Response Time

[flyfastinmy10]

135 charter is very demanding. When soneone is willing to pay what ever to get to where ever. Everyone jumps through hoops. I worked at a company the didn't have enough pilots to fly every a/c at the same time. Most pilots were dual rated. There was never a written rule for availability. This would violate 135 regs. If you are on duty the 14/10 rule applies. The expectation was that you would answer the pager or phone and take the trip if possible. this was a 24/7/365 deal but you had the option to turn down a trip.
If you wanted to advance your pay or equipment you had better be available.
This is the negative of that job but I flew great a/c that were well maintained. I had some really nice trips and a nice expense account. I chose to focus on the good parts of the job, others did nothing but complain about the schedule. It is a stepping stone and that's what I did.

 

[gunfyter]

Most of this on call is a violation of the FAR 135 rest requirements for Non-scheduled operations. If you are on-call or on a pager you are NOT on REST. As you know you have to look back later on and identify 10 hours of rest in preceding 24 hours at the completion of your non-scheduled 135 flight. The time you were on a pager (or within 7 miles of an airport or near a phone) or on call does not qualify as Rest.

 

[HMR]

Most of this on call is a violation of the FAR 135 rest requirements for Non-scheduled operations.

Good point and very true. Have you ever seen this effectively enforced? I remember the POI's at our local FSDO avoided the topic or just said "we'll look into it" when a pilot would complain.

 

[pilotyip]

FAA says it is ok

There are three categories of time. 1. Duty time, max 14 hours in a 24 hour period. 2. Crew Rest during which time crewmembers cannot be assigned any duties. In addition, 3. the one everyone has trouble with is the one that is defined as a non-duty/non rest period following the completion of a legal rest period. During this period, you are available to be assigned duty, but the time does not count as duty time until assigned a duty. In fact, think there is FAA ruling coming out to clarify this for everyone.

 

[Publishers]

Prof,

On call pilots who were dispatch were paid. Everyone was paid a salary plus flight time. The salary was paid for doing things like Jeps and serving as Dispatch when needed.

Whoever was on call as far as first availability was not paid any different just for that.

All in all it was never a problem. Most of our auto parts and packages were Aztec trips and everyone on the premises was checked for them. The jets and king air were more normal passenger except medical.

All line guys were a&ps to make sure the aircraft were ready to go with a standard fueling and if it was really cold, they would have them started and get the thing warming up.

 

[gunfyter]

There are three categories of time. 1. Duty time, max 14 hours in a 24 hour period. 2. Crew Rest during which time crewmembers cannot be assigned any duties. In addition, 3. the one everyone has trouble with is the one that is defined as a non-duty/non rest period following the completion of a legal rest period. During this period, you are available to be assigned duty, but the time does not count as duty time until assigned a duty. In fact, think there is FAA ruling coming out to clarify this for everyo1. ne.

1. Duty time, max 14 hours in a 24 hour period.

There are NO Duty Time limits in nonscheduled 135.

2. Crew Rest during which time crewmembers cannot be assigned any duties.

Correct

3. the one everyone has trouble with is the one that is defined as a non-duty/non rest period following the completion of a legal rest period. During this period, you are available to be assigned duty, but the time does not count as duty time until assigned a duty.

I don't have trouble with it. It is NOT REST. So after say six hours of this non-duty/non rest ... If I am called for a trip... I only have 8 hours of Duty available to complete the trip. This is because Rest ended 6 hours ago. In another 8 hrs it will be 14 hrs since rest ended. So after 6 hours of non-duty/non rest and 8 hrs of duty I LOOK BACK and I find 10hrs of rest in the preceding 24 hours.

The non-duty/non rest is not Duty but it effectively REDUCES the amount of available duty to complete a 135 trip. Once you have been in this non-duty/non rest for 14 hrs... you need to back into REST. You are no longer legal for any duty.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Two hour callout when on schedule but at home. If on the road, whenever they call. But rarely do you not know at least the first half of the days schedule before going to dinner the night before. Two hours seems pretty fair.

Mr. I.

 

[pilotyip]

Part 121 non-sked

Gunguy, it is not duty/not rest, therefore you still have a full legal duty period available when the pager goes off. The same non-duty/non rest applies in the 121 world for non-sked. You are not burning duty until alerted for an assignment. And duty does not start until you show up at the ops counter. "Travel that is local in nature" is consider crew rest. You operate by these rules in the non-sked business or you pick another route to your career goal. For many many pilots the path through the non-sked world has been the path the their career goals. I look at where our pilots have gone UAL, DAL, NWA, JB, FedEx, etc. Spending time in the non-sked is a great career building experience

 

[WillowRunVortex]

You operate by these rules in the non-sked business or you pick another route to your career goal. For many many pilots the path through the non-sked world has been the path the their career goals. I look at where our pilots have gone UAL, DAL, NWA, JB, FedEx, etc. Spending time in the non-sked is a great career building experience

I'm trying to figure out at what point I took a wrong turn.

 

[gunfyter]

Gunguy, it is not duty/not rest, therefore you still have a full legal duty period available when the pager goes off. The same non-duty/non rest applies in the 121 world for non-sked. You are not burning duty until alerted for an assignment. And duty does not start until you show up at the ops counter. "Travel that is local in nature" is consider crew rest. You operate by these rules in the non-sked business or you pick another route to your career goal. For many many pilots the path through the non-sked world has been the path the their career goals. I look at where our pilots have gone UAL, DAL, NWA, JB, FedEx, etc. Spending time in the non-sked is a great career building experience

I don't care when DUTY starts. There are NO duty limits in 135 nonsched. The limitation is REST. You must have 10 hours of look back rest. Time held on reserve on a pager etc.. is NOT considered REST. The only thing I care about is when REST ENDED. It ended as soon as I am required to be ON CALL. I now have 14 hours to do any 135 operations before I need to be put back in REST.

REST is when you are free from duty or the immediate obligation for duty. Therefore time spent REQUIRED to be within 7 miles of an airport or required to answer the phone or a pager is NOT REST.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

REST is when you are free from duty or the immediate obligation for duty. Therefore time spent REQUIRED to be within 7 miles of an airport or required to answer the phone or a pager is NOT REST.

Gunfyter, you are exactly right on the money. However, ALL the operators at YIP screamed to their respective POI's that if their pilots were on duty while they were "on call" they would need three times as many crews. And that would put them out of business. SO the YIP FSDO seems to be politely ignoring this glaring contradiction. Go figure.

 

[pilotyip]

Gunguy what reg are you reading? Of course there are duty limits; 14 hours 135; 16 hours 121. The 135 can fly beyond 14 if the trip is scheduled within the 14-hour duty time. Flt crews both 121 and 135 can also do 91 tail end ferries if they desire after the 14 hours of duty. If they call fatigue we put them to bed.

 

[pilotyip]

Let’s suppose the whole world adopts the pager time is duty stance. How about another look, pilot A who after being put into rest 24 hours ago gets alerted for a trip, he says "Great timing dispatch I just finished by 10 hours rest", I am good for 14 hours give me the MMTO and back trip” Pilot B say “I am sorry I can not take trip I need 10 hours of rest because my duty expired an hour ago” Pilot A makes $100K/yr pilot B makes $34K/yr. Would pilot A be legal? Is doing a 1 in 7 look back to take a 12-hour pay trip illegal? Does it happen in this business?

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I don't care when DUTY starts. There are NO duty limits in 135 nonsched. The limitation is REST. You must have 10 hours of look back rest. Time held on reserve on a pager etc.. is NOT considered REST. The only thing I care about is when REST ENDED. It ended as soon as I am required to be ON CALL. I now have 14 hours to do any 135 operations before I need to be put back in REST.

REST is when you are free from duty or the immediate obligation for duty. Therefore time spent REQUIRED to be within 7 miles of an airport or required to answer the phone or a pager is NOT REST.

I'm not sure, but I think you're saying the same thing another way. Part 135 duty limits are 14 hours consecutive and 16 with 3 crewmembers. Am I wrong? (been a while since I done 135).

Ace

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Gunfyter is actually correct on this. The regulations specify REST time not DUTY time. SO the duty time myth (14) hours is derived from taking your 10 hours of rest out of each 24 hour period (looking back of course) leaving you with the 14 hours of duty time.


What the FAA had in mind with even non-sched when the regs were changed a few years back after it was determined that crews were falling asleep at the wheel was an A, B, and C period. for "on-call----on-duty". Crew A would be on from say 4am til Noon,,,crew B, Noon til 8pm,,,,crew C, 8pm til 4am.