Response Time

[Prof. ATP]

I am wondering what response times your company requires after you are called for a non-scheduled flight.

I had a "deal" the other day: my status was "available", which is kind of vaguely defined: two of our pilots do this from home, which is 45 minutes away. We are not paid for being "available" unless there is a flight. I was out for breakfast with my kids and there was a pop-up charter, so I took them home, got the neighbors to babysit, and got to the airport about 1h15m later.

The owner says that he thinks that when we are "available" we should leave for the airport as soon as we hang up. To me this is "on call" and I need to be paid, just as we are for Life Flight, which requires an immediate response. I can't see hiring a babysitter because there might be a flight, unless I am being paid. The CP had told me that there was no minimum response time for being available, and explicitly OKed things like long bike rides or visits to our local ski area, which might leave me 1.5 hrs from the airport.

Is there an industry standard on this question? There is going to be a policy change, and I would like to know what the standard is.

[This situation was made worse by the office telling the customer that we would be there ("there" being 600NM away) at an impossible time, so he was angry about being at the airport so early for nothing. We got him to his meeting on time, and he gave us a nice tip.]

 

[Publishers]

Probably one hour unless you are doing international big aircraft trips.

It sort of depends on the kind of company you are with. We used to service auto parts, check haulers, package people, and medical. Wheels up in an hour was the standard of service required and we were geared to do that.

Often we used the on call pilot as dispatch coordinator and if a trip came, he left and gave dispatch to the next one in line.

On weekends, we were more lax as most of the pop ups were not going to happen. 2 hour call outs would have been the norm.

 

[Prof. ATP]

Publishers,

Is the on-call pilot paid?

Prof. ATP

 

[pilotyip]

25 minutes

USA Jet pilots must live within 7 miles of the airport and be in the building 25 minutes after being paged. Being on the pager is not considered duty time, however pilots are paid for being on the pager. It is a flat dollar amount for the month, from $2700/mo to $9000/mo depending upon seat and time with the company.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

USA Jet pilots must live within 7 miles of the airport and be in the building 25 minutes after being paged. Being on the pager is not considered duty time, however pilots are paid for being on the pager. It is a flat dollar amount for the month, from $2700/mo to $9000/mo depending upon seat and time with the company.

WHOA...25 mins!!!!

lord forbid ya gotta take a $hit as they call!

.

 

[avpro91]

I think it all depends on who your work for and how they tell it, whether its in writing or not.

Our company has it in writing that we are on call 6a to 6p and have to be within 45 min of the airport. Now I live 45 min away and usually am further than that by the time i go home and change clothes and get to the airport. Sometimes ill have a unifrom with me if im going to be far away from the house. But eventhough its written that way in our ops manual, usually as long as you get there as soon as you can and let dispatch know if your going to be farther than 45 min away for some reason, they are pretty reasonable. In the two years I've worked here though I think I've only gotten called for an ASAP trip three times. And then it was just when you can get there.

So like I said, it all depends on who you work for and what your doing.

Just my $.02

 

[propilot]

My company expects you to be at the airport within 30 minutes and wheels up no more than 60 minutes after being paged...this is at home and when on the road in a hotel...

 

[HMR]

My company expects you to be at the airport within 30 minutes and wheels up no more than 60 minutes after being paged...this is at home and when on the road in a hotel...

I was under the same rule when I flew BE-20's for a bottom-dweller charter outfit. We weren't paid for on-call and were required to meet the above standards 24/7/365. Days off were retroactive-If you didn't fly, that was your day off. Only about 50% of trips were scheduled more than 1 day in advance. The other 50% were "Get your a$$ in here NOW".

I went to work for another 135 operator that did things right. We could turn the phone off from 6pm-8am. No pager. Very few pop-ups (if ever). We weren't paid for on-call because we weren't required to be near the airport. If I wanted to go surfing or sailing I'd just call dispatch and let them know I'd be away from the phone for a few hours. I don't think there's an "industry standard"

Now that we're pt.91, any trip with less than two-weeks notice feels like a pop-up.

 

[FO4life]

the company I work for... When you are on the pager, you need to be wheels up in 1 hour. However when not on the buzzer and called, If I could not make it in no problem ..... They should have scheduled me.

 

[mavrck]

im on-call 24hours a day, 5 days a week, w 2 scheduled hard days off per week. 1hr response time to the airport. SUX!

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

WHOA...25 mins!!!!

lord forbid ya gotta take a $hit as they call!

.

How long does it take you to "take a $hit"??? You might wanna get that looked at.

To answer the original: I've worked 135 in Lears and we were 'available' 24/7. It sucked compared to my 91 gig now, but at the time it wasn't so bad. The closer you live to the airport the better it is.

Ace

 

[Daveman]

One hour show time (My last 135 gigs). I thought that was standard?
As far as the sheit time. If you're at home with a paper, that's Quality time. I do some of my best work there (in my office).

 

[pilotyip]

The 25-minute call out is part of paying your dues; everyone pays their dues somewhere. After a few years in the on-demand business pilots have credentials to move somewhere else. Our guys go to SWA, JB, AirTran, Kalitta (74's), Spirit. In the old days, it was NWA, DAL, UAL, FedEx, etc. It is one a many career paths to one's ultimate job.

 

[rnobson]

Been around 11 years and have never heard of the 7 mile rule

 

[pilotyip]

Used in the interview process

It is not really a rule, but we tell potential new hires about the 7-mile rule during the interview process to stress how important response time is in our business. If they do not do make the 25 minute time on a regular basis it could lead to the loss of their job. This covers the area from which response time is easily made. I live 2 miles south of the center of the airport and it takes me 20 minutes to get to the airport during rush hour. The further you live from the airport the more prepared you have to be to make the response time. This is a fact in the on-demand business.

 

[flyfastinmy10]

135 charter is very demanding. When soneone is willing to pay what ever to get to where ever. Everyone jumps through hoops. I worked at a company the didn't have enough pilots to fly every a/c at the same time. Most pilots were dual rated. There was never a written rule for availability. This would violate 135 regs. If you are on duty the 14/10 rule applies. The expectation was that you would answer the pager or phone and take the trip if possible. this was a 24/7/365 deal but you had the option to turn down a trip.
If you wanted to advance your pay or equipment you had better be available.
This is the negative of that job but I flew great a/c that were well maintained. I had some really nice trips and a nice expense account. I chose to focus on the good parts of the job, others did nothing but complain about the schedule. It is a stepping stone and that's what I did.

 

[gunfyter]

Most of this on call is a violation of the FAR 135 rest requirements for Non-scheduled operations. If you are on-call or on a pager you are NOT on REST. As you know you have to look back later on and identify 10 hours of rest in preceding 24 hours at the completion of your non-scheduled 135 flight. The time you were on a pager (or within 7 miles of an airport or near a phone) or on call does not qualify as Rest.

 

[HMR]

Most of this on call is a violation of the FAR 135 rest requirements for Non-scheduled operations.

Good point and very true. Have you ever seen this effectively enforced? I remember the POI's at our local FSDO avoided the topic or just said "we'll look into it" when a pilot would complain.

 

[pilotyip]

FAA says it is ok

There are three categories of time. 1. Duty time, max 14 hours in a 24 hour period. 2. Crew Rest during which time crewmembers cannot be assigned any duties. In addition, 3. the one everyone has trouble with is the one that is defined as a non-duty/non rest period following the completion of a legal rest period. During this period, you are available to be assigned duty, but the time does not count as duty time until assigned a duty. In fact, think there is FAA ruling coming out to clarify this for everyone.

 

[Publishers]

Prof,

On call pilots who were dispatch were paid. Everyone was paid a salary plus flight time. The salary was paid for doing things like Jeps and serving as Dispatch when needed.

Whoever was on call as far as first availability was not paid any different just for that.

All in all it was never a problem. Most of our auto parts and packages were Aztec trips and everyone on the premises was checked for them. The jets and king air were more normal passenger except medical.

All line guys were a&ps to make sure the aircraft were ready to go with a standard fueling and if it was really cold, they would have them started and get the thing warming up.

 

[gunfyter]

There are three categories of time. 1. Duty time, max 14 hours in a 24 hour period. 2. Crew Rest during which time crewmembers cannot be assigned any duties. In addition, 3. the one everyone has trouble with is the one that is defined as a non-duty/non rest period following the completion of a legal rest period. During this period, you are available to be assigned duty, but the time does not count as duty time until assigned a duty. In fact, think there is FAA ruling coming out to clarify this for everyo1. ne.

1. Duty time, max 14 hours in a 24 hour period.

There are NO Duty Time limits in nonscheduled 135.

2. Crew Rest during which time crewmembers cannot be assigned any duties.

Correct

3. the one everyone has trouble with is the one that is defined as a non-duty/non rest period following the completion of a legal rest period. During this period, you are available to be assigned duty, but the time does not count as duty time until assigned a duty.

I don't have trouble with it. It is NOT REST. So after say six hours of this non-duty/non rest ... If I am called for a trip... I only have 8 hours of Duty available to complete the trip. This is because Rest ended 6 hours ago. In another 8 hrs it will be 14 hrs since rest ended. So after 6 hours of non-duty/non rest and 8 hrs of duty I LOOK BACK and I find 10hrs of rest in the preceding 24 hours.

The non-duty/non rest is not Duty but it effectively REDUCES the amount of available duty to complete a 135 trip. Once you have been in this non-duty/non rest for 14 hrs... you need to back into REST. You are no longer legal for any duty.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Two hour callout when on schedule but at home. If on the road, whenever they call. But rarely do you not know at least the first half of the days schedule before going to dinner the night before. Two hours seems pretty fair.

Mr. I.

 

[pilotyip]

Part 121 non-sked

Gunguy, it is not duty/not rest, therefore you still have a full legal duty period available when the pager goes off. The same non-duty/non rest applies in the 121 world for non-sked. You are not burning duty until alerted for an assignment. And duty does not start until you show up at the ops counter. "Travel that is local in nature" is consider crew rest. You operate by these rules in the non-sked business or you pick another route to your career goal. For many many pilots the path through the non-sked world has been the path the their career goals. I look at where our pilots have gone UAL, DAL, NWA, JB, FedEx, etc. Spending time in the non-sked is a great career building experience

 

[WillowRunVortex]

You operate by these rules in the non-sked business or you pick another route to your career goal. For many many pilots the path through the non-sked world has been the path the their career goals. I look at where our pilots have gone UAL, DAL, NWA, JB, FedEx, etc. Spending time in the non-sked is a great career building experience

I'm trying to figure out at what point I took a wrong turn.

 

[gunfyter]

Gunguy, it is not duty/not rest, therefore you still have a full legal duty period available when the pager goes off. The same non-duty/non rest applies in the 121 world for non-sked. You are not burning duty until alerted for an assignment. And duty does not start until you show up at the ops counter. "Travel that is local in nature" is consider crew rest. You operate by these rules in the non-sked business or you pick another route to your career goal. For many many pilots the path through the non-sked world has been the path the their career goals. I look at where our pilots have gone UAL, DAL, NWA, JB, FedEx, etc. Spending time in the non-sked is a great career building experience

I don't care when DUTY starts. There are NO duty limits in 135 nonsched. The limitation is REST. You must have 10 hours of look back rest. Time held on reserve on a pager etc.. is NOT considered REST. The only thing I care about is when REST ENDED. It ended as soon as I am required to be ON CALL. I now have 14 hours to do any 135 operations before I need to be put back in REST.

REST is when you are free from duty or the immediate obligation for duty. Therefore time spent REQUIRED to be within 7 miles of an airport or required to answer the phone or a pager is NOT REST.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

REST is when you are free from duty or the immediate obligation for duty. Therefore time spent REQUIRED to be within 7 miles of an airport or required to answer the phone or a pager is NOT REST.

Gunfyter, you are exactly right on the money. However, ALL the operators at YIP screamed to their respective POI's that if their pilots were on duty while they were "on call" they would need three times as many crews. And that would put them out of business. SO the YIP FSDO seems to be politely ignoring this glaring contradiction. Go figure.

 

[pilotyip]

Gunguy what reg are you reading? Of course there are duty limits; 14 hours 135; 16 hours 121. The 135 can fly beyond 14 if the trip is scheduled within the 14-hour duty time. Flt crews both 121 and 135 can also do 91 tail end ferries if they desire after the 14 hours of duty. If they call fatigue we put them to bed.

 

[pilotyip]

Let’s suppose the whole world adopts the pager time is duty stance. How about another look, pilot A who after being put into rest 24 hours ago gets alerted for a trip, he says "Great timing dispatch I just finished by 10 hours rest", I am good for 14 hours give me the MMTO and back trip” Pilot B say “I am sorry I can not take trip I need 10 hours of rest because my duty expired an hour ago” Pilot A makes $100K/yr pilot B makes $34K/yr. Would pilot A be legal? Is doing a 1 in 7 look back to take a 12-hour pay trip illegal? Does it happen in this business?

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I don't care when DUTY starts. There are NO duty limits in 135 nonsched. The limitation is REST. You must have 10 hours of look back rest. Time held on reserve on a pager etc.. is NOT considered REST. The only thing I care about is when REST ENDED. It ended as soon as I am required to be ON CALL. I now have 14 hours to do any 135 operations before I need to be put back in REST.

REST is when you are free from duty or the immediate obligation for duty. Therefore time spent REQUIRED to be within 7 miles of an airport or required to answer the phone or a pager is NOT REST.

I'm not sure, but I think you're saying the same thing another way. Part 135 duty limits are 14 hours consecutive and 16 with 3 crewmembers. Am I wrong? (been a while since I done 135).

Ace

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Gunfyter is actually correct on this. The regulations specify REST time not DUTY time. SO the duty time myth (14) hours is derived from taking your 10 hours of rest out of each 24 hour period (looking back of course) leaving you with the 14 hours of duty time.


What the FAA had in mind with even non-sched when the regs were changed a few years back after it was determined that crews were falling asleep at the wheel was an A, B, and C period. for "on-call----on-duty". Crew A would be on from say 4am til Noon,,,crew B, Noon til 8pm,,,,crew C, 8pm til 4am.