Results of ARC rewrite for Flight and Duty (135)

[FlyingMoose]

Hi!

The whole on-demand cargo industry, which constitutes multiple tens, if not hundreds of companies, all use the 24 hour on call system.

You can be on call indefinitely (I know a guy who was just #1 on call for about 60 hours until he got a trip) until you come in, then you start your 14 hour duty day which can be extended indefinitely if you were originally scheduled to complete your trip within 14 hours.

cliff
YIP

With all due respect, please tell me you don't believe the scenario you explain is in compliance of CURRENT regs (not to even mention safety)!

True, you can be on call indefinitely, but you are very definitely not in rest when you are on-call. As soon as you accept and the company assigns you to a flight immediately following being on-call as you describe you both will be in violation because you can't look back and see your 10 hours rest period. People get so wrapped up in the "what is duty" arguement and confuse themselves from what the FAA very clearly and intentionally defined (and has redifined numerous times), what qualifies as rest and the rest requirements.

The only way the 24/7 on-call scenario works is if your company places you into a qualified rest period immediately preceding the duty assignment. I know operators that do that, and all though it is not a great QOL, that is legal.

As far as some of the other replies about the cost of the neccesary crews to follow the regs; if the company/operator/owner can't afford it then they need to get out of the aviation business, period. Besides, in the scope of the costs of operating aircraft, crew costs are a pretty small part.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

What I described is done and condoned by I think all the FSDOs and regional offices. I think what's currently irregularly interpreted is the so-called "14 hour duty day", which can be extended indefinitely, according to some FSDOs/regional offices while others do not allow that.

The on-call vs. rest status will be cleared up in the re-write, because they will have 3 categories of time: Duty, Rest, and On-Call. The 14-hour duty day is also going to be re-written like it is in -121 so there's no grey area.

It's pathetic that the re-write was COMPLETED, what, 2 years ago now, and still nothing was done. What a crock.

Smails:

smailsThe FAA put the ARC issue on the back burner until the finish with the operational control issue.

What is the above "operational control issue" about? Is it the charter thing where a charter "operator" pretends they have airplanes and makes phone calls through 3 layers of companies until they find a jet and crew that they know nothing about and then tells their customer their jet is ready?

How long do they think the above will take 'til they get back to the ARC issue?

Thanx!

cliff
YIP

 

[svcta]

I'm sure it's the same situation with 91 and 135(in spirit), but when I was at the airlines we had rest issues and were constantly upset with just how liberal the rules were with how we were (not) guaranteed rest. The position from our local FSDO was that rest issues were for the unions to sort out. The rules were written and that was as much thought as they would give it.
Until more dead bodies are stacked up they're not going to change the regs.

 

[smails]

atpcliff
Yea, that is what they are focused on. I would suggest that if anyone does work for these type of operations, they identify who they actually fly for to their pax.

 

[Seadogrun]

Am I getting this right?

The only way to work a 14hr day would be to get the call the moment you go on call. I don't work p135 anymore, but that's not how it was interpreted when I was.

The new rule will definately drive costs up by causing 135's to need to double their crew numbers. Falling salaries would probably follow.

Any other thoughts?

 

[FlyingMoose]

Am I getting this right?

The only way to work a 14hr day would be to get the call the moment you go on call. I don't work p135 anymore, but that's not how it was interpreted when I was.

The new rule will definately drive costs up by causing 135's to need to double their crew numbers. Falling salaries would probably follow.

Any other thoughts?

Regardless of how it was "interpreted" when you worked 135, that is exaclty what the current regs dictated then and now. The FAA Regulatory Division, Chief Counsel, Administrator, Flight Standards Service, and Courts have all issued numerous documents, notices, rulings, etc. as to such. They also have been very clear as to the fact that POI's do not have the authority to interpret regulations and never have, their role is to inspect and insure compliance with the regs.

I know for a fact that many POI's and operators have had and continue to have various incorrect interpretations on this matter; but like one of the previous posters suggested I wouldn't want to be the attorney defending the pilot/company that (has an accident) violating this reg.

Let's not forget the whole point is safety. Do you think Mr/Mrs Moneybags wants or would even suspect that a crew that has been setting up all day (with no prescribed rest period) on-call is coming to pick him up late at night and fly him to who knows where for up to the next 14 hours. Thats not the plane I want to be at the pointy end of or worst be in the back of!

As far as cost, if an operator wants to have 24 hour on-demand coverage on every airframe in the fleet and doesn't have enough crews to cover staggered on-call periods, and all the other factors like training, sick-days, PTO, etc. (which most don't have enough for either) AND be in compliance with the current regs and the proposed rewrites, then yes costs are going to go up.

Hey Seadogrun, how are the regs enforced as to rest where you are now?

 

[pilotyip]

unless they change 121, there would be no reason to live under 135 with this supposed new rule. 121 crew rest for supplemental has much more flexibility for crew scheduling.

 

[Seadogrun]

Regardless of how it was "interpreted" when you worked 135, that is exaclty what the current regs dictated then and now. The FAA Regulatory Division, Chief Counsel, Administrator, Flight Standards Service, and Courts have all issued numerous documents, notices, rulings, etc. as to such. They also have been very clear as to the fact that POI's do not have the authority to interpret regulations and never have, their role is to inspect and insure compliance with the regs.

I know for a fact that many POI's and operators have had and continue to have various incorrect interpretations on this matter; but like one of the previous posters suggested I wouldn't want to be the attorney defending the pilot/company that (has an accident) violating this reg.

Let's not forget the whole point is safety. Do you think Mr/Mrs Moneybags wants or would even suspect that a crew that has been setting up all day (with no prescribed rest period) on-call is coming to pick him up late at night and fly him to who knows where for up to the next 14 hours. Thats not the plane I want to be at the pointy end of or worst be in the back of!

As far as cost, if an operator wants to have 24 hour on-demand coverage on every airframe in the fleet and doesn't have enough crews to cover staggered on-call periods, and all the other factors like training, sick-days, PTO, etc. (which most don't have enough for either) AND be in compliance with the current regs and the proposed rewrites, then yes costs are going to go up.

Hey Seadogrun, how are the regs enforced as to rest where you are now?

I don't have any rest regs now as I am straight part 91, however my "mr. moneybags" couldn't care even a little bit about how much rest we get. Ultimately we(crew)draw a line and will sacrifice our job for the safety of flight. Also if we are doing a strech day we don't hesitate to get day rooms even if it's only for a few hours.

When I worked in 135 the situation was much worse.

 

[Way2Broke]

Hi!

The whole on-demand cargo industry, which constitutes multiple tens, if not hundreds of companies, all use the 24 hour on call system.

You can be on call indefinitely (I know a guy who was just #1 on call for about 60 hours until he got a trip) until you come in, then you start your 14 hour duty day which can be extended indefinitely if you were originally scheduled to complete your trip within 14 hours.

cliff
YIP

Honest question here.

If Rest Period is defined in 135.273 as "the period free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise."

and 135.263 (b) states "No certificate holder may assign any flight crew member to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period."

...and 135.267 (d) states "Each assignment under paragraph (b) (aka:10 in 24) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment."


Is the on call time considered rest time, that is the only way I can make it make any since? Your not doing anything work related while your at home besides waiting for the phone to ring.

 

[Way2Broke]

your 14 hour duty day which can be extended indefinitely if you were originally scheduled to complete your trip within 14 hours.

cliff
YIP

If you plan for under 14 hours, but are expecting a delay to put you over 14 hours than that would be a known delay and then you are not legal. You can not plan to go over the 14 hours, but if the delay is unexpected (weather & I'm still not clear if late cargo falls into this category) then you are legal.

Are late pax/cargo considered to be a legal reason to go over the 14 hours?

 

[pilotyip]

Way2 you are correct rest can not be violated. Late pax is an unexpected delay, late freight, TAC delays, weather etc are all unexpected delay and you can exceed 14 hours of duty. If you are tired you call fatigue. You can exceed 10 hrs of flight time in a 24 hours period provided there is 10 ten hour rest period during the 24 hours and all flight time in excess of 10 hours follows the 10 hour rest period.

 

[Way2Broke]

Way2 you are correct rest can not be violated. Late pax is an unexpected delay, late freight, TAC delays, weather etc are all unexpected delay and you can exceed 14 hours of duty. If you are tired you call fatigue. You can exceed 10 hrs of flight time in a 24 hours period provided there is 10 ten hour rest period during the 24 hours and all flight time in excess of 10 hours follows the 10 hour rest period.

Thats what I was looking for regarding the late pax/cargo/TAC delays/etc. Thanks.

So you can exceed the 10 in 24 as long as within the prior 24 you can look back and find ten hours of rest AND you receive the extended rest required by part 135 (less than 30 mins 11 hours, 30-60 mins 12 hours, greater than 60 minutes, 16 hours) on the tail end. Can that flight time be assigned or must it be "because of circumstances beyond control?"

 

[FlyingMoose]

Honest question here.

If Rest Period is defined in 135.273 as "the period free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise."

and 135.263 (b) states "No certificate holder may assign any flight crew member to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period."

...and 135.267 (d) states "Each assignment under paragraph (b) (aka:10 in 24) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment."


Is the on call time considered rest time, that is the only way I can make it make any since? Your not doing anything work related while your at home besides waiting for the phone to ring.

Absolutely not. Look at the definition you list given by 135.273. You should also reference the many official Opinions, Notices, Rulings, and Letters issued on the matter including the Byrne letters (Assistant Chief Counsel) dated 30 August 1993 and 7 November, 2003, Whitlow Letter (Deputy Chief Counsel), FAA Notice 4910-13, and US Court of Appeals case 99-1888.

A rest period only exists if you are free from ALL responsibility for work or duty SHOULD the occasion arise. Thats pretty clear in itself. If you are on-call you are not free from responsibility for work. Also note, the period has to be prespective, meaning you can't sit around for ten hours and not be called and then after the fact consider that a rest period. Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring is a responsibility to work if your required to do so, i.e. be on-call. If your on-call requirements are like most places with a 1 or 2 hour call-out period (anything less than 10 hours to be specific), then that is the "should the occasion arise" part.

 

[G100driver]

I don't have any rest regs now as I am straight part 91, however my "mr. moneybags" couldn't care even a little bit about how much rest we get. Ultimately we(crew)draw a line and will sacrifice our job for the safety of flight. Also if we are doing a strech day we don't hesitate to get day rooms even if it's only for a few hours.

When I worked in 135 the situation was much worse.

???? Does Mr. Moneybags care about his own safety?

When discussing this with Mr Moneybags it never about you ... it always about him.

Last week The King (our boss) wanted to go out and back from the west coast to east coast in one day. Simple ... hire 2 contract pilots. One flies with one captain, the other flies repositions the night before and flies with the other captain. Why, because it is safer for HIM, HIS associates, and HIS assest. After HE bought a jet for HIS safety.

Once you start talking about things like MY crew rest and I will tired ect you will blow it.

 

[pilotyip]

way2 nope! No extended rest required. Look at this example from 0000 to 0200 you fly 2 hours, you go into rest at 0230 and are legal at 1230, the company then schedules you for 10 hours of flying in next 11.5 hours. When you finish you have flown 12 hours in the last 24. It is legal because there was a 10-hour rest period in the last 24, and all flying that exceeded 10 hours in a 24-hour period was preceded by a 10 hour rest period. Moose you are correct you can not be on rest and be responsible to answer the phone and fly at the same time. Best way to test this ask if you can have a beer since you need 8 hours off after drinking beer and your company will know you are not available. If they say no, it is not rest.