional airlines I think its fair to also look at the guys who never moved on, perhaps simply couldnt get hired anywhere else. There are just as many of those guys floating around as low-time FOs.

 

[172driver]

As a fractional guy, I fly around in the back of a lot of RJ's. Nine legs on the airlines this tour. I know the chances of anything happening are very slim and 90% of the crews are great, but I always feel a little more nervous on Pinnacle, Mesa, and Colgan. Pinnacle because their incident/accident rate is way too high, Colgan because of their obviously low budget operation, Mesa...should I even waste the keystrokes?

I must say though, my experiences on Pinnacle and Colgan have been great. Good customer service, good flights, nothing out of the ordinary. Mesa has put me through some sketchy stuff and always give the impression things are barely under control.

The scariest flights I have been on though have been Chautauqua. A couple of really unstabilized visual approaches, some t'storm penetrations that scared me, and one near overrun. I have a lot of friends there and I'm certainly not condemning their crews as a whole, but some of them seem to have ego issues or something to prove.

 

[Sedona16]

I had a tail stall in the J-31. And I did pull all the way back and add power. This was at 250 agl too. You can tell which one it is by the way the airplane rotates during the stall [seat of the pants]. Rotation from the tail axis is a wing stall. Rotation around the wing axis is a tail stall.

As the other guy mentioned there is no such thing as a tail axis. Secondly, I hate to break the news but you used the wrong technique for a tail plane stall...you should have reduced power and retracted flaps not adding power. I get so tired of the Monday morning quarterbacks here. I stick with my original assessement that most pilots would jack up a tail plane stall if it hit them out of nowhere.

One other thing that makes your story suspect is the fact that NASA test pilots who responded within 2/10th of a second (they were expecting the tail plane stall) lost 300 feet and here you managed to recover in under 250? The FO in this example immediately (before even being called upon) retracted the flaps. http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses/inflight_icing/related/3_2_3f_RI.html

I think Chuck Yeager wants to shake your hand!

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

And regionals fly how many millions of pax every year with out incident?

Incidents happen weekly within the regionals. Hell, in every sector of the industry for that matter. I am sure you were referencing to accidents and not incidents. Civilian and military agencies view each with a distinct difference.
Here's another site that tracks accidents and incidents. Makes for interesting reading.
http://www.avherald.com/h?list=&opt=0

 

[Flyin2low]

As the other guy mentioned there is no such thing as a tail axis. Secondly, I hate to break the news but you used the wrong technique for a tail plane stall...you should have reduced power and retracted flaps not adding power. I get so tired of the Monday morning quarterbacks here. I stick with my original assessement that most pilots would jack up a tail plane stall if it hit them out of nowhere.

One other thing that makes your story suspect is the fact that NASA test pilots who responded within 2/10th of a second (they were expecting the tail plane stall) lost 300 feet and here you managed to recover in under 250? The FO in this example immediately (before even being called upon) retracted the flaps. http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses/inflight_icing/related/3_2_3f_RI.html

I think Chuck Yeager wants to shake your hand!

Where did I say that I recovered? As a matter of fact the power was near idle for the flare and the airplane just happened to hit the runway in a sort of level pitch during attempted recovery. This was in 1990 there wasn't a lot of info out there back then. The technique was to just fly faster on the approach and hope you didn't have enough ice to stall out the tail.

 

[BigLebowski]

There's already a bunch of data out on the Colgan crash in Buffalo.....it is starting to take shape. Isn't this the same company that sank a 1900 off Massachusetts a few years back? In the flying world they have always been considered a "bottom feeder" would you agree?

My point? When you plan a trip and get an itinerary, there always seems to be a leg on a regional that should be looked into. I know the big guys crash too, but it seems riskier if your trip includes a leg on Colgan, Comair, Go, Mesa etc.....

Does anyone out there actually choose an itinerary so as NOT to fly on one of these airlines?

are you even a pilot? Do you know how long/how much experience the average pilot has at comair right now?

do you realize that many of us at the "bottom feeders" were hired with more experience there, than they used to require at the legacy carriers...ie. united?

 

[jmreii]

I am curious to know how many pilots realistically think in half a split second when their airplane stalls they would know if it was a tail plane stall or wing stall and push or pull, add power or cut power, bring the flaps up or leave them down, etc? I am venturing to guess even "Sulley" wouldnt fair so good in this sceneraio. My old regional gave us a quick and dirty on tail plane stalls and I kept thinking how impossible this would be to pull back during that one time it really was a tail plane stall. Of course the best couse of action is to avoid icing but thats not always an option.

Many pilots never get themselves into such a spot because they are using good judgement and common sense which goes beyond the AFM, GOM, OPECS, FARS, FAA, and Airline(employer).

 

[acpilot]

Many pilots never get themselves into such a spot because they are using good judgement and common sense which goes beyond the AFM, GOM, OPECS, FARS, FAA, and Airline(employer).

Have you ever flown freight?

 

[papanovember]

Just pointing out the FO of 3407 had ATP mins when she was hired.

 

[airplane wizard]

Incidents happen weekly within the regionals. Hell, in every sector of the industry for that matter. I am sure you were referencing to accidents and not incidents. Civilian and military agencies view each with a distinct difference.
Here's another site that tracks accidents and incidents. Makes for interesting reading.
http://www.avherald.com/h?list=&opt=0

Yea, accidents not incidents... sorry.

 

[Sedona16]

Many pilots never get themselves into such a spot because they are usin good judgement and common sense which goes beyond the AFM, GOM, OPECS, FARS, FAA, and Airline(employer).

Have you ever been in your Metroliner stacked ten deep with three other stacks covering a 100 mile swath. Icing and low vis embedded throughout the area for hundreds of miles. Lemme guess you heard there was reported ice in the area and used your good judgment to divert to an airport a state away just like you always do. Did you bother to listen to the ATC tapes the night this Q400 went down? This is a fairly typical situation that happens all the time. For sequencing and arrivals planes are backed up waiting their turn. Icing was reported all over the area starting more than 100 miles out. Ceilings were low (below 2000 feet). So lemme guess in this scenario you used your good judgement to get the boots on early. Very good! Then you ducked under the icing conditions? Or you immmediately diverted?

 

[IBNAV8R]

Many pilots never get themselves into such a spot because they are using good judgement and common sense which goes beyond the AFM, GOM, OPECS, FARS, FAA, and Airline(employer).

This sounds like some of the crap spewed by some "airline-type training school graduates" I've run across.

To have good judgment and common sense takes experience - which often comes from getting out of such a spot and vowing to your mother and your favorite deity that you'll go to church and never do THAT again.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Have you ever been in your Metroliner stacked ten deep with three other stacks covering a 100 mile swath. Icing and low vis embedded throughout the area for hundreds of miles. Lemme guess you heard there was reported ice in the area and used your good judgment to divert to an airport a state away just like you always do. Did you bother to listen to the ATC tapes the night this Q400 went down? This is a fairly typical situation that happens all the time.

Yeah and it happens a lot to guys in alot less capable aircraft, single pilot, without an autopilot, ice detection, and auto boots. They still make it home... most of the time.

 

[Sig]

There's already a bunch of data out on the Colgan crash in Buffalo.....it is starting to take shape. Isn't this the same company that sank a 1900 off Massachusetts a few years back? In the flying world they have always been considered a "bottom feeder" would you agree?

My point? When you plan a trip and get an itinerary, there always seems to be a leg on a regional that should be looked into. I know the big guys crash too, but it seems riskier if your trip includes a leg on Colgan, Comair, Go, Mesa etc.....

Does anyone out there actually choose an itinerary so as NOT to fly on one of these airlines?

......

On second thought, next time you find yourself on one of those planes, grow a pair and introduce yourself.

Try it out on a Piedmont flight. I promise you a free flight lesson if I'm the captain at the time.

 

[Sedona16]

Yeah and it happens a lot to guys in alot less capable aircraft, single pilot, without an autopilot, ice detection, and auto boots. They still make it home... most of the time.

"Most of the time" as you say. Im not talking about most of the time. Im guessing hundreds of flights went into NY the night 3407 crashed. I doubt there were alot of scheduled service Cessnas running around in that weather. Yes most of them probably did you use that good judgement you speak of and never flew into or out of the area. However, there were probably hundreds of commercial flights that turned on their boots/ heated wings just after takeoff and flew close to the same circuit as flight 3407. Because they made it, did they use better judgement? Again I submitt that on any given day, any pilot who flys scheduled service can find himself in the shoes of flight 3407. When that does happen and if its a tail stall I would bet money most will in that split second push forward and give full power before they pull back, reduce power and reduce flaps. It seems to me you got it all figured out though Chuck.

 

[AMRAAM]

......

On second thought, next time you find yourself on one of those planes, grow a pair and introduce yourself.

Try it out on a Piedmont flight. I promise you a free flight lesson if I'm the captain at the time.

Don't think I will find myself on your plane. Maybe just do a good job instead of trying to show the world that you're Chuck Yeager.......could be the root of many problems.

Your free lesson to the world: add my airline to that list of questionables.

 

[acpilot]

Have you ever been in your Metroliner stacked ten deep with three other stacks covering a 100 mile swath. Icing and low vis embedded throughout the area for hundreds of miles. Lemme guess you heard there was reported ice in the area and used your good judgment to divert to an airport a state away just like you always do. Did you bother to listen to the ATC tapes the night this Q400 went down? This is a fairly typical situation that happens all the time. For sequencing and arrivals planes are backed up waiting their turn. Icing was reported all over the area starting more than 100 miles out. Ceilings were low (below 2000 feet). So lemme guess in this scenario you used your good judgement to get the boots on early. Very good! Then you ducked under the icing conditions? Or you immmediately diverted?

That "good pilots won't get into that position" is really a BS point. A lot of these guys have only flown 141 and blast off the regionals at 300 hours...they have no real flying experience.

 

[lancair360]

The majority of low time FO's I flew with at 9E were good pilots, but unless you have flown a lot of solo hours in a SE piston in WX I think it's easy to take all of the technology for granted which can sometimes lead to complacency.

I commuted in my Lancair for five years between HOU and MEM and to go from a CRJ to a two seat experimental piston in the same day will really make you appreciate a jet.

Utilize the technology that allows you to fly in nasty WX but don't take it for granted and always have an out. A liitle pucker factor is a good thing.

 

[jmreii]

Have you ever flown freight?

I have flown single pilot freight and flew for a regional airline for while. The statement is the same, your behind or your job, it's your choice!

 

[Sig]

Don't think I will find myself on your plane. Maybe just do a good job instead of trying to show the world that you're Chuck Yeager.......could be the root of many problems.

Your free lesson to the world: add my airline to that list of questionables.

No, squirt.

Don't ever compare me to a bitter, uneducated hillbilly who spent the last 60 years trying to prove he wasn't merely the most expendable guy.

Secondly, it was a free flight lesson, you thickwitted dolt.

There's no way you're a pilot. Just... no way.

 

[AMRAAM]

No, squirt.

Don't ever compare me to a bitter, uneducated hillbilly who spent the last 60 years trying to prove he wasn't merely the most expendable guy.

Secondly, it was a free flight lesson, you thickwitted dolt.

There's no way you're a pilot. Just... no way.

You exhibit all the qualities of a fine instructor

 

[Sig]

You exhibit all the qualities of a fine instructor

I sure do, buttercup!

 

[SpauldingSmails]

"Most of the time" as you say. Im not talking about most of the time. Im guessing hundreds of flights went into NY the night 3407 crashed. I doubt there were alot of scheduled service Cessnas running around in that weather. Yes most of them probably did you use that good judgement you speak of and never flew into or out of the area. However, there were probably hundreds of commercial flights that turned on their boots/ heated wings just after takeoff and flew close to the same circuit as flight 3407. Because they made it, did they use better judgement? Again I submitt that on any given day, any pilot who flys scheduled service can find himself in the shoes of flight 3407. When that does happen and if its a tail stall I would bet money most will in that split second push forward and give full power before they pull back, reduce power and reduce flaps. It seems to me you got it all figured out though Chuck.

I think you missed my point, I'm saying I think something greater than a simple ice encounter likely occurred. Feces happens.

I'm certainly not judging the actions of the crew here. I'm saying that conditions like this exist on a daily basis, and that aircraft and crews with less tools in their bag make it. We'll have to wait and see where the cause lies.

I've personally made my fair share of judgment and performance errors... most of us have. Luckily, we get away with it most of the time, and hopefully learn a lesson from it before we eff up again.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Don't think I will find myself on your plane. Maybe just do a good job instead of trying to show the world that you're Chuck Yeager.......could be the root of many problems.

Your free lesson to the world: add my airline to that list of questionables.

If you don't want to ride on Piedmont, that is fine... But you are missing out on some of the finest and most experienced pilots that the industry has to offer. Even Sig...

The accident report isn't even is draft stage yet and already you are making determinations on how safe various (presumably turboprop) airlines are. Don't you think that is just a tad premature? Personally, I think you are a flamebaiter...

 

[Sig]

Personally, I think you are a flamebaiter...

He doesn't even work for an outfit that allows jumpseaters, I presume. But to whatever lofty heights his career has taken him to since he was working at Ameriflight, I'm sure he's too proud to try on such unsavory equipment as a Dash.


So, I guess my 'free flight lesson,' something even the most drool-slinging windowlicker could understand, won't ever happen.

 

[WSurf]

If you don't want to ride on Piedmont, that is fine... But you are missing out on some of the finest and most experienced pilots that the industry has to offer. Even Sig...

The accident report isn't even is draft stage yet and already you are making determinations on how safe various (presumably turboprop) airlines are. Don't you think that is just a tad premature? Personally, I think you are a flamebaiter...

Experienced Piedmont Pilots. Don't we have to be to fly these 25 years old planes?

To upgrage at Piedmont you don't have to be Chuck Yeager, you gotta be Chuck Norris.

 

[AirBill]

As a fractional guy, I fly around in the back of a lot The scariest flights I have been on though have been Chautauqua. A couple of really unstabilized visual approaches, some t'storm penetrations that scared me, and one near overrun. I have a lot of friends there and I'm certainly not condemning their crews as a whole, but some of them seem to have ego issues or something to prove.

Unbiased opinion? NOT! From 03-02-2004:

TWAER,

I believe your pilot group did, in fact, make the decision to fly for lower wages than CMR. If you would've stood firm and demanded a competitive contract, DAL's decision would not have been so clear. As it stands, it was easy for them to justify giving them to the lowest bidder.

CMR pilots refused to drop their wages and work rules in exchange for these airplanes. CHQ pilots settled for much less than CMR was willing to accept, plain and simple. In fact, they even settled for less than the concessionary levels CMR was asked to accept.

That's where the hostility comes from, in case you're having a hard time understanding.

 

[ehaecker]

Personally, I think you are a flamebaiter...

Or just a huge tool :beer: