• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

RIP to the 'Southwest effect'?

redflyer65

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Posts
4,456
Total Time
8000
Ok...

Fair enough Howard and Wave.

We would all be hurt but you are right about charging for bags, it's a way out.

I honestly believe another trip through BK wouldn't be in our future if that went down. We have flexibility now.

Your in a much better place now than in 2000.

I don't think SW would file for BK or even furlough either. 3.5 Billion in the bank and owning around 75% of the fleet outright give flexibility too.
 

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
Quite true Red...

Here's my beef with SWA....

There was a definite drive to put a stake in the heart of my airline. I know it's capitalism but it really left a bad taste in my mouth.

We are all pulling for industry profitability and I am glad SWA is in the same boat my airline is...making money without effing your neighbors.
 

redflyer65

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Posts
4,456
Total Time
8000
Quite true Red...

Here's my beef with SWA....

There was a definite drive to put a stake in the heart of my airline..


I don't want to assume Bill, are talking about ATL, or just in general?

SW is always a competitor, not doubt. But there's no way that we could effect DL that much. We will both continue along our separate paths. Sometimes that path may cross, but many times it doesn't.
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
Think he's referring to D Parker.
Right bill?
 

canyonblue

Everyone loves Southwest
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,314
Total Time
15000+
Quite true Red...

Here's my beef with SWA....

There was a definite drive to put a stake in the heart of my airline. I know it's capitalism but it really left a bad taste in my mouth.

We are all pulling for industry profitability and I am glad SWA is in the same boat my airline is...making money without effing your neighbors.

Remember Song, United Shuttle, MetroJet, Delta Express? Yeah, nobody's been trying to kill us the past 20 years. Maybe now you know how it feels, and why I could care less about the life of a few airlines. Too many people with blood on their hands trying to wash it off.
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
Canyon

Remember delta express operated by Compass back in 2014?- flew E-170/175's up and down the west coast as the most serious threat to our shuttle route since the united shuttle-
 

Flopgut

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Posts
3,627
Total Time
15k
Hey Canyon and Wave: Remember Eastern Airlines Shuttle? Yeah, they were trying to put you out of business with their shuttle back in 1961:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Shuttle

Oh wait, you didn't exist then... These things you think are proprietary to SWA have been done before. The main thing you really do "own" is bringing no pension to our profession.
 

Dash Power

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Posts
348
Total Time
18000+
Hey Canyon and Wave: Remember Eastern Airlines Shuttle? Yeah, they were trying to put you out of business with their shuttle back in 1961:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Shuttle

Oh wait, you didn't exist then... These things you think are proprietary to SWA have been done before. The main thing you really do "own" is bringing no pension to our profession.

You missed completely on this point.

This model was not designed to compete against a successful competitor.

All the other "shuttle" type spinoffs by the majors in the nineties was in direct response to Southwest's success with their business model.

Don't forget Continental Lite either. :)
 
Last edited:

canyonblue

Everyone loves Southwest
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,314
Total Time
15000+
You missed completely on this point.

This model was not designed to compete against a successful competitor.

All the other "shuttle" type spinoffs by the majors in the nineties was in direct response to Southwest's success with their business model.

Don't forget Continental Lite either. :)

Thanks, almost forgot that one. Apparently Flopgut has too.
 

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
Remember Song, United Shuttle, MetroJet, Delta Express? Yeah, nobody's been trying to kill us the past 20 years. Maybe now you know how it feels, and why I could care less about the life of a few airlines. Too many people with blood on their hands trying to wash it off.

Comeon Canyon...

Like any of those really were a threat? Stoooopid management tricks was all that was. They blame us unions for not being able to match your wages or workrules.....sorry, I wasn't willing to play along.
 

canyonblue

Everyone loves Southwest
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,314
Total Time
15000+
Oh wait, you didn't exist then... These things you think are proprietary to SWA have been done before. The main thing you really do "own" is bringing no pension to our profession.

Remember the USFL, AFL, WHL and the WNBA? Wait, I think one of those might still be around. The bottom line is you let a little airline from Texas dictate your career and you're still pissed about it. Your management told you that they can't compete against Southwest unless you flew for Southwest wages. And your response when they made you fly for less than Southwest wages? You have no one to blame but yourself, they played you and you can't understand how. Don't forget, no one can ever take anything away from you without you allowing it to happen. I just love how airline management have always presented Southwest as the problem for their airlines financial mess, the problem is a bunch of apparently smart airline pilots fell for it. Your management has always been your worst enemy, they just made you think it was Southwest.
 

Flopgut

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Posts
3,627
Total Time
15k
Thanks, almost forgot that one. Apparently Flopgut has too.

Didn't forget anything, simply pointing out the notion of a "shuttle" type operation within a larger operation has been around a long time. Sure, many of the later attempts were I'll failed and tried to mimic SWA. But it's a valid point to make that East coast shuttle flying has been around a lot longer than SWA.
 

Flopgut

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Posts
3,627
Total Time
15k
Remember the USFL, AFL, WHL and the WNBA? Wait, I think one of those might still be around. The bottom line is you let a little airline from Texas dictate your career and you're still pissed about it. Your management told you that they can't compete against Southwest unless you flew for Southwest wages. And your response when they made you fly for less than Southwest wages? You have no one to blame but yourself, they played you and you can't understand how. Don't forget, no one can ever take anything away from you without you allowing it to happen. I just love how airline management have always presented Southwest as the problem for their airlines financial mess, the problem is a bunch of apparently smart airline pilots fell for it. Your management has always been your worst enemy, they just made you think it was Southwest.

That would be a very good post, IF the profession was where it was now without suffering 911. I'm sorry, you do work for a good company. But SWA isn't so much good, as what happened to the legacy carriers is bad. Pure economics are not what put things where they are today.
 

humveedriver

M1165A1
Joined
Oct 17, 2004
Posts
1,005
Total Time
+7000
That would be a very good post, IF the profession was where it was now without suffering 911. I'm sorry, you do work for a good company. But SWA isn't so much good, as what happened to the legacy carriers is bad. Pure economics are not what put things where they are today.

Do you think fuel and labor is going to get cheaper over time? Do you think airlines would still have a "pension plan" if SWA had gone belly up in the 80's. Do you think the effects of the economy and global pressures are mutually exclusive to the legacy airlines or are other sectors of industry effected too? I show up to work each week because I understand things change over time. The "stews" don't wear hot pants to serve whiskey to their chain smoking passengers anymore. The 401k replaced the pension, so on and so forth. What's the deal with 9/11? It took 3 years for demand to recover. http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/r...riefs/issue_briefs/number_13/html/entire.html
But fuel kept creeping up. Aging fleets and RJs put the airlines in BK. Ancillary fees, international markets, and new planes seem to be paying the bills at Delta. I don't know why your airline is still screwed up. Oh wait. It's SWA's fault.
 

redflyer65

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Posts
4,456
Total Time
8000
The main thing you really do "own" is bringing no pension to our profession.


They may have been a bad thing for you Flop, but it worked out unbelievably well for those early guys at SW. Did they making lower wages than the rest of the industry? Absolutely. But they completely cleaned up on Profit Sharing and Stock Options, that were added on top of the 401k contributions. Meanwhile, your management was underfunding your pension until they had the opportunity to completely delete it in bankruptcy court.

So the major difference here was great management as SW, and horrible management at most of the other airlines. All the early SW guys retired multi-millionaires because they .......didn't have a pension.
 

humveedriver

M1165A1
Joined
Oct 17, 2004
Posts
1,005
Total Time
+7000
That would be a very good post, IF the profession was where it was now without suffering 911. I'm sorry, you do work for a good company. But SWA isn't so much good, as what happened to the legacy carriers is bad. Pure economics are not what put things where they are today.

Do you think fuel and labor is going to get cheaper over time? Do you think airlines would still have a "pension plan" if SWA had gone belly up in the 80's. Do you think the effects of the economy and global pressures are mutually exclusive to the legacy airlines or are other sectors of industry effected too? I show up to work each week because I understand things change over time. The "stews" don't wear hot pants to serve whiskey to their chain smoking passengers anymore. The 401k replaced the pension, so on and so forth. What's the deal with 9/11? It took 3 years for demand to recover. http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/r...riefs/issue_briefs/number_13/html/entire.html
But fuel kept creeping up. Aging fleets and RJs put the airlines in BK. Ancillary fees, international markets, and new planes seem to be paying the bills at Delta. I don't know why your airline is still screwed up. Oh wait. It's SWA's fault.
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
I love how everything is SWA's fault when legacies have had corrupt CEO after corrupt CEO taking golden parachute after golden parachute. Even with GKs latest bonus we still have some of the lowest paid execs and hq management with some of the highest paid line employees in the country.

Swa, IMO, is not close to what is wrong in corporate america and the airline industry.
 

Dan Roman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Posts
2,815
Total Time
19000
SWA is very good airline that treats their employees better than most and have influenced other airlines to realize taking care of your employees can help the bottom line more than crapping on them. Bethune took a page or two from that play book to turn CO around. SWA also has been a huge positive to the travelling public and their low fares have helped millions take trips that they otherwise would not have been able. So if the legacies have had to clean up their act to compete, so what. They should have done it anyway......There, I said it!

Happy Memorial Day, remember the sacrifices our vets made and it's going to be a great Indy 500 tomorrow enjoy it. !:beer:
 
Last edited:

slaquer5

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Posts
1,282
Total Time
>19k
SWA is very good airline that treats their employees better than most and have influenced other airlines to realize taking care of your employees can help the bottom line more than crapping on them. Bethune took a page or two from that play book to turn CO around. SWA also has been a huge positive to the travelling public and their low fares have helped millions take trips that they otherwise would not have been able. So if the legacies have had to clean up their act to compete, so what. They should have done it anyway......There, I said it!

Happy Memorial Day, remember the sacrifices our vets made and it's going to be a great Indy 500 tomorrow enjoy it. !:beer:



Someone hacked Dans password :)
 
Top