Resigning from ALPA

[Clyde]

How much does your union contribute to industry safety? ALPA's saferty and engineering dept is recognized and respected Worldwide! The AMR and SWAPA pilots buy the services of ALPA's economic and financial analysis dept. Does your union use ALPA contracts to negotiate with your company? (who doesn't, but I'm sure ALPA uses yours as well) Do your union leaders have the audience of the National politicians, where the perameters of our careers are controlled? I'm not saying your in house union is bad, but neither is ALPA, and ALPA contributes worlwide to the aviation industry.

I'm not sure where you were going with this, because my post dealt with me being represented by a particular union. I never mentioned anything about industry contributions.

But, since you brought it up, my union has contributed and continues to contribute more to aviation safety than most realize. Now given, we are not as big as ALPA, so we are not going to be recognized in the same capacity.

I'm not exactly sure what our negotiators are using with the company, they are keeping a tight lid on things and informing us when the time is right. However, I'll say this much: we do look at what pilots at other carriers are making. We also look at our own company's financial well being and use that pretty heavily when working out a contract.

"Do your union leaders have the audience of the National politicians, where the perameters of our careers are controlled?"

We have an audience of the right people that we need to be in contact with. National politicians aren't exactly the best people either. When push comes to shove, they are going to side with management, not labor.

ALPA isn't a bad union, it's one that I would not want to be a part of. I like the fact that I pay dues to a union that deals only with my airline. 100% of my union's attention goes to one company and one pilot group. They are looking out for the interests of our pilot group only.

As far as what services we buy from ALPA, I don't know if we do. But I will say this: since I've been here (and I've been involved at the union offices too), I have never heard anybody mention even one time of any services purchased from ALPA.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Did you get Jame's permission to repost?

I should probably point out that I am not James, but I agree with everything he says in this letter. This is a re-post from another source. Radical solutions for radical times..........

I hope you obtained his permission to post his letter. I am sure he stands behind his words, but may not appreciate you putting it in a public forum without permission.

Jeff

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

"Do your union leaders have the audience of the National politicians, where the perameters of our careers are controlled?"

We have an audience of the right people that we need to be in contact with. National politicians aren't exactly the best people either. When push comes to shove, they are going to side with management, not labor.

Well that is my point. The fact is all of the perameters that effect our career are handled on CapHill. National politicians may not be the BEST people, but they are the ones and only who will craft the legislation and vote on it. (I do want to ask, you say you have an audience of the right people, who are they?) In addition you are resigned to give up before you even get started. Politicians listen to labor....they are voting consituents... And alot of them are Repubs!!

RLA=federal=CapHill

Does your union have a PAC office and professional lobbyist to go and talk to these politicans? If not, then ALPA (and the APA) is speaking for you whether you like it or not. In fact, the United pilots understand this well enough to get their own in house PAC! But don't get mad at the UAL pilots for knowing how the legislative system works and using it!

Cabatoge, FFDO, security, off line jumpseat and AGE 60 just to name a few are being decided on Cap Hill. Where is your say on these issues? You don't have one. And that may be fine with you. And that is ok too.

In an idealistic world, all airline pilots would give to ALPA-PAC or APA PAC or, they would create the independent Airline Pilots PAC (IAP-PAC) or whatever it may be.

AOPA understands this as well. Their first few magazine pages are loaded with "what AOPA is doing on CapHill" They have a PAC and it is effective.

Bottom line... money talks, something else walks.... If you are not involved on CapHill in some form you are just a spectator in your airline career.....

 

[Clyde]

Well that is my point. The fact is all of the perameters that effect our career are handled on CapHill. National politicians may not be the BEST people, but they are the ones and only who will craft the legislation and vote on it. (I do want to ask, you say you have an audience of the right people, who are they?) In addition you are resigned to give up before you even get started. Politicians listen to labor....they are voting consituents... And alot of them are Repubs!!

RLA=federal=CapHill

Does your union have a PAC office and professional lobbyist to go and talk to these politicans? If not, then ALPA (and the APA) is speaking for you whether you like it or not. In fact, the United pilots understand this well enough to get their own in house PAC! But don't get mad at the UAL pilots for knowing how the legislative system works and using it!

Cabatoge, FFDO, security, off line jumpseat and AGE 60 just to name a few are being decided on Cap Hill. Where is your say on these issues? You don't have one. And that may be fine with you. And that is ok too.

In an idealistic world, all airline pilots would give to ALPA-PAC or APA PAC or, they would create the independent Airline Pilots PAC (IAP-PAC) or whatever it may be.

AOPA understands this as well. Their first few magazine pages are loaded with "what AOPA is doing on CapHill" They have a PAC and it is effective.

Bottom line... money talks, something else walks.... If you are not involved on CapHill in some form you are just a spectator in your airline career.....

"(I do want to ask, you say you have an audience of the right people, who are they?)"

Not too long ago, the company issued a press release announcing, among other things, record profits and no labor issues. They said the talks with the pilots union was a non-issue, when in reality they were dragging their feet.

The union was able to get in touch with some big Wall Street analysts. They interviewed us and got the correct story of how our contract negotiations were going. Investors on Wall Street heard and listened as did the company, as it grabbed their attention in a very big way, because a lot of people started to realize that the negotiations were far from a non-event. Shortly after that, the negotiations started showing some progress on the side of the company.

The right people sometimes are not necessarily the one's in DC, but the ones on Wall Street. When you have the ability to somehow influence the stock price, a lot of deaf ears suddenly start hearing again.

"Politicians listen to labor....they are voting consituents... And alot of them are Repubs!!

RLA=federal=CapHill"

I agree, that it is good to have at least some connections in DC, and we do have some there. But, we also have our eggs spread out evenly among the baskets too.

"Cabatoge, FFDO, security, off line jumpseat and AGE 60 just to name a few are being decided on Cap Hill. Where is your say on these issues? You don't have one. And that may be fine with you. And that is ok too."

Actually, we do have a say. Our union has contacts and we are heavily involved with CAPA. We are not sitting by the wayside letting everyone else speak for us.

"In fact, the United pilots understand this well enough to get their own in house PAC! But don't get mad at the UAL pilots for knowing how the legislative system works and using it!"

This next comment may stir the pot a little, but I will speak anyway. First, I don't want to be involved in the same union that UAL is involved with. One reason is pensions. ALPA cannot do anything to even salvage a little bit for the UAL pilots. According to our latest union update, us and the company are close to an agreement on our pensions, and it is for the better, not worse. If UAL pilots know the legislative system so well, how come they are getting screwed by the airline AND the federal government on their pensions?

And with regards to off-line jumpseats, our union has been very heavily involved with the CASS program and very proactive in getting it in working order.

"Bottom line... money talks, something else walks.... If you are not involved on CapHill in some form you are just a spectator in your airline career....."

I agree, and that is why we have a presence there. ALPA is there too, but I wouldn't say they are speaking for us, they are speaking WITH us. We are far from being spectators.

 

[RJP]

http://www.pilotpensiondefense.org/Documents/ALPA%20Officer%20Compensation.htm

Some of the highlights of DWs package.

$412,728 pay per year

Monthly Allowances: Housing $4,500, Meals $1,500, Travel and Incidental $1,500
New Lincoln LS every two years, Taxes, Tags, Insurance, Maintenance are paid by ALPA. Fuel is also paid for if used on ALPA business.

Retirement for 8 years as President $149,000+. Plus he keeps his airline pension.

Wow, I feel even worse now.

His "meals" allowance is as much or more than I TAKE HOME on any given month.

And that's BEFORE union dues.

 

[FoxHunter]

I mean where was the opposition when it was enacted? Oh yeah, that was in 2002, when everyone still had hopes an dream of making a similiar salary at UAL and DAL. What timing. UAL MEC approves a chilling TA and all of sudden the Nat'l officers salaries are inapproriate.

.

Where was the opposition when it was enacted? Who knew? Did I not read about the terms in any MEC/LEC publication/notice? NO! The details were never released to the membership, why? I believe it is because members would be outraged. Just the pension alone is over the top. What else don't we know about? Is this just the tip of the iceberg? I think every single ALPA member should be emailed a copy of this document? Do you think the national leadership will agree? Not a chance.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Rez O. Lewshun;


Are you a DC9 " mainline RJ " Capt for NW?

PHXFLYR

 

[FoxHunter]

Wow, I feel even worse now.

His "meals" allowance is as much or more than I TAKE HOME on any given month.

And that's BEFORE union dues.

Hmm, I wonder if DW has to pay dues? Whaddya think?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Where was the opposition when it was enacted? Who knew? Did I not read about the terms in any MEC/LEC publication/notice? NO! The details were never released to the membership, why? I believe it is because members would be outraged. Just the pension alone is over the top. What else don't we know about? Is this just the tip of the iceberg? I think every single ALPA member should be emailed a copy of this document? Do you think the national leadership will agree? Not a chance.

The agenda of the association is available for its members. Always has been. When our LEC officers told the membership they were going to the ALPA BOD...they couldn't even get everyone to stop talking to be heard...

Look, I am not saying the National salaries are right or wrong, but if it really mattered you guys wouldn't wait for the message boards to tell you about it, then claim you were kept in the dark until now! C'mon, you're pilots, take some repsonsibility.....

The industry is imploding on the pilots and the big issue is union salaries?? WTFO? After you fix them, then what? What is next?

Get involved... look in the mirror.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

"(I do want to ask, you say you have an audience of the right people, who are they?)"

Not too long ago, the company issued a press release announcing, among other things, record profits and no labor issues. They said the talks with the pilots union was a non-issue, when in reality they were dragging their feet.

The union was able to get in touch with some big Wall Street analysts. They interviewed us and got the correct story of how our contract negotiations were going. Investors on Wall Street heard and listened as did the company, as it grabbed their attention in a very big way, because a lot of people started to realize that the negotiations were far from a non-event. Shortly after that, the negotiations started showing some progress on the side of the company.

The right people sometimes are not necessarily the one's in DC, but the ones on Wall Street. When you have the ability to somehow influence the stock price, a lot of deaf ears suddenly start hearing again.

"Politicians listen to labor....they are voting consituents... And alot of them are Repubs!!

RLA=federal=CapHill"

I agree, that it is good to have at least some connections in DC, and we do have some there. But, we also have our eggs spread out evenly among the baskets too.

"Cabatoge, FFDO, security, off line jumpseat and AGE 60 just to name a few are being decided on Cap Hill. Where is your say on these issues? You don't have one. And that may be fine with you. And that is ok too."

Actually, we do have a say. Our union has contacts and we are heavily involved with CAPA. We are not sitting by the wayside letting everyone else speak for us.

"In fact, the United pilots understand this well enough to get their own in house PAC! But don't get mad at the UAL pilots for knowing how the legislative system works and using it!"

This next comment may stir the pot a little, but I will speak anyway. First, I don't want to be involved in the same union that UAL is involved with. One reason is pensions. ALPA cannot do anything to even salvage a little bit for the UAL pilots. According to our latest union update, us and the company are close to an agreement on our pensions, and it is for the better, not worse. If UAL pilots know the legislative system so well, how come they are getting screwed by the airline AND the federal government on their pensions?

And with regards to off-line jumpseats, our union has been very heavily involved with the CASS program and very proactive in getting it in working order.

"Bottom line... money talks, something else walks.... If you are not involved on CapHill in some form you are just a spectator in your airline career....."

I agree, and that is why we have a presence there. ALPA is there too, but I wouldn't say they are speaking for us, they are speaking WITH us. We are far from being spectators.

Good post and reply. Glad you are educated and involved! It doesn't matter if it is ALPA, ALPO, APA, SWAPA, IPA or whoever, just as long pilots have a voice locally and on the national level....

 

[FoxHunter]

The agenda of the association is available for its members. Always has been. When our LEC officers told the membership they were going to the ALPA BOD...they couldn't even get everyone to stop talking to be heard...

Look, I am not saying the National salaries are right or wrong, but if it really mattered you guys wouldn't wait for the message boards to tell you about it, then claim you were kept in the dark until now! C'mon, you're pilots, take some repsonsibility.....

The industry is imploding on the pilots and the big issue is union salaries?? WTFO? After you fix them, then what? What is next?

Get involved... look in the mirror.....

Geez, I seem to get posted messages a few times a month from the MEC Chairman, Vice Chairman, and others holding office. I can guarantee you that 90%+ of ALPA members were not aware of National salaries. I suggest that the isssue should be discussed in the next issue of Airline Pilot, think that will ever happen? Just keep sending your dues, have faith, right!

 

[sleepy]

Also FALSE.

Well that is the way it worked at my former ALPA carrier.

 

[philo beddoe]

The problem I see with the unity issue is that it assumes that we all want the same things, or even something clse to the same things.

Suppose all the alpa pilots got together and decided we were finally going to 'do something'. Even if we could agree on what action to take, how could we all agree on when to 'settle'.

The "all or nothing" folks are maybe 10-20% of the group
The "most of what we wanted" group maybe 60%
The "oh my god, I can't lose my job just sign the dang TA!!" group - remaining 20% or so.

We are all going to "cave in" at different points, so could we ever be really unified? I really wonder about this.

 

[TonyC]

Well that is the way it worked at my former ALPA carrier.

Not all contracts are created equal.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Geez, I seem to get posted messages a few times a month from the MEC Chairman, Vice Chairman, and others holding office. I can guarantee you that 90%+ of ALPA members were not aware of National salaries. I suggest that the isssue should be discussed in the next issue of Airline Pilot, think that will ever happen? Just keep sending your dues, have faith, right!

as I said, if it was a big issue, you would have found out on your own accord instead of the message boards... (cause you really concern yourself with ALPA Affairs! )

But now that you know, call your MEC and ask.... Find out why and maybe it will make sense. Or maybe you can find out how to change it.....

 

[sleepy]

Not all contracts are created equal.

Isn't that ALPA's biggest problem? Some are more equal than others, but then there is always somebody out there that will do it for less pay.

 

[Mugs]

I love how ALPA will now try to convince the bankruptcy court and the PBGC that the pensions should be wiped out and left for the tax payers. I thought the United guys/gals were the strongest of the bunch and like a deck of cards they fold. I for one don't want to be left holding the bag for failed ideas and greed.

I got a better idea then. How about the UAL pilots fight the company despite the checkmate position they are in, and guarantee a CH7? It is guaranteed, by the way, since all the potential financial instituions have clearly stated that exit financing will not be available without the elimination of the pension plans. Then, you the taxpayer can still bail out the PBGC and you can help pay unemployment benefits for the 65,000 employees that wake up one day all out of work at the same time? Sound good to you genius?

 

[TonyC]

Isn't that ALPA's biggest problem? Some are more equal than others, but then there is always somebody out there that will do it for less pay.

I'd say it's a strength. If every airline was identical, then I suppose the contracts could be identical. However, what works for Delta might not work for United, and most probably would not work for FedEx. What works for FedEx might be totally unacceptable at NorthWest. MECs negotiate contracts, not ALPA national. ALPA national provides expertise and resources, but ultimately it's the folks the pilots elect that do the work.

ALPA national is an easy target if you're discontented, but your arrows should be aimed closer to home.

 

[StaySeated]

I'm Wrong again, as usual...

I stand corrected, fedex was not an alpa carrier when I was a gung ho union volunteer/negotiator. I should have said "every carrier on the planet except fedex has agency shop". Merry New Year! Beef Jerky?

 

[sleepy]

I'd say it's a strength. If every airline was identical, then I suppose the contracts could be identical. However, what works for Delta might not work for United, and most probably would not work for FedEx. What works for FedEx might be totally unacceptable at NorthWest. MECs negotiate contracts, not ALPA national. ALPA national provides expertise and resources, but ultimately it's the folks the pilots elect that do the work.

ALPA national is an easy target if you're discontented, but your arrows should be aimed closer to home.

I no longer have a dog in this fight, but as a former ALPA member looking at this from the outside I must say that ALPA really has nobody to blame for this mess but themselves. ALPA allowed the codesharing, then allowed two levels of representation (the haves and the have-nots). Now market forces are dictating pilot pay and benefits based on the lowest bidder.

What you really need is a national contract that sets an industry standard for each segment of the industry. Of course this will only work if ALPA controls the majority of the labor commodity.