Risky Regionals?

[Flyin2low]

My old regional gave us a quick and dirty on tail plane stalls and I kept thinking how impossible this would be to pull back during that one time it really was a tail plane stall. Of course the best couse of action is to avoid icing but thats not always an option.

I had a tail stall in the J-31. And I did pull all the way back and add power. This was at 250 agl too. You can tell which one it is by the way the airplane rotates during the stall [seat of the pants]. Rotation from the tail axis is a wing stall. Rotation around the wing axis is a tail stall.

 

[hydroflyer]

I had a tail stall in the J-31. And I did pull all the way back and add power. This was at 250 agl too. You can tell which one it is by the way the airplane rotates during the stall [seat of the pants]. Rotation from the tail axis is a wing stall. Rotation around the wing axis is a tail stall.

What? Tail axis rotation? In either stall the plane will rotate at the center of gravity.

 

[erikgigem]

Perhaps the FAA or the airline's insurance companies needs to re-examine a need for minimum hour requirements before a pilot is being put on a Part 121 RJ. 400 minimum hours is absolutely ridiculous. People's lives are at stake. Aeronautical decision making (ADM) skills takes time and experience to develop. (no disrespect to those that got hired with such low hours).

 

[SSDD]

I just hope they don't require hand flying in icing conditions, because a lot of these guys can't even handfly VFR, let alone in the clouds.

 

[Dashmonster]

I just hope they don't require hand flying in icing conditions, because a lot of these guys can't even handfly VFR, let alone in the clouds.

Dash8's have a TCS button that lets you feel the airplane w/o the autopilot interference. Its handy in icing conditions.

 

[airplane wizard]

And regionals fly how many millions of pax every year with out incident?

 

[JoeMerchant]

The NTSB will spend probably a year and tremendous man-hours and resources examining this accident to find out why.

Yet the FAA is willing to allow anyone to play in a $25 million-dollar jet with 76 paying passengers after 6 months of fooling around at some two-bit Florida flight school.

No disrespect to the crew of the ill-fated flight. This isn't directed at them. But is anyone surprised these things happen?

Anyone?

Seems to me it's smoke and mirrors as usual...

EXACTLY...Would be nice to see ALPA address experience also.....

 

[olympus593]

EXACTLY...Would be nice to see ALPA address experience also.....

Yeah it's alpa fault DBAG.

 

[AMRAAM]

Yet the FAA is willing to allow anyone to play in a $25 million-dollar jet with 76 paying passengers after 6 months of fooling around at some two-bit Florida flight school.

No disrespect to the crew of the ill-fated flight. This isn't directed at them. But is anyone surprised these things happen?

Anyone?

Not me. Thanks for finally answering my question Oakum_Boy

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah it's alpa fault DBAG.

....not what I said...

 

[DiverDriver]

And regionals fly how many millions of pax every year with out incident?

Without incident? Oh, there are TONS of incidents. Just read the FAA daily intake: http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/

It happens every day.

 

[30West]

Yay! Another speculative thread.

 

[Jar Jar]

I wouldn't necessarily imply that its always low-timers at regionals that are risky though.

If you are going to look at the risky flight crews in regional airlines I think its fair to also look at the guys who never moved on, perhaps simply couldnt get hired anywhere else. There are just as many of those guys floating around as low-time FOs.

 

[172driver]

As a fractional guy, I fly around in the back of a lot of RJ's. Nine legs on the airlines this tour. I know the chances of anything happening are very slim and 90% of the crews are great, but I always feel a little more nervous on Pinnacle, Mesa, and Colgan. Pinnacle because their incident/accident rate is way too high, Colgan because of their obviously low budget operation, Mesa...should I even waste the keystrokes?

I must say though, my experiences on Pinnacle and Colgan have been great. Good customer service, good flights, nothing out of the ordinary. Mesa has put me through some sketchy stuff and always give the impression things are barely under control.

The scariest flights I have been on though have been Chautauqua. A couple of really unstabilized visual approaches, some t'storm penetrations that scared me, and one near overrun. I have a lot of friends there and I'm certainly not condemning their crews as a whole, but some of them seem to have ego issues or something to prove.

 

[Sedona16]

I had a tail stall in the J-31. And I did pull all the way back and add power. This was at 250 agl too. You can tell which one it is by the way the airplane rotates during the stall [seat of the pants]. Rotation from the tail axis is a wing stall. Rotation around the wing axis is a tail stall.

As the other guy mentioned there is no such thing as a tail axis. Secondly, I hate to break the news but you used the wrong technique for a tail plane stall...you should have reduced power and retracted flaps not adding power. I get so tired of the Monday morning quarterbacks here. I stick with my original assessement that most pilots would jack up a tail plane stall if it hit them out of nowhere.

One other thing that makes your story suspect is the fact that NASA test pilots who responded within 2/10th of a second (they were expecting the tail plane stall) lost 300 feet and here you managed to recover in under 250? The FO in this example immediately (before even being called upon) retracted the flaps. http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses/inflight_icing/related/3_2_3f_RI.html

I think Chuck Yeager wants to shake your hand!

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

And regionals fly how many millions of pax every year with out incident?

Incidents happen weekly within the regionals. Hell, in every sector of the industry for that matter. I am sure you were referencing to accidents and not incidents. Civilian and military agencies view each with a distinct difference.
Here's another site that tracks accidents and incidents. Makes for interesting reading.
http://www.avherald.com/h?list=&opt=0

 

[Flyin2low]

As the other guy mentioned there is no such thing as a tail axis. Secondly, I hate to break the news but you used the wrong technique for a tail plane stall...you should have reduced power and retracted flaps not adding power. I get so tired of the Monday morning quarterbacks here. I stick with my original assessement that most pilots would jack up a tail plane stall if it hit them out of nowhere.

One other thing that makes your story suspect is the fact that NASA test pilots who responded within 2/10th of a second (they were expecting the tail plane stall) lost 300 feet and here you managed to recover in under 250? The FO in this example immediately (before even being called upon) retracted the flaps. http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses/inflight_icing/related/3_2_3f_RI.html

I think Chuck Yeager wants to shake your hand!

Where did I say that I recovered? As a matter of fact the power was near idle for the flare and the airplane just happened to hit the runway in a sort of level pitch during attempted recovery. This was in 1990 there wasn't a lot of info out there back then. The technique was to just fly faster on the approach and hope you didn't have enough ice to stall out the tail.

 

[BigLebowski]

There's already a bunch of data out on the Colgan crash in Buffalo.....it is starting to take shape. Isn't this the same company that sank a 1900 off Massachusetts a few years back? In the flying world they have always been considered a "bottom feeder" would you agree?

My point? When you plan a trip and get an itinerary, there always seems to be a leg on a regional that should be looked into. I know the big guys crash too, but it seems riskier if your trip includes a leg on Colgan, Comair, Go, Mesa etc.....

Does anyone out there actually choose an itinerary so as NOT to fly on one of these airlines?

are you even a pilot? Do you know how long/how much experience the average pilot has at comair right now?

do you realize that many of us at the "bottom feeders" were hired with more experience there, than they used to require at the legacy carriers...ie. united?

 

[jmreii]

I am curious to know how many pilots realistically think in half a split second when their airplane stalls they would know if it was a tail plane stall or wing stall and push or pull, add power or cut power, bring the flaps up or leave them down, etc? I am venturing to guess even "Sulley" wouldnt fair so good in this sceneraio. My old regional gave us a quick and dirty on tail plane stalls and I kept thinking how impossible this would be to pull back during that one time it really was a tail plane stall. Of course the best couse of action is to avoid icing but thats not always an option.

Many pilots never get themselves into such a spot because they are using good judgement and common sense which goes beyond the AFM, GOM, OPECS, FARS, FAA, and Airline(employer).

 

[acpilot]

Many pilots never get themselves into such a spot because they are using good judgement and common sense which goes beyond the AFM, GOM, OPECS, FARS, FAA, and Airline(employer).

Have you ever flown freight?