Response Time

[gunfyter]

Call them or page them. Any way you want. After they report for duty they have 14 hours from the time RESERVE started to complete the trip. This means duty will be LESS than 14 hrs.

Example:

Rest begins at 0000Z and ends at 1000Z
Reserve begins 1000Z

Pager goes off and you report for Duty at 1300Z

So Reserve ends at 1300Z

Duty begins at 1300Z and MUST END at or Before 2400Z.

looking back at 24Z you had 11 hrs of duty 3 hrs reserve and 10 hrs of Rest.

You cannot start duty at 1300Z then remain on duty until 0300Z for 14 hrs of duty. if you do that and look back 24 hrs you will NOT find 10 hrs of REST as the FARs require. You will find only 7 hrs rest in preceding 24.

 

[gunfyter]

If the feds actually enforced those regs every Air Ambulance operator would go out of business the next day. Im sure all those midnight lear drivers would love to see the feds do their job but I for one am not gonna hold my breath.

Doesn't there seem to be an inordinate number of on demand air ambulace flights crashing into the mountains by the PGY VOR near Brown Field? Wonder if the crews were tired?

Once the FEDs really enforce this reg... it will be an equal playing field for everyone. Every operator will need to hire more pilots. Medicare just gonna have to pay more for those Air Ambulance flights... And GM and Ford will need to pay MORE for their Just in time emergency delivery of auto parts.

More demand for pilots and we all get more PAY and don't have to live like slaves to a pager. At least not 24 hrs a day.

Of course when the price of charter goes up it will make more sense to some to have their own flight department instead of using charter... therefore there will also be more 91 jobs too.

When all those CFII s get 135 jobs there will then be a shortage of CFIs... CFI pay will go up from the ridiculous pay they command now.

PFT? I think now. There will be SIGNON Bonuses!

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Call them or page them. Any way you want. After they report for duty they have 14 hours from the time RESERVE started to complete the trip. This means duty will be LESS than 14 hrs.

Example:

Rest begins at 0000Z and ends at 1000Z
Reserve begins 1000Z

Pager goes off and you report for Duty at 1300Z

So Reserve ends at 1300Z

Duty begins at 1300Z and MUST END at or Before 2400Z.

looking back at 24Z you had 11 hrs of duty 3 hrs reserve and 10 hrs of Rest.

You cannot start duty at 1300Z then remain on duty until 0300Z for 14 hrs of duty. if you do that and look back 24 hrs you will NOT find 10 hrs of REST as the FARs require. You will find only 7 hrs rest in preceding 24.

OK, then anything that isn't rest is duty? And anything that isn't duty is rest? So, if you haven't been on duty (or standby) and your company tracks you down and asks you to fly, that is when your duty (or non rest) starts, right?

Ace

 

[gunfyter]

OK, then anything that isn't rest is duty? And anything that isn't duty is rest? So, if you haven't been on duty (or standby) and your company tracks you down and asks you to fly, that is when your duty (or non rest) starts, right?

Ace

No. All that is not duty is not rest. But that is how a lot of places are treating it now.

Sure if they track you down and ask you to fly you can go "on duty". You have been in rest as long as you had no obligation to be ready to go on duty or contactable... no obligation to be within 7 miles or even the same state or Country as the airport. No obligation to have been free from alcohol use etc.. and they just happen to find you.

But if you don't want to fly just don't let them find you... or ask them not to call you on your OFF time. Or you should be able to say sorry wish I could help but I just had a beer.

There has to be a stop put to this endless Standby or reserve.

 

[johnny taliban]

Once the FEDs really enforce this reg... it will be an equal playing field for everyone

Now that actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

No. All that is not duty is not rest. But that is how a lot of places are treating it now.

Sure if they track you down and ask you to fly you can go "on duty". You have been in rest as long as you had no obligation to be ready to go on duty or contactable... no obligation to be within 7 miles or even the same state or Country as the airport. No obligation to have been free from alcohol use etc.. and they just happen to find you.

But if you don't want to fly just don't let them find you... or ask them not to call you on your OFF time. Or you should be able to say sorry wish I could help but I just had a beer.

There has to be a stop put to this endless Standby or reserve.

I really, really want to agree with you, but I voted AGAINST bush. I like my money, but I like people to have the right to choose (sex, religion, abortion, etc). But, there's a time and a place for everything. Thanks for the 135 lesson. It was a while ago for me, but it helped me build time and get to where I am now.

Ace

 

[gunfyter]

No worries Ace,

I voted against Bush in 2000... because I thought he was too liberal

 

[rajflyboy]

gunfyter:


"Effectively
Time on the pager (or by a phone on reserve) PLUS subsequent Duty time must be = or less than 14 hrs. Available Duty time is reduced by the time required to be on a pager. Whether you have reported for duty or simply required to be on the pager by the phone or within some distance like 7 miles... the 14 hour clock is ticking"

Thats how you want to interpret the regs but unfortunately that is not how the FAA interprets the 135 rest requirements 99 % of the time. You being on a pager doesn't have anything to do with your rest.

Your best case scenario is for your company POI >> to interpret the reg the way you want him to. Unfortunately you won't find many POI's that interpret it that way. Thats why you can essentially be on call for 24 hours under part 135 regs.

Its all interpretation here. Bottom line is: Your interpretation or mine doesn't mean anything. Its all up to your operators POI! His interpretation is the one that counts.

121 procedures were changed a few years back. They took care of this problem. 121 pilots have shifts for reserve time. It was explained in a prior post. Sounds like you think your working for a 121 company and not a 135 company.

I would think that 135 regs will be changed to make it work more like the 121 operators. It makes sense. Time will tell on this.

Go fly 135 at most any 135 operator in the country and you will find out real quick what reality is. Reality. Its all about Reality. Not your personal interpretation.

Remember 91K isn't part 135. Your making an interpretation on a reg thats not even out yet.

Netjets isn't going to run 91K so don't get your hopes up.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Netjets isn't going to run 91K so don't get your hopes up.

What does that mean?

Ace

 

[pilotyip]

Part 91 subpart K, Fractional operator rules.

 

[rajflyboy]

The company has decided to run most all of the owner trips as part 135 trips. Only on occasion will Netjets run an owner trip as a 91K trip.

Companies have the option of running Part 91K or 135. Most of Netjets new business is 135 stuff anyway. The Marquis Card program is 135.

The 135 and 91K rules are very similar now. Each has the 60% runway rule. It doesn't benefit the company to use 91K over 135.

 

[gunfyter]

Part 91 subpart K, Fractional operator rules.

Yes and I ask again. Do you really think the FEDS intend to have Part 135 COMMERCIAL flights to be Less Restrictive than part 91 PRIVATE FLIGHTS flights?

The FAR 91 K rules are recently written and the language simply more clear what REST is. In the coming rewrite of 135 they will be just as clear... Not being clear does not relieve one of the responsibility to obey their intent.

There is no refuge or relief by operating 135 vs 91K.

This is simply a demonstration for ALL who doubt what REST actually means.

135.273 says... "REST is when you are free from duty or the immediate obligation for duty. " I am not free from the responsibilty for duty while required to be on a pager.

 

[rajflyboy]

Gunfyter:

Its all up to the Company's POI. Exact words written in the FAR's don't mean that much until we have the POI's interpretation. Thats how the FAA works. The regs are very wordy and can be interpreted in different ways.

As far as 91K. The book is still out on that one. We will have to wait and see how the FAA interprets some of this stuff and see if they do change the 135 regs.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Yes and I ask again. Do you really think the FEDS intend to have Part 135 COMMERCIAL flights to be Less Restrictive than part 91 PRIVATE FLIGHTS flights?

The FAR 91 K rules are recently written and the language simply more clear what REST is. In the coming rewrite of 135 they will be just as clear... Not being clear does not relieve one of the responsibility to obey their intent.

There is no refuge or relief by operating 135 vs 91K.

This is simply a demonstration for ALL who doubt what REST actually means.

135.273 says... "REST is when you are free from duty or the immediate obligation for duty. " I am not free from the responsibilty for duty while required to be on a pager.

I have always felt that part 91 SHOULD be more restrictive than 135. Just think for a moment who is flying in 91 vs. 135. Bill Gates...part 91. Fortune 100 execs...part 91. Guy who can only afford to rent a Lear once a year...part 135. Now don't get me wrong, being less rich should not mean your less entitled to a safe flight, however, why should the really, really rich, who buy their own Gulfstream be entitled to anything less in the safety department.



As for this whole 'pager' discussion, get with the times, no one wears a pager, they just have their cell phone with them at all times. Now what do you suggest, should a pilot be forced to turn off his cell and not get calls from his many girlfriends and admirers just so he can be 'off duty'? And what the heck does 'immediate obligation for duty' mean. I bet you can get several legal interpretations of that one.



Ace

 

[gunfyter]

Ace,

Caller ID. Its a beautiful thing.

You taking us off the point though. If someone really wants to know what the FAA considers being in Rest.. I pointed to the evidence in the FARs.

What some POI lets the operators he is charged with being inspector of get away with is something else.

Where I work the POI does not let the company get away with it on FAR 135 flights.... When the issue came up and a showdown resulted. It took letters to the FAA Chief Counsel's office convince the company and the POI what Rest is and is not.

So they decided to operate part 91. Well part 91 is going away for our operations starting in mid February. Endless time on a pager or in reserve will go away too.

 

[rajflyboy]

gunfyter:

You just answered the question >> Why you need a Union in Corporate Aviation

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

gunfyter:

You just answered the question >> Why you need a Union in Corporate Aviation

I agree (somewhat) with you on this one. Although Unions can do a lot of damage, in most operations (91 and 135) there is noone protecting the pilots. The Aviation Director and Chief Pilot can do some of that, but they have their own jobs to protect and therefore have a conflict of interest. Unions don't care who they pi$$ off.

Ace

 

[Sunnfun]

Where I work the POI does not let the company get away with it on FAR 135 flights.... When the issue came up and a showdown resulted. It took letters to the FAA Chief Counsel's office convince the company and the POI what Rest is and is not.

Which companies do operate "by the book" though, i.e. observe time on the pager/cellphone as "on duty"? Does Netjets' 135 ops do that?

I fully concur btw with your interpretation of the regs. But as long as "the competition" isn't forced to obey by it, nobody will. You just need to many more pilots.

 

[gunfyter]

Yes Netjets does that and they know they have to.

On part 91 operations they have some limitations (14 hr duty day) due to union contract but there is endless reserve time still. 91 operations will no longer be available after mid February. And the rest rules of 135 and 91K will finally eliminate this problem.

 

[Sunnfun]

And the rest rules of 135 and 91K will finally eliminate this problem.

Any idea when revised 135 rest rules will go into effect? Do you have any "official" links where I can read more about it?