RIP to the 'Southwest effect'?

[canyonblue]

Oh wait, you didn't exist then... These things you think are proprietary to SWA have been done before. The main thing you really do "own" is bringing no pension to our profession.

Remember the USFL, AFL, WHL and the WNBA? Wait, I think one of those might still be around. The bottom line is you let a little airline from Texas dictate your career and you're still pissed about it. Your management told you that they can't compete against Southwest unless you flew for Southwest wages. And your response when they made you fly for less than Southwest wages? You have no one to blame but yourself, they played you and you can't understand how. Don't forget, no one can ever take anything away from you without you allowing it to happen. I just love how airline management have always presented Southwest as the problem for their airlines financial mess, the problem is a bunch of apparently smart airline pilots fell for it. Your management has always been your worst enemy, they just made you think it was Southwest.

 

[Flopgut]

Thanks, almost forgot that one. Apparently Flopgut has too.

Didn't forget anything, simply pointing out the notion of a "shuttle" type operation within a larger operation has been around a long time. Sure, many of the later attempts were I'll failed and tried to mimic SWA. But it's a valid point to make that East coast shuttle flying has been around a lot longer than SWA.

 

[Flopgut]

Remember the USFL, AFL, WHL and the WNBA? Wait, I think one of those might still be around. The bottom line is you let a little airline from Texas dictate your career and you're still pissed about it. Your management told you that they can't compete against Southwest unless you flew for Southwest wages. And your response when they made you fly for less than Southwest wages? You have no one to blame but yourself, they played you and you can't understand how. Don't forget, no one can ever take anything away from you without you allowing it to happen. I just love how airline management have always presented Southwest as the problem for their airlines financial mess, the problem is a bunch of apparently smart airline pilots fell for it. Your management has always been your worst enemy, they just made you think it was Southwest.

That would be a very good post, IF the profession was where it was now without suffering 911. I'm sorry, you do work for a good company. But SWA isn't so much good, as what happened to the legacy carriers is bad. Pure economics are not what put things where they are today.

 

[humveedriver]

That would be a very good post, IF the profession was where it was now without suffering 911. I'm sorry, you do work for a good company. But SWA isn't so much good, as what happened to the legacy carriers is bad. Pure economics are not what put things where they are today.

Do you think fuel and labor is going to get cheaper over time? Do you think airlines would still have a "pension plan" if SWA had gone belly up in the 80's. Do you think the effects of the economy and global pressures are mutually exclusive to the legacy airlines or are other sectors of industry effected too? I show up to work each week because I understand things change over time. The "stews" don't wear hot pants to serve whiskey to their chain smoking passengers anymore. The 401k replaced the pension, so on and so forth. What's the deal with 9/11? It took 3 years for demand to recover. http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/r...riefs/issue_briefs/number_13/html/entire.html
But fuel kept creeping up. Aging fleets and RJs put the airlines in BK. Ancillary fees, international markets, and new planes seem to be paying the bills at Delta. I don't know why your airline is still screwed up. Oh wait. It's SWA's fault.

 

[redflyer65]

The main thing you really do "own" is bringing no pension to our profession.

They may have been a bad thing for you Flop, but it worked out unbelievably well for those early guys at SW. Did they making lower wages than the rest of the industry? Absolutely. But they completely cleaned up on Profit Sharing and Stock Options, that were added on top of the 401k contributions. Meanwhile, your management was underfunding your pension until they had the opportunity to completely delete it in bankruptcy court.

So the major difference here was great management as SW, and horrible management at most of the other airlines. All the early SW guys retired multi-millionaires because they .......didn't have a pension.

 

[humveedriver]

That would be a very good post, IF the profession was where it was now without suffering 911. I'm sorry, you do work for a good company. But SWA isn't so much good, as what happened to the legacy carriers is bad. Pure economics are not what put things where they are today.

Do you think fuel and labor is going to get cheaper over time? Do you think airlines would still have a "pension plan" if SWA had gone belly up in the 80's. Do you think the effects of the economy and global pressures are mutually exclusive to the legacy airlines or are other sectors of industry effected too? I show up to work each week because I understand things change over time. The "stews" don't wear hot pants to serve whiskey to their chain smoking passengers anymore. The 401k replaced the pension, so on and so forth. What's the deal with 9/11? It took 3 years for demand to recover. http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/r...riefs/issue_briefs/number_13/html/entire.html
But fuel kept creeping up. Aging fleets and RJs put the airlines in BK. Ancillary fees, international markets, and new planes seem to be paying the bills at Delta. I don't know why your airline is still screwed up. Oh wait. It's SWA's fault.

 

[scoreboardII]

You're living the past Flop, move forward buddy or get left behind.

 

[waveflyer]

I love how everything is SWA's fault when legacies have had corrupt CEO after corrupt CEO taking golden parachute after golden parachute. Even with GKs latest bonus we still have some of the lowest paid execs and hq management with some of the highest paid line employees in the country.

Swa, IMO, is not close to what is wrong in corporate america and the airline industry.

 

[Dan Roman]

SWA is very good airline that treats their employees better than most and have influenced other airlines to realize taking care of your employees can help the bottom line more than crapping on them. Bethune took a page or two from that play book to turn CO around. SWA also has been a huge positive to the travelling public and their low fares have helped millions take trips that they otherwise would not have been able. So if the legacies have had to clean up their act to compete, so what. They should have done it anyway......There, I said it!

Happy Memorial Day, remember the sacrifices our vets made and it's going to be a great Indy 500 tomorrow enjoy it. !:beer:

 

[slaquer5]

SWA is very good airline that treats their employees better than most and have influenced other airlines to realize taking care of your employees can help the bottom line more than crapping on them. Bethune took a page or two from that play book to turn CO around. SWA also has been a huge positive to the travelling public and their low fares have helped millions take trips that they otherwise would not have been able. So if the legacies have had to clean up their act to compete, so what. They should have done it anyway......There, I said it!

Happy Memorial Day, remember the sacrifices our vets made and it's going to be a great Indy 500 tomorrow enjoy it. !:beer:

Someone hacked Dans password

 

[Flopgut]

Do you think airlines would still have a "pension plan" if SWA had gone belly up in the 80's.

Yes. Absolutely. Not a doubt in my mind.

 

[Flopgut]

What's the deal with 9/11?

Unbelievable. Becoming a United pilot by way of merger has been an eye opening experience. United and American took the direct hit simply because if the company's names. United deserved an ATSB LOAN. If darling SWA had needed a loan Uncle Sam would have emptied the account. The govt would have preferred united cease flying.

 

[waveflyer]

That last quote is the first good thing you've said in a while
United absolutely deserved an atsb loan guarantee (they were not loans)- and you're probably right about SWA since just about every airline got one that asked except united
But why the constant obsession with SWA? It's just weird at this point

 

[canyonblue]

The govt would have preferred united cease flying.

No, just the traveling public.

 

[Flopgut]

They may have been a bad thing for you Flop, but it worked out unbelievably well for those early guys at SW. Did they making lower wages than the rest of the industry? Absolutely. But they completely cleaned up on Profit Sharing and Stock Options, that were added on top of the 401k contributions. Meanwhile, your management was underfunding your pension until they had the opportunity to completely delete it in bankruptcy court.

So the major difference here was great management as SW, and horrible management at most of the other airlines. All the early SW guys retired multi-millionaires because they .......didn't have a pension.

Ok, so if Im looking for a flying job sometime (pretty sure I'll do something [anything] else at this point) I'm going to want to go someplace that's straight up competing with you. And if they pay 50% on the dollar of what you make, and that starts to mess up your sweet deal, you better not have a problem with it, right Red?

 

[waveflyer]

Um usair was basically doing that for the last decade flop... And all of your regionals for much less... Time to get off this weird trip man

 

[canyonblue]

Ok, so if Im looking for a flying job sometime (pretty sure I'll do something [anything] else at this point) I'm going to want to go someplace that's straight up competing with you. And if they pay 50% on the dollar of what you make, and that starts to mess up your sweet deal, you better not have a problem with it, right Red?

Don't you already work for less than a Southwest pilot? Your hyprocracy shows no bounds, yet you won't see me complain on the pay of another industry pilot. You just help management with their sham that pilot pay makes or breaks an airline.

 

[Flopgut]

That last quote is the first good thing you've said in a while
United absolutely deserved an atsb loan guarantee (they were not loans)- and you're probably right about SWA since just about every airline got one that asked except united
But why the constant obsession with SWA? It's just weird at this point

Bob Crandall wrote an article about 20 years ago called "California Pricing". In it he described how Continental lite or United Shuttle type ops were failed prospects. That a company could show a segment that would be healthy/profitable but that there was no point to it when it would not be sufficient to raise the mortgage on the entire company. (It's different than the East Coast shuttle)

That's kind of like what we have going on in this Country with our profession/industry. There is basically one healthy part [Swa] that is rallied for (or who is dealt cards off the bottom of the deck for IMO) while the rest of US carriers are left to die. It's not healthy for the industry or the Country. It looks good to have one airline doing so well. But the US couldn't run this economy off SWA only. I'm guessing about 25 years from now US airlines will look like US shipping, and our jobs will be gone. I think then we will look back and question the wisdom of deregulation. Or if Harding Lawrence [Braniff] was right and it would ultimately fail. That fork in the road put Braniff out of business and made SWA what it is today.

 

[slaquer5]

Ok, so if Im looking for a flying job sometime (pretty sure I'll do something [anything] else at this point) I'm going to want to go someplace that's straight up competing with you. And if they pay 50% on the dollar of what you make, and that starts to mess up your sweet deal, you better not have a problem with it, right Red?

Do you even believe what you write . Complete crazy talk . I hope you write this to try and upset a few .

If not you have some major mental issues .

 

[Flopgut]

Don't you already work for less than a Southwest pilot? Your hyprocracy shows no bounds, yet you won't see me complain on the pay of another industry pilot. You just help management with their sham that pilot pay makes or breaks an airline.

I probably do, but I would want to only make about half what you do. And pay for my training. You know, do it just like SWA did back in the day Then, decades later when it's super successful, I'll get on a web board and read how all the young guys beat their chests and try to re write history like Bubba does

Seriously, I don't even want to fly that much at all anymore.

 

[Flopgut]

Do you even believe what you write . Complete crazy talk . I hope you write this to try and upset a few .

If not you have some major mental issues .

Yeah, it's "talk". And I'm sure it sounds crazy to you. It is just talk though, I didn't actually DO it.

 

[scoreboardII]

Bob Crandall wrote an article about 20 years ago called "California Pricing". In it he described how Continental lite or United Shuttle type ops were failed prospects. That a company could show a segment that would be healthy/profitable but that there was no point to it when it would not be sufficient to raise the mortgage on the entire company. (It's different than the East Coast shuttle)

That's kind of like what we have going on in this Country with our profession/industry. There is basically one healthy part [Swa] that is rallied for (or who is dealt cards off the bottom of the deck for IMO) while the rest of US carriers are left to die. It's not healthy for the industry or the Country. It looks good to have one airline doing so well. But the US couldn't run this economy off SWA only. I'm guessing about 25 years from now US airlines will look like US shipping, and our jobs will be gone. I think then we will look back and question the wisdom of deregulation. Or if Harding Lawrence [Braniff] was right and it would ultimately fail. That fork in the road put Braniff out of business and made SWA what it is today.

Doesn't look good?

You mean AA is doing fine.

DAL is doing great.

ULCC's are doing great.

VX is doing fine.

Everybody is doing fine, except UCAL.

 

[humveedriver]

Yeah, it's "talk". And I'm sure it sounds crazy to you. It is just talk though, I didn't actually DO it.

Just tell me why UniCal can't make money in this new environment? Everyone is.

http://m.smh.com.au/business/aviati...he-worlds-most-profitable-20140522-38rgs.html

There isn't a single market that UniCal doesn't have an appropriate size aircraft to make money on. SWA has been eliminating markets left and right. With fuel at this cost the 737 can make the most money on these routes. That's how they are approaching it.

 

[slaquer5]

Yeah, it's "talk". And I'm sure it sounds crazy to you. It is just talk though, I didn't actually DO it.

You do make it fun to read and come on here . I have to thank you for that

 

[Flopgut]

Just tell me why UniCal can't make money in this new environment? Everyone is.

http://m.smh.com.au/business/aviati...he-worlds-most-profitable-20140522-38rgs.html

There isn't a single market that UniCal doesn't have an appropriate size aircraft to make money on. SWA has been eliminating markets left and right. With fuel at this cost the 737 can make the most money on these routes. That's how they are approaching it.

Well, solid and cerebral management were not needed after good ole Uncle Sam said no to atsb consideration. That was a green light for corporate raider a-holes to ravage workers and sh!t on a US company that was once a Dow component and a $100+ per share stock. Payback for wanting a pre-deregulation contract (2001) in the SWA era I suppose. UAL is not going to make it. They can't, they never got on track after 911. Never figured it out. smisek is the only CAL element left, and he wasn't real cal to begin with. That's my HO.

So I'm looking to the next thing... Really hoping some of these nice 757s that are being parked get put into service at a new airline. Maybe a HOU operation that matches the SWA international routes? That would be fun!! Hell I'd probably go do that for <$100/hr just to prove a point. Maybe less?! Can't think of anybody I'd rather do that to

 

[Dan Roman]

Well, solid and cerebral management were not needed after good ole Uncle Sam said no to atsb consideration. That was a green light for corporate raider a-holes to ravage workers and sh!t on a US company that was once a Dow component and a $100+ per share stock. Payback for wanting a pre-deregulation contract (2001) in the SWA era I suppose. UAL is not going to make it. They can't, they never got on track after 911. Never figured it out. smisek is the only CAL element left, and he wasn't real cal to begin with. That's my HO.

So I'm looking to the next thing... Really hoping some of these nice 757s that are being parked get put into service at a new airline. Maybe a HOU operation that matches the SWA international routes? That would be fun!! Hell I'd probably go do that for <$100/hr just to prove a point. Maybe less?! Can't think of anybody I'd rather do that to

Dude, UAL is not going to make it???? The 3 legacies left are too big to disappear, their flying cannot be picked up by anyone if they shut down. In the past when their was enough excess capacity to cover for EAL, Pan Am etc. when they shutdown, that's simply not the case today. Worst case scenario would be a another trip through bankruptcy court. In which case, because of the fact that there is not enough capacity to cover for their flying, the unions should realize that any paycuts would be to transfer money from the employees to someone else's pocket and do nothing to change survivability.

That said, what really matters........ great Indy 500 today and not a bad Monaco F1 either!

 

[no1pilot2000]

What are the people at Southwest Airlines smoking anyways?

 

[tankerhead]

What are the people at Southwest Airlines smoking anyways?

Poles.

 

[livin'thesim]

I thought the long standing critique of SWA by pilots was the undercutting of fares in markets.
Now that SWA's been carrying the water on pilot contracts for a decade and have had to raise prices, that's a bad thing ?
Consolidation has led to a healthier more profitable industry. We seem to be breaking load factor records every quarter
That's a good thing for us

These ticket prices don't exist in a void.
I know economics isn't a pilot strong point, but we ought to try and see the big picture

Carrying the water? Um, being the last man standing due to fuel hedging and legacy mismanagement does not mean that SWA pilots were some sort of labor hero.

Congrats on the high pay, but your pay scales are a result of a number of circumstantial events, not SWA pilots' amazing ability to out-negotiate every other pilot group.

That is purely delusional.

 

[Dan Roman]

Carrying the water? Um, being the last man standing due to fuel hedging and legacy mismanagement does not mean that SWA pilots were some sort of labor hero.

Congrats on the high pay, but your pay scales are a result of a number of circumstantial events, not SWA pilots' amazing ability to out-negotiate every other pilot group.

That is purely delusional.

He's got a good point Wave, SWAPA has had the good fortune of dealing with a management that has been been less adversarial than others and labor has put " culture" ahead of making gains at times (yes it has reaped benefits!) but SWAPA is hardly "carrying the water" for our profession.