Results of ARC rewrite for Flight and Duty (135)

[FlyingMoose]

Am I getting this right?

The only way to work a 14hr day would be to get the call the moment you go on call. I don't work p135 anymore, but that's not how it was interpreted when I was.

The new rule will definately drive costs up by causing 135's to need to double their crew numbers. Falling salaries would probably follow.

Any other thoughts?

Regardless of how it was "interpreted" when you worked 135, that is exaclty what the current regs dictated then and now. The FAA Regulatory Division, Chief Counsel, Administrator, Flight Standards Service, and Courts have all issued numerous documents, notices, rulings, etc. as to such. They also have been very clear as to the fact that POI's do not have the authority to interpret regulations and never have, their role is to inspect and insure compliance with the regs.

I know for a fact that many POI's and operators have had and continue to have various incorrect interpretations on this matter; but like one of the previous posters suggested I wouldn't want to be the attorney defending the pilot/company that (has an accident) violating this reg.

Let's not forget the whole point is safety. Do you think Mr/Mrs Moneybags wants or would even suspect that a crew that has been setting up all day (with no prescribed rest period) on-call is coming to pick him up late at night and fly him to who knows where for up to the next 14 hours. Thats not the plane I want to be at the pointy end of or worst be in the back of!

As far as cost, if an operator wants to have 24 hour on-demand coverage on every airframe in the fleet and doesn't have enough crews to cover staggered on-call periods, and all the other factors like training, sick-days, PTO, etc. (which most don't have enough for either) AND be in compliance with the current regs and the proposed rewrites, then yes costs are going to go up.

Hey Seadogrun, how are the regs enforced as to rest where you are now?

 

[pilotyip]

unless they change 121, there would be no reason to live under 135 with this supposed new rule. 121 crew rest for supplemental has much more flexibility for crew scheduling.

 

[Seadogrun]

Regardless of how it was "interpreted" when you worked 135, that is exaclty what the current regs dictated then and now. The FAA Regulatory Division, Chief Counsel, Administrator, Flight Standards Service, and Courts have all issued numerous documents, notices, rulings, etc. as to such. They also have been very clear as to the fact that POI's do not have the authority to interpret regulations and never have, their role is to inspect and insure compliance with the regs.

I know for a fact that many POI's and operators have had and continue to have various incorrect interpretations on this matter; but like one of the previous posters suggested I wouldn't want to be the attorney defending the pilot/company that (has an accident) violating this reg.

Let's not forget the whole point is safety. Do you think Mr/Mrs Moneybags wants or would even suspect that a crew that has been setting up all day (with no prescribed rest period) on-call is coming to pick him up late at night and fly him to who knows where for up to the next 14 hours. Thats not the plane I want to be at the pointy end of or worst be in the back of!

As far as cost, if an operator wants to have 24 hour on-demand coverage on every airframe in the fleet and doesn't have enough crews to cover staggered on-call periods, and all the other factors like training, sick-days, PTO, etc. (which most don't have enough for either) AND be in compliance with the current regs and the proposed rewrites, then yes costs are going to go up.

Hey Seadogrun, how are the regs enforced as to rest where you are now?

I don't have any rest regs now as I am straight part 91, however my "mr. moneybags" couldn't care even a little bit about how much rest we get. Ultimately we(crew)draw a line and will sacrifice our job for the safety of flight. Also if we are doing a strech day we don't hesitate to get day rooms even if it's only for a few hours.

When I worked in 135 the situation was much worse.

 

[Way2Broke]

Hi!

The whole on-demand cargo industry, which constitutes multiple tens, if not hundreds of companies, all use the 24 hour on call system.

You can be on call indefinitely (I know a guy who was just #1 on call for about 60 hours until he got a trip) until you come in, then you start your 14 hour duty day which can be extended indefinitely if you were originally scheduled to complete your trip within 14 hours.

cliff
YIP

Honest question here.

If Rest Period is defined in 135.273 as "the period free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise."

and 135.263 (b) states "No certificate holder may assign any flight crew member to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period."

...and 135.267 (d) states "Each assignment under paragraph (b) (aka:10 in 24) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment."


Is the on call time considered rest time, that is the only way I can make it make any since? Your not doing anything work related while your at home besides waiting for the phone to ring.

 

[Way2Broke]

your 14 hour duty day which can be extended indefinitely if you were originally scheduled to complete your trip within 14 hours.

cliff
YIP

If you plan for under 14 hours, but are expecting a delay to put you over 14 hours than that would be a known delay and then you are not legal. You can not plan to go over the 14 hours, but if the delay is unexpected (weather & I'm still not clear if late cargo falls into this category) then you are legal.

Are late pax/cargo considered to be a legal reason to go over the 14 hours?

 

[pilotyip]

Way2 you are correct rest can not be violated. Late pax is an unexpected delay, late freight, TAC delays, weather etc are all unexpected delay and you can exceed 14 hours of duty. If you are tired you call fatigue. You can exceed 10 hrs of flight time in a 24 hours period provided there is 10 ten hour rest period during the 24 hours and all flight time in excess of 10 hours follows the 10 hour rest period.

 

[Way2Broke]

Way2 you are correct rest can not be violated. Late pax is an unexpected delay, late freight, TAC delays, weather etc are all unexpected delay and you can exceed 14 hours of duty. If you are tired you call fatigue. You can exceed 10 hrs of flight time in a 24 hours period provided there is 10 ten hour rest period during the 24 hours and all flight time in excess of 10 hours follows the 10 hour rest period.

Thats what I was looking for regarding the late pax/cargo/TAC delays/etc. Thanks.

So you can exceed the 10 in 24 as long as within the prior 24 you can look back and find ten hours of rest AND you receive the extended rest required by part 135 (less than 30 mins 11 hours, 30-60 mins 12 hours, greater than 60 minutes, 16 hours) on the tail end. Can that flight time be assigned or must it be "because of circumstances beyond control?"

 

[FlyingMoose]

Honest question here.

If Rest Period is defined in 135.273 as "the period free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise."

and 135.263 (b) states "No certificate holder may assign any flight crew member to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period."

...and 135.267 (d) states "Each assignment under paragraph (b) (aka:10 in 24) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment."


Is the on call time considered rest time, that is the only way I can make it make any since? Your not doing anything work related while your at home besides waiting for the phone to ring.

Absolutely not. Look at the definition you list given by 135.273. You should also reference the many official Opinions, Notices, Rulings, and Letters issued on the matter including the Byrne letters (Assistant Chief Counsel) dated 30 August 1993 and 7 November, 2003, Whitlow Letter (Deputy Chief Counsel), FAA Notice 4910-13, and US Court of Appeals case 99-1888.

A rest period only exists if you are free from ALL responsibility for work or duty SHOULD the occasion arise. Thats pretty clear in itself. If you are on-call you are not free from responsibility for work. Also note, the period has to be prespective, meaning you can't sit around for ten hours and not be called and then after the fact consider that a rest period. Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring is a responsibility to work if your required to do so, i.e. be on-call. If your on-call requirements are like most places with a 1 or 2 hour call-out period (anything less than 10 hours to be specific), then that is the "should the occasion arise" part.

 

[G100driver]

I don't have any rest regs now as I am straight part 91, however my "mr. moneybags" couldn't care even a little bit about how much rest we get. Ultimately we(crew)draw a line and will sacrifice our job for the safety of flight. Also if we are doing a strech day we don't hesitate to get day rooms even if it's only for a few hours.

When I worked in 135 the situation was much worse.

???? Does Mr. Moneybags care about his own safety?

When discussing this with Mr Moneybags it never about you ... it always about him.

Last week The King (our boss) wanted to go out and back from the west coast to east coast in one day. Simple ... hire 2 contract pilots. One flies with one captain, the other flies repositions the night before and flies with the other captain. Why, because it is safer for HIM, HIS associates, and HIS assest. After HE bought a jet for HIS safety.

Once you start talking about things like MY crew rest and I will tired ect you will blow it.

 

[pilotyip]

way2 nope! No extended rest required. Look at this example from 0000 to 0200 you fly 2 hours, you go into rest at 0230 and are legal at 1230, the company then schedules you for 10 hours of flying in next 11.5 hours. When you finish you have flown 12 hours in the last 24. It is legal because there was a 10-hour rest period in the last 24, and all flying that exceeded 10 hours in a 24-hour period was preceded by a 10 hour rest period. Moose you are correct you can not be on rest and be responsible to answer the phone and fly at the same time. Best way to test this ask if you can have a beer since you need 8 hours off after drinking beer and your company will know you are not available. If they say no, it is not rest.

 

[Way2Broke]

Thanks for answering my questions Moose and YIP. Very helpful. You only need the extended rest if you fly more than 10 hours in any 14 hour duty day, not if you fly more than 10 hours in any given 24. Got it. I had a bit different scenario going in my head in which the pilots flew more in the 14 hour period than the on you described. Either way we are on the same page.

 

[Seadogrun]

Way2 you are correct rest can not be violated. Late pax is an unexpected delay, late freight, TAC delays, weather etc are all unexpected delay and you can exceed 14 hours of duty. If you are tired you call fatigue. You can exceed 10 hrs of flight time in a 24 hours period provided there is 10 ten hour rest period during the 24 hours and all flight time in excess of 10 hours follows the 10 hour rest period.

My understanding was that a late pax/cargo does not qualify as unexpected delay. If the pax shows up late and causes you not to be able to complete the trip within your legal duty day, then the trip doesn't go. I always thouhgt that unexpected delay was for weather already airborne that causes you to extend your duty day, then requires the longer rest. Once again I haven't flown 135 in a couple of years so it's a little foggy to me.

 

[hammer2]

It is still unknown how the on-demand charter operations are going to comply, but my boss is on one of the boards trying to figure it out. He said the FAA wanted it done last year and if they don't do something soon they are going to start enforcing the rest requirement of 10 hours prior to your scheduled trip (which would mean alot of violations!). We are trying to figure out how to do it without hiring more pilots to cover pop-ups or turning down late evening trips. One thing we are toying with is going to a hard 8-6 off time and then only being able to fly until 8-10 pm should we get a late afternoon trip.

We are a small company that can't really afford to hire enough pilots to make it work effectively (24-7 on call) but we need to be able to serve our clients who have short term needs so we can continue to provide a valuable service. I'm all in the interest of safety and good rest requirements for crewmembers but I hope there is a middle ground somewhere.

If your companies come up with some good alternatives to this issue, please post them so we all can brainstorm!

I'm sorry your company can't afford more pilots. I hope people like your boss don't get their grubby little hands on these new rest rule! I'm tired of being tired. A 14 hr day followed by just ten hrs of rest.... or 10 hrs rest in a 24 hrs period... however you want to look at it is crazy. If companies can't afford to stay in business, because a pilot needing to rest, that company going out of business is a good thing. The alternitive ,or middle ground is MAX TO NEVER EXCEED, ALL OPS OF THAT CREW MEMBER STOPs At 12 HRS OF DUTY!!!!! Duty also defined as on call. We may get some legatimate operators.

 

[pilotyip]

Lets see here how we will handle 135 10-hr rest followed by duty. Since I can only 14 hours, and you are on duty, I want you in the bldg. to able to capture any trip that comes up. So I have to have pilots on a rotating schedule. I want you in here at 0800, no trips by noon, put you back in rest, at 2200 you come back in get a trip at 0300, come back at 1100 the next day. Back in to rest have you come back 2200 again, no trip send you back into rest at 0200, at 1200, I tell you to go into another 10 hours rest, and report into the building at 2200, lucky night trip comes in right away, YIP-MMTO-YIP get back at noon. Are you any less tired than under the present system?

 

[CelticCitation]

I agree with YIPster. Change the rules, change the way they get abused.

The best way to keep in duty is to have enough flying that "on call" is not an issue. Figure that out, and you can write your own checks. If you can't be happy with what one crew can do most days, you probably won't be able to survive in business anyway. Everyone points out that crew costs are a small percentage of the total costs, but fact of the matter is we operate in a high capital, small margin business. If your cost structure necesitates an additional full time crew to do what can be done in a day, your costs are probably too tight to ever get beyond break even anyway. An airplane that has to fly more than a 135 duty day to make money is a liability.

 

[hammer2]

12 on 12 off........

 

[Boilermaker]

I'm sorry your company can't afford more pilots. I hope people like your boss don't get their grubby little hands on these new rest rule! I'm tired of being tired. A 14 hr day followed by just ten hrs of rest.... or 10 hrs rest in a 24 hrs period... however you want to look at it is crazy. If companies can't afford to stay in business, because a pilot needing to rest, that company going out of business is a good thing. The alternitive ,or middle ground is MAX TO NEVER EXCEED, ALL OPS OF THAT CREW MEMBER STOPs At 12 HRS OF DUTY!!!!! Duty also defined as on call. We may get some legatimate operators.

In all honesty, my boss is a great guy. He is trying to figure out the best way to keep us safe and to still be able to provide last minute service to people that need it. What we may end up doing is having to stay overnight instead of departing for home at 2200-2300 hrs for a 2 hr flight home. I am priveleged to work for a guy that doesn't work his guys into the ground but still knows how to have a company that can stay in business for 30 years.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

My understanding was that a late pax/cargo does not qualify as unexpected delay. If the pax shows up late and causes you not to be able to complete the trip within your legal duty day, then the trip doesn't go. I always thouhgt that unexpected delay was for weather already airborne that causes you to extend your duty day, then requires the longer rest. Once again I haven't flown 135 in a couple of years so it's a little foggy to me.

THe above is one reason why -135 needs to be re-written. It is grey and vague as to what is allowed to be a "delay". If it was black and white, everybody would know what the rules were, and mgmt/fsdos wouldn't be allowed to bend the rules to fit what they wanted.

cliff
YIP

 

[rice]

Hi!



THe above is one reason why -135 needs to be re-written. It is grey and vague as to what is allowed to be a "delay". If it was black and white, everybody would know what the rules were, and mgmt/fsdos wouldn't be allowed to bend the rules to fit what they wanted.

cliff
YIP

AMEN!!!!!!!

 

[pilotyip]

Cliff we would just go to 121 and call it a duty break then we can extend the day to 24 hours and if 8 hours flight time is not exceeded, you would not need any rest. You would be ready for 16 hours of duty and 8 hours of flynig the next day.